(.400 member)

27/11/12 09:46 PM

Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Hello All,

I'm hoping someone can help me. I've been offered a cased Dan'l Fraser Double Rifle in 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R. It was cased with a few accessories. I don't have access to the rifle right now, and have only basic memory information based on my last seeing the rifle 4 weeks ago.

I do recall seeing the 2-line original Caliber and Cordite loading data stamped on the bottom of each barrel. And, in between the caliber and load data was stamped the 9.3x74R caliber and then after the Cordite data, it had the 9.3 loading. All the stampings were professional "one-line" stamped and not "single-letter" stamped.

Would this indicate that the conversion was done by a larger retailer / builder as opposed to a basement gunsmith?

I can't recall the type of the action or barrels, etc. But it was marked Fraser. I've never owned a double rifle of any kind so I really don't know what to look for before buying. Any information or guidance as to what detailes I should look for would be appreciated.

(.450 member)

27/11/12 10:26 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

"All the stampings were professional "one-line" stamped and not "single-letter" stamped.

Would this indicate that the conversion was done by a larger retailer / builder as opposed to a basement gunsmith?"

Not really.

IF the conversion was done in an EU country or a country where guns have to be proofed (as opposed to the US), then
it should have reproof marks or symbols on it - as well as the info you said is already stamped on it.

Each country uses different symbols for proofing so no point is listing them all. If UK done, it should have the new load in Lbs per Squ Inch or something like that.

A photo of the barrel flats would be best - would take 2 minutes to sort it out.

Re calibre conversions, not a problem if done correctly.

A lot of Rigby's were done in the 70's and 80's to 9.3 and 375 Flanged Magnum. I have one.
Can't think of the guy who did it but he now builds Doubles under the Jeffrey name and used to under the Rugby name.

If the conversion was done in the US, I would like to know who. If someone like JJ at Champlin Arms, all well and good.

I am sure others will be along with more advice.

Can you get a photo ?

or a link to the gun if on a web site ?

(.400 member)

27/11/12 10:36 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Thanks for the reply,

Sorry, no photos. I can only go by memory. I'm going to be seeing the rifle in person again on Thursday, and was hoping to get some pointers to look for when I get my hands on it again. I don't seem to recall that the 9.3 stamping had any reference to Lbs or even a "load". I think one line had "9.3 x 74R" and another line had a only a "bullet weight".

I will look for other countries proof marks, I'm very familiar with most from my collecting European cartridge revolvers.

When you say not a problem with "caliber conversion" if done properly, would you know how this affects value?

Are there different kinds of Fraser actions on double rifles that I should look for?

Thanks for your help.

(.450 member)

27/11/12 10:42 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Value
It would have slightly decreased value compared to
100% original.

If you are going to see it, can you take a photo ?
Do you have a mobile phone ?

Fraser actions - like any english maker, they will or did make what was ordered by the customer.

Fraser did have a style though. Suggest do a google search or look on guns international, Champlin Arms etc.

(.400 member)

27/11/12 11:03 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Hello 500Nitro,

Thank you.

When you say slightly decreased value compared to 100% original, would you say, 10%, 15%, 20%, ?

I've been searching the net for the last week but can find very little info on Fraser Double rifles except for the few with "very big" price tags. I'd like to see different action types if they made them. Side-lock, Box-lock, etc.

I will likely buy (or trade for) the Fraser Double this coming weekend, but I don't like to go in totally blind. I'm just not familuar at all with doubles, but think I might get a "deal" on this one since its been altered from original. I think Fraser is a good name, correct?

I recall that the leather trunk case did not have a "Fraser" label inside the cover, and that the label name was British, perhaps being that of a retailer. Maybe this is who did the conversion to 9.3.

(.400 member)

27/11/12 11:14 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

I'd want to shoot it to make sure it was regulated.

(.400 member)

27/11/12 11:23 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Hello casper50,

Shooting won't be an option on this deal. This is going to be pretty much, a cut & dried, "look-at-it" and "get-it" - kind of deal. A real crap-shoot on my part. Just trying to dot the I's and cross the T's.

I've found references to Fraser doubles selling for $17,000 up to $65,000. I'm trying to determine the features that affect value.

(.416 member)

28/11/12 01:05 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Buckstix, unless you are getting into this gun very reasonably, I would do your best to get the seller to agree to a three day inspection period. That way, you could shoot it over the weekend and get a better idea of what you are dealing with. A double that won't regulate can be a very frustrating exercise and being your first, could put you off doubles completely.
One positive is that the 9.3X74R is not too different from the original 360 ballistically. You may find that the Fraser is bored for a slightly bigger bullet than the .366" bullet of the 9.3. Maybe .368" but I am not sure if this will have much effect in shooting it.

