| Westley375 |
| (.300 member) |
| 27/03/12 12:09 PM |
Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Yes we all know splinter forends are traditional but does a larger (beavertail) have any advantages ? I have large hands and my fingers do wrap around the barrels (and get in the way of my line of sight) and you need to hold on with a 470 NE. whatayouthink?
CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 27/03/12 12:38 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter.
Curl
| Cazadero |
| (.375 member) |
| 27/03/12 01:50 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Traditional smishonal
My hands are such that a nice beaver tail provides a better grip and thusly a better shot.
Same with my Browning Field Model and Winchester 21
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 27/03/12 01:54 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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I get a better grasp on the barrels with a splinter.
I feel the rifle looks better with the slim forend too.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 27/03/12 02:19 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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An over/under will give you the larger fore end. If you haven't got one then this is a legitimate excuse to buy one now.
Large fore ends are illegal on side by side doubles in the US, and punishable by death in some states I believe
well, maybe it should be...I have small hands so my fingers don't obscure the sighting on my Merkel SxS. I do wear gloves on both hands now when shooting on the range. The left hand glove is to prevent coming in contact with the uncomfortablly hot barrels (8 shots reasonablly quickly leaves the barrel quite hot, and especially if sharing the rifle with someone else who has already fired 8 through it).
(Black powder burns much hotter by the way, and you really can't shoot competition with a black powder SxS without gloves, no matter how deep your voice is.)
The right hand glove has the trigger finger part cut-off and is used to minimise impact of the rear of the trigger guard against my middle finger - besides the gloves come in pairs and I'd looking silly only waering the LH one.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 27/03/12 02:37 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Quote:
Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter. Splinter.
Curl
| Mike_Bailey |
| (.400 member) |
| 27/03/12 05:37 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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I donīt care how big your hands are, you can still hold a double with a splinter without blocking the sights !! Possibly George Foreman might have an issue ? Splinter only my good friend
best
| HogPilot |
| (.300 member) |
| 27/03/12 06:13 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Splinter! Anything other preference is a sign of certain latent tendencies!
| gryphon |
| (.450 member) |
| 27/03/12 07:52 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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geez what happened to freedom of choice? I better say splinter too!
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 27/03/12 08:57 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Quote:
An over/under will give you the larger fore end. If you haven't got one then this is a legitimate excuse to buy one now.
I had the same thought also. A really nice O/U is not to be shunned. It will give you plenty to hang onto in comfort. The classic is the Merkel 323E.
Oh, and by the way, I do have one double rifle with a slim beavertail forend. So freedom of choice does exist. Does that mean I'm a bad person?
Curl
| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/03/12 01:55 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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The problem with the beaver-tail apart from being ugly is all the recoil is transmitted to the latch. With the splintered you should be holding onto the barrel.
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 28/03/12 02:39 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Curl -- I'll take that .300 double rifle for a while to wash your hands of the beavertail.
| xausa |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/03/12 03:08 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Beavertails, as I recall, were introduced for the benefit of trapshooters, who wanted to protect their fingers from the extremely hot barrel temperatures which trapshooting, particularly doubles, creates.
If you feel that you have to have greater protection and don't want to destroy the lines of your double gun, may I suggest this, which I have found most helpful: http://www.jeffsoutfitters.com/_HAND1005...p;categoryid=73
| HogPilot |
| (.300 member) |
| 28/03/12 03:17 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Quote:
The problem with the beaver-tail apart from being ugly is all the recoil is transmitted to the latch. With the splintered you should be holding onto the barrel.
That's 100% correct and the recoil / latch issue becomes more of a problem in the heavier recoiling rifles.
| Westley375 |
| (.300 member) |
| 28/03/12 04:12 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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I have never heard of anyone having a recoil /latch problem among the DR shooters I know. Some have Beavertails on 470 & 500's as do I....if there is a problem , it is a poorly made rifle. My friend who is a Sports Medicine Doctor says,"ergonomically speaking the Beavertail fits and fills a persons grasping hand better than a splinter.A better grip is achieved by filling the gripping hand and the muscles become less efficient when holding a smaller diameter object". Why do you suppose new makers V/C, Heym, Chapuis etc build DR's with beavertails....there must be a reason beside "style" Watch DVD's currently out on Dangerous Game and you'll see PH's carrying mondern DR's with Beavertails and I have never heard one say "gee I wish this had a splinter" I have shot my Chapuis 470NE well over a 1000 times (can many of you honestly say that ?)and have never had any problems with the forend or anything for that matter. Having shot a few Buff and a couple Elephants with my 470 and I feel I have a better grip on the gun with a Beavertail and its checkering. I have shot Big Bores with splinters and found that because of the barrels smoothness, the gun slides back in my forehand at least a little no matter how tightly I hold the gun. And Beavertails are not "ugly". It is like the old adage says "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"
| gatsby |
| (.375 member) |
| 28/03/12 04:32 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Quote:
I have large hands and my fingers do wrap around the barrels (and get in the way of my line of sight) and you need to hold on with a 470 NE. whatayouthink?
You don't need a beavertail,you need a bigger gun maybe a 10, 8 or 4 bore rifle
| Huvius |
| (.416 member) |
| 28/03/12 04:38 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Quote:
... Why do you suppose new makers V/C, Heym, Chapuis etc build DR's with beavertails....there must be a reason beside "style"
My guess is that those builders can utilize common forend blanks and CNC shaped forends for both rifles and shotguns that way.
I personally prefer the splinter on English guns.
I did own a Genossenschaft double with a really nice middle ground shaped forend. Not splinter and not a beavertail. Seemed very appropriate on a European gun.
| doubleriflejack |
| (.333 member) |
| 28/03/12 04:58 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Amazing how emotional some of you guys can get on this issue. Personally, I have no problem switching between using splinter and using beavertail on different rifles, for different shooting conditions, though I prefer the artistic lines of a rifle with splinter. However, I believe that I can shoot as accurately with both.
I believe that the literature tells us that the original British sxs double, with English stock, of course, had a splinter, because the splinter and English stock matched well for shotgun shooting, keeping both hands in line. When the pistol grip stock appeared, it was found that the beavertail was a better match combination, keeping the hands more inline for better shotgun shooting.
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 28/03/12 05:03 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Back in the '70's I had a Beretta Silver Hawk 12 gauge with a "semi-beavertail" forend. This was of the 1960's production. The problem of all recoil being transferred to the forend became readily apparent with that shotgun. The latch didn't give out, but the wood did. The wood was attached to the forend iron by a couple of screws. Repeated recoil caused those screws to wallow out their holes. The wood became loose of the iron and required appropriate repair. Fortunately for me it didn't split and was capable of repair.
If you properly mount a double rifle or double shotgun, most grasping occurs on the barrels ahead of the splinter forend. For a beavertail to cover the typical grasping area it will be loooong and uuuuuuuugly.
The original post requested opinions. My first paragraph is based on fact, the second contains opinion (but not overly emotional, I'm glad to say).
Tinker I can make you a fine deal on that rifle. I have too many. It has not been fired since my May 2005 bear hunt, I'm ashamed to say.
Curl
| Ben |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/03/12 07:32 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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I imagine my Merky .500NE is somewhere in between? Is that right? Anyway, I like mine, whatever it is, and it is the best double I can afford.
| HogPilot |
| (.300 member) |
| 28/03/12 10:32 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Ben, I imagine if your Merkel 500NE is like mine, it's a pure splinter!
I've shot mine 1,000 times easily at this point. Several of those 1000 shots killed a few Elephant and Buffalo as well. I wonder if the good Sports Medicine Doctor is a Double Rifle shooter? As a matter of fact, I have in fact heard several DR owners say they wish their rifles had a splinter fore-end. What I haven't heard is "I wish this had a beavertail"!!
I also have a Chapuis with the beavertail. IMO, there is no comparison in comfort between the two. The splinter looks and feels better in the hand.
As far as what the new companies are building, they will build what you want! I have a VC 500NE Round Body being built right now with a splinter. Should arrive sometime this fall.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/03/12 02:26 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Just did some googling and found this:
http://www.hallowellco.com/beavertail_and_splinter_forends.htm
Says "The closer one's hand is to the line of the bore and to the line of sight, the better one's hand-to-eye coordination.". That kinda makes sense - wonder it it's true?
| Westley375 |
| (.300 member) |
| 28/03/12 02:41 PM |
Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Hogpilot..you probably embarassed them into saying "I wish I had a splinter"
And Yes the "good" Doctor is a DR shooter and a Damned good one at that !! You are entitled to your opinion like everyone else and that's why I started this thread. You know what they say "opinions are like a**holes ...everybody has one !! A Chapuis with A BEAVERTAIL...why on Earth would you still own such a horribly hideous and useless weapon ?? Several people responded saying the Beavertail feels good to them and they shoot accurately with it...and isn't THAT what is most important? About the forend becoming loose, this rarely happens since the majority of the rearward force is against the Receiver NOT the forend latch. CPTCURL'S problem with his Silver Hawk forend was mainly due to the fact that this was not one of Beretta's better made guns...as a gunsmith this I know. Several people (like Doubleriflejack) responded that they shoot very good with the Beavertail and it feels good in their hands and really isn't that what it is all about? Certainly an Elephant or a Buffalo doesn't give a damn that a Beavertail or Splinter DR sends him crashing to the ground.
| RLI |
| (.375 member) |
| 28/03/12 03:56 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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I have used both splinter and beavertail on the same model rifle a William Douglass .470 and I would say I prefer the beavertail, I always thought the splinter was the way to go in use and traditional looks but my vote is for the beavertail .............