Take a good look at the bores. That is one area that can hurt value - bad bores.
Fraser made doubles in different grades and on different actions as 500Nitro says and yes, Daniel Fraser rifles in best grade are as good as any so if bought right, you probably aren't going out on a limb too badly.
A Fraser in 9.3X74R would be a very usable rifle here in the states.
Good luck! Keep us posted.

(.400 member)

28/11/12 01:42 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Thank you Huvius,

As mentioned, shooting is not an option. This will be a "fast" transaction and a "gamble" for me. Like most people, I'm looking for a "big strike" for a "modest" investment.

Is there anything that I can look for to determine what grade this might be? Features that would be more valuable or desirable. Like, ejectors vs extractors - Side-lock vs Box-lock - etc.

I really have no clue about Fraser.

(.450 member)

28/11/12 02:12 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

"Is there anything that I can look for to determine what grade this might be? Features that would be more valuable or desirable. Like, ejectors vs extractors - Side-lock vs Box-lock - etc.

I really have no clue about Fraser. "

Most people are the same, Frasers are really hard to work on
value wise IMHO (well for me).

By the way, what are they asing $$$ wise, we can at least say if you are in the ball park or way over the top.

Ejectors worth more.
Sidelock worth more than boxlock.
(Just remember that Fraser made best boxlocks - if that can be done !!! - and so his best is still up there even if a boxlock.
Engraving adds value
Condition adds value

"As mentioned, shooting is not an option. This will be a "fast" transaction and a "gamble" for me."

I don't like the above, especially for the first time buyer.
Experienced but maybe, we might take the risk.

Don't want to deter you but I am surprised they won't let you shoot it ? Do they know something they are not saying ?

Have they shot it ?

Back in 4 hours to look at the answers.

.

(.300 member)

28/11/12 02:44 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Both .500Nitro and Huvius offer sound advice - especially, since we're flying blind on this one. Bore condition on any double rifle is paramount in valuation, and may be more relevant to valuation than a conversion itself. The decrease in valuation due to conversion is subjective, but I'd guess 20%. That's strictly a swag on my part and would depend on other characteristics of the rifle, the case, and accessories (bullet moulds, a Davidson telescopic site in Fraser mounts, etc.). I like my Fraser's, and I'm an avid shooter and hunter, not just a collector. I use my Scottish rifles regularly in the field. Even so, a cartridge conversion would certainly prompt me to offer considerably less. Best of luck!

(.400 member)

28/11/12 02:46 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

As mentioned, doubles that won't regulate are trouble. Double trouble = money, lots of money sometimes. If you can't get a solid "it will regulate with a __" group at __yards" or at least a 3 day inspection I'd pass. Do you know how many people have been burned trying to make a "big strike" for a little money? Lots more than have made the big strike.

(.400 member)

28/11/12 02:54 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Quote:

By the way, what are they asing $$$ wise, we can at least say if you are in the ball park or way over the top.

The seller has it priced at 17K USD but that is mute since he has expressed an interest in a couple of my items. I have far, far, less than that invested in my items.

Quote:

"As mentioned, shooting is not an option. This will be a "fast" transaction and a "gamble" for me." .............................................................................

I don't like the above, especially for the first time buyer.
Experienced but maybe, we might take the risk.

Don't want to deter you but I am surprised they won't let you shoot it ? Do they know something they are not saying ?

Have they shot it ?

The seller is very trustworthy and I have done trades with him before, ... and this one just recently.

see: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=299688#Post299688

I see this as possibly yet another opportunity for me, so I'm trying to get a fast education on Frasers. The last deal with the Alex Henry was a real "windfall" for me.

(.450 member)

28/11/12 03:07 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

buckstix

The gun wouldn't be in Australia or sold by someone in Australia would it ?

Reason for asking is I know of a Daniel Fraser double converted to 9.3 that is for sale for US$17k.

OK re trade, understand now, at least you know who you are dealing with. That is different to some joe blo down the road trying to flog something.

(.400 member)

28/11/12 03:18 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

No, I found that one in my internet searching. That one is suppose to be documented as converted by J. Rigby. This one has no such documentation and resides nearby where I live.

Is that one you mention for 17K in US dollars, or Austrailian dollars?

(.450 member)

28/11/12 03:51 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

"Is that one you mention for 17K in US dollars, or Austrailian dollars?"

US dollars.

Also to consider, the seller is a personal friend
of mine and 3 things.

1. Everything he owns is top notch, top of the tree
in terms of condition etc.

2. That gun has it's history, is cased with accessories.

3. His prices haven't changed for 10 years, regardless
of the exchange rate. Reason being, he isn't that interested in selling so take the $17k with a pinch of salt.

Unless it is a top notch gun - and I would use the one discussed above as a comparison - then I would say $17k
is a bit much unless all good.

It's a pity I didn't have more time as I could have got a photo of the NEW re proof marks of the one above and you could use it to compare to the one you are looking at.

.

(.400 member)

28/11/12 03:58 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Quote:

It's a pity I didn't have more time as I could have got a photo of the NEW re proof marks of the one above and you could use it to compare to the one you are looking at.

Yes, that would sure help me. Is there any chance he could send you a photo of the bottom of the barrels?

(.416 member)

28/11/12 05:40 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

The way I see it, if you are comfortable doing the deal, then go ahead. Your Henry is certainly top notch IMO and if that is indicative of the quality your man is into, you probably don't have much to worry about.
That is what working a trade is all about and if you feel that you have the opportunity to get into something you otherwise couldn't, and come out ahead value wise, then go for it!

(.450 member)

28/11/12 06:18 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Quote:

Yes, that would sure help me. Is there any chance he could send you a photo of the bottom of the barrels?

I doubt it but I will ask.

I'll see if I have a photo of my Rigby barrels
as they will have similar. Probably done similar time
as well as he had racks of them (Doubles that had been rebored).

(.375 member)

28/11/12 07:25 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Sometimes you just have to roll the dice. You asked your questions seen the photos and done some comparisons. It is difficult to purchase a gun that is out of the country, always some degree of risk. Isn't that a bit of the fun?

(.400 member)

28/11/12 08:22 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Hello gatsby,

Yes, I understand that. I've been dealing in guns for over 45 years. But a little guidance goes a long way to help the odds.

I'm looking for those "little facts" that I can look for, to determine if this is the "lowest" quality or a "better" quality double rifle.

(.450 member)

28/11/12 08:30 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

OK RE "I'm looking for those "little facts" that I can look for, to determine if this is the "lowest" quality or a "better" quality double rifle."

Boxlock

If the gun has a chequered side panel BEHIND the
edge of the boxlock action, an indicator of a higher grade.

More to follow.

(.375 member)

28/11/12 08:32 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

I think I know your seller and have dealt with him before. He's a pretty solid guy. Something attracted you to this gun, what was it?

(.450 member)

28/11/12 08:33 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

This gun has them
http://www.gunsinternational.com/DANL-FRASER-BEST-SXS-RIFLE-450-400-3-1-4.cfm?gun_id=100288670

Also, see the carved fences.

and Stalking safety

On the other hand, just to confuse everything, this gun is also called "best" but doesn't have two of the above but it does have scalloped fences !!!

http://www.gunsinternational.com/DANIEL-FRASER-Best-Boxlock-Double-Rifle.cfm?gun_id=100222520

(.450 member)

28/11/12 08:34 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

By the way, I like Frasers and a good Fraser
is still worth owning.

(.400 member)

28/11/12 08:58 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Hello Gatsby,

I don't think you know this seller. He is here in the central states, and so is the rifle.

(.400 member)

28/11/12 09:07 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Hello 500Nitro,

Thanks, those are the kinds of things I can use. Tell me more.

I've been making some "crib notes" and little things like this can be worth noting so I can perceive the value, and lack of them can make for a little "leverage" to get a better "deal."

I've had several people tell me "any" Dan'l Fraser is worth owning.

Is that because he made so few compared to other makers of the day? Is this a factor? Are there any books about Double Rifles that give these kind of details about Daniel Fraser Doubles?

(.375 member)

28/11/12 09:19 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Sorry, I misread your answer to 500nitro ie the gun being out of the country. If the gun is in the States, it should be easy to get a valuation from one of several gunsmiths or an in hand personal inspection. Why no inspection period?

(.450 member)

28/11/12 11:00 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

No, dont know of any books.

Agree ANY DF D/R is worth owning.

Someone here can correct me if i am wrong BUT I think DF
made best grade BOXLOCKS but of such high quality.
A bit like Trigger plate actions and WR Droplocks are considered high grade guns even though "technically" boxlocks".

Here are a few more
- Scalloped actions in Westley Richards are generally a higher grade of gun. Hence my comment. Where a gun is scalloped, it makes it harder to put checkered panels on the side as they don't have a straight line of the action to work with - and IMHO, you don't need both !!!
- Staling safety - some low grade guns have them. I have a low grade WR boxlock that has it !!! Why - because it was built as a hunting rifle !!!

Remember, in the days these guns were made, a lot were made to order so a gunmaker made what the customer wanted - chosen by funds available or features wanted.
That is why we have a saying, in the English gun trade
everything is possible !!!

Re the gun here in Aus, I just remembered, it went
to a guy in NZ !!! (I forgot it was a while ago - sorry !!!).

(.450 member)

28/11/12 11:01 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Here is a DF gun with 2 sets of barrels
and old and modern proof marks.

All be it Euro proof marks.

http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/view_lot_info.asp?lot=2341-327

Also, it is a very nice gun.

Also shows you another shape of actions used by DF.

.