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 28/03/12 04:24 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Curl-
The JW is tempting
I am tardy on a call to you anyway
Maybe I'll ring you later in the week
Cheers
Tinker
| Mike_Bailey |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/03/12 07:02 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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My old man used to tell me when I was a kid to never try and change a mans mind about "religion, politics or red headed women". Maybe we should include forends, splinter or beaver, into that equation
best
| ozhunter |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/03/12 08:53 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Splinter for me.
| Rigby350 |
| (.300 member) |
| 28/03/12 09:48 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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From a practicality point of view, if you measure the width of your garden variety SxS 12bore with a splinter forend, somewhere in the middle of the forend, you get a measurement of around 5.3cm. If you take your average 470 with a beaver tail forend and measure at approximately the same point, you end up with a figure in the vicinity of 5.5cm.
Generally speaking, if the garden variety 12bore with a splinter forend is comfortable and easy to point, I would say that your 470 with a beaver tail would be just as comfortable, seeing the grip radius is just about the same. Fom an aesthetic point of view, that comes down to personal preference and we can argue that point till we are blue in the face.
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 29/03/12 01:09 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Quote:
About the forend becoming loose, this rarely happens since the majority of the rearward force is against the Receiver NOT the forend latch.
It seems to me you don't understand the nature of the forces at play. With the beavertail forend, the hand grasps only wood, that is to say, only the forend and not the barrels. When the rifle recoils, the forend meets resistance from the forward hand. The effect is the same as if the forward hand shoves the forend forward. Thus the unwanted stress to the latch and other forend parts is a forward force working on the rear of the latch and its lug. It is not a rearward force at all.
Quote:
CPTCURL'S problem with his Silver Hawk forend was mainly due to the fact that this was not one of Beretta's better made guns...as a gunsmith this I know.
From my personal observation this explanation doesn't carry the day.
Westley375, you seem adamant in favor of a beavertail. That suits me fine. I have good friends who fawn over Parker shotguns with forends as big as a saw log. In their eyes it's beautiful. In my eye it's butt ugly. The question is answered 90% by personal preference, and on that we are absolutely entitled to satisfy ourselves.
Curl
| Westley375 |
| (.300 member) |
| 29/03/12 11:11 AM |
Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Curl- When I started this thread I expected some passionate responses. But very few really gave any factual info ...so I came to the conclusion it really is mostly a personal preference thing. I was not "adamant" about Beavertails just trying to get some real facts ....I thought adamant was typing "splinter" 67 times. I have the Maharaja of Alwar's Westley Richards 375H&H and I think it is the most beautiful Double rifle I have ever held and it has a SPLINTER forend !!!
| MaxGera |
| (.275 member) |
| 29/03/12 11:23 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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When I was making the Gera Doubles, I made the prototype with a Beavertail forend. I wanted to give it a definite American look. I wasn't very happy with the look.
If I recall correctly all the others had the Splinter forend.
| HogPilot |
| (.300 member) |
| 29/03/12 11:25 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Westley,
You're correct in that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have to admit, when I first started learning about double rifles, I didn't like the splinter fore-end. Didn't know how to hold the barrels, had no understanding of history and nostalgia of the old English guns, etc. For me, the splinter was a bit like Single Malt Scotch in that is was an acquired taste and since becoming familiar with them, it's just what I prefer now.
But rest assured, in a pinch, I'll still drink a Chivas Reagal.
Cheers man!
| Westley375 |
| (.300 member) |
| 29/03/12 11:39 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Hogpilot-- tis a shame we may never meet for I have some 25yr old MacCallan that tastes even more delicious with a Double Rifle in your lap....Cheers to you Sir !!
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 29/03/12 12:45 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Quote:
I thought adamant was typing "splinter" 67 times.
Ha, ha I thought my post conveyed a certain humor. That's what was intended. I typed the word only twice. Then I selected my two "splinters", hit Ctrl-C (for "copy"), then hit "end" and then hit Ctrl-V (for "paste") quite a few times. Actually, I held down the Ctrl key and just pecked on the "v". I didn't count. 67 you say? Not bad!
Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad! Not bad!