(.400 member)

28/11/12 01:47 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Hello 500Nitro,

I also saw the 2-barrel set gun and copied the proof marks into my crib notes. I'll be seeing the gun on thursday late afternoon. Perhaps I can post pictures later that evening and get some preliminary info prior to doing a trade on Friday. If not, I'll be posting the details of how the transaction turned out.

Keep the value tid-bits coming, I'll keep adding to my crib notes.

(.450 member)

28/11/12 02:32 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Download this pdf document.

http://www.google.com.au/url?url=http://...WZY_8bRz3FM6hUg

Has most of the common proof marks on it that
you are likely to see on that gun

EXCEPT the reproof marks if UK done in the 70's !!!

(.400 member)

28/11/12 06:31 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Thank you, I have it in my crib notes.

(.400 member)

30/11/12 05:21 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

CHECK YOUR PRIVATE MESSAGES

(.400 member)

02/12/12 01:02 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Hello All,

I want to thank all of you that helped educate me with the Dan'l Fraser Double rifle. I finalized the deal and am now the proud owner of the following Daniel Fraser rifle. I wrote the description based on how the auction houses do it, and have listed pictures of my newly acquired rifle. I think this covers all the features. If I missed anything, please let me know, and be sure to tell me if you think I did good. This is my very first Double rifle.

(.400 member)

03/12/12 12:38 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

I've never seen a set of DR barrels with the rib set back that way. It might grow on me. Other than that a very nice rifle. Well done/\.

(.400 member)

03/12/12 09:37 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Hello Casper50,

Thank you for your comment.

I'm not entirely sure of this, but "every" Nitro Express Daniel Fraser Double rifle that I've seen pictured on the internet has the rib set-back from the muzzle like mine.

see this link .... 4th picture.

The caption reads, "Crowns on a Dan'l Fraser double rifle with rebated rib---theoretically to avoid bullet deflection from asymmetrical gas dispersion as the bullet leaves the muzzle."

http://www.hallowellco.com/crown.htm

If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.

(.450 member)

03/12/12 10:29 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Holland do it as well on some guns.

(.400 member)

04/12/12 11:19 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Hello, and thanks to all.

For those interested, I've now moved on to trying to get the rifle to shoot, and I have shown some pictures of the unique modified chambers of this rifle.

see the following for a continuation of this saga.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=220829&an=0&page=0#Post220829

(.400 member)

10/12/12 11:56 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

I discoved the floorplate screw was loose, but before tightening it, I looked inside and found that the parts inside this box-lock action are 24K Gold Plated. The ejector parts inside the forearm are also 24K Gold plated. I wonder if this makes it a "Best Quality".

(.416 member)

10/12/12 12:32 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Quote:

...I wonder if this makes it a "Best Quality".

I know what you mean.
IMO, by most standards, Fraser made only "Best Quality". In design and execution they are tops in my book.
Some Frasers got the gold treatment and others did not. Same goes for Fraser single shots.
Not sure if that was something the purchaser could specify or just that some got it and others didn't.
I would like to see some period Fraser literature to see if the gold plating is mentioned anywhere.
Anybody here know for sure?

(.375 member)

09/01/13 01:00 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

I'd bet money that Paul Roberts of Rigby's in London "recut" the chambers on this rifle. He converted lots of "360's" to 9.3 X74R back in the 70's and 80's , when you couldn't get brass for the 360's.
Robert

(.400 member)

09/01/13 01:27 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Hello bwanabobftw,

Would you have any idea how I might contact Paul Roberts to find out?

(.450 member)

09/01/13 01:34 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Type Paul Roberts, W J Jeffrey into Google
and he should come up.

(.375 member)

10/01/13 05:00 AM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Yes , that would be the best way. He has the rights to Jeffery and still does business in London.
Good Luck ,
Robert

(.400 member)

10/01/13 03:51 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

Hello bwanabobftw and 500Nitro,

I searched but could not locate an email address. If you know of one, please let me know. thanks.

(.450 member)

10/01/13 04:07 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

I think you might find he's old school
- emails are a PITA to a business like his.

Try picking up the phone or sending a fax.

(Sponsor)

10/01/13 07:39 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

buckstix,

Here you go.
Paul Roberts (J Roberts & Son)

(.300 member)

10/01/13 08:22 PM

Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info

I have found Roberts very helpful - I have an old WJ Jeffery double 410 and they gave me the full history.

And picking up on your comments re reloaded slightly hard to close / leaver not snapping to the middle On the other discussion i had the same on 7x65r. New RWS cartridges, easily closed and lever shaped across, on reloading some were a bit sticky. I found that the case length had increased, not by much, and not out of spec but just enough interfere with the end of the chamber. At the next reload I made very sure that the case holder had firm contact with the bottom of the die, and then trimmed them to length. Next batch no issues at all, and indeed were shooting even better.

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