Curl
| Westley375 |
| (.300 member) |
| 29/03/12 01:30 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Ok now I laugh.... I guess Iam too dim or too serious sometimes. Cheers to you as well Sir !!
| zimhunter |
| (.333 member) |
| 29/03/12 01:40 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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You have to realize on these forums the early English double rifle is the only speciman of double rifle that can be considered legitimate. And since the English were proponents of the splinter forearm you must accept that that form is the only one that can be considered as being authentic. The people on this forum are absolutely the final word in experts on the double rifle and you should not even ask such a question of them. How dare you even presume that the beavertail would be more comfortable or give you better control when that is an absolute false hood. Many more questions such as that and you could possibly be banished.
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 29/03/12 02:00 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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I've seen this before elsewhere.
It at times appears as if there are vulnerable feelings around this subject.
Go figure.
Heaven forbid some of you guys get caught with a lefaucheux actioned SxS bore rifle in your hands.
End times...
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 29/03/12 02:24 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Quote:
Heaven forbid some of you guys get caught with a lefaucheux actioned SxS bore rifle in your hands.
Now those fore-ends were definately only to stop the barrels falling off when you opened the action. Not to mention black-powder (read "hot fingers") and the steel buttplate (read "oweee").
| ruffcountry |
| (.300 member) |
| 29/03/12 03:53 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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I've always had a thing for red-headed women .
| underlever |
| (.300 member) |
| 29/03/12 04:17 PM |
Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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double rifle fore-ends are like women, some slim, some not. It just comes down to what you like the feel of, and the looks. Both types can give untold pleasure.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 29/03/12 06:09 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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And fore ends are actually better because they don't get jealous - you can feel grasp and admire another fore-end and they don't care
| kamilaroi |
| (.400 member) |
| 29/03/12 08:26 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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In SxS a close circumference continental style pistol grip requires a chubbier fore-end in an attempt to retain a single plane between both hands. In the English fashion with a laid back grip a splinter or semi splinter is preferable. As for fore-end fasteners I prefer the old Rigby syle lever over the other two.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 29/03/12 09:46 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Quote:
I've seen this before elsewhere.
It at times appears as if there are vulnerable feelings around this subject.
Go figure.
When someone asks for opinions and thoughts they are liable to get them.
If others find those opinions and thoughts confronting, tough.
For me personally I really dislike beavertail forends. I wouldn't own a side by side with one, also they are not ideal for good natural pointing in my opinion. Most likers of beavertails are American shooters. Interesting to see the majority of responders for splinter forends on this thread were also American.
Not a problem, everyone to their own tastes.
If the comments makes people feel threatened ??? I guess they should stick to beavertails and leave all the good looking guns and rifles to the rest of us.
My Simson Suhl 12 g s-by-s has a forend in between, but closer to a splinter forend. But the whole shotgun is a cheapie.
My Tikka Under and Over has an ugly chubbie forend, the whole DR/Shotgun is a cheapie. Interesting this rifle/shotgun is the one where the forend sometimes comes loose under recoil.
100% prefer a splinter forend.
| Birdhunter50 |
| (.375 member) |
| 30/03/12 10:09 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Westley375,
I have shot guns with both types of forends and for me, I like the semi beavertail, I hope this is not seen as some kind of compromise. If I had to choose one of the other of the two types you mentioned, I would take the full beavertail. I have heard this arguement about splinter versus beavertail till I'm sick of hearing it. I think that the main reason the Brits put splinter forends on their rifles is because that's also the type they were putting on their shotguns at the time. Lets face the fact too, that they were in the business to make money,and the splinter forend is dead easy to make and fit compared to a nice beavertail.
There is much to be said for the lining up of the hands on the same plane, IF we are talking about instinctive shotgunning at flying game using a straight hand english stock, but I don't feel that that has anything to do with a well aimed shot from a double rifle with a pistol grip on it.
I have heard all the hokum about the stress and strain on the forarm if it was made as a beavertail, but I have yet to hear of one that actually failed in the field. My best advice to you is to get the one that feels best and shoots best for you, no matter what these guys tell you. It's your gun, and this is not a popularity contest, shoot what works best for you. Bob
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 30/03/12 01:50 PM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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For me, a splinter feels best with a straight grip, the semi-beavertail with a pistol grip.
Seems to me, which one is usually a totally a personal requirement or preference.
| Proffitt |
| (.224 member) |
| 04/04/12 07:52 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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On anything splinter. I have big hands, but the beavertail has always seemed clunky and shifty, and my shooting suffers. Just remember if you plan to shoot a lot with splinter, splinter, splinter take gloves, gloves, gloves...or enjoy the sizzle.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 05/04/12 02:26 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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I find with beavertails forends, the grip is one the forend, not the barrels, due to the width of the forend. I prefer the barrel grip as that puts my eye and sights on the target spot.
Gripping below the barrels on a big forend makes me want to raise the barrels above the target spot when I snap the gun to my shoulder. It takes time to then drop the barrels so the sights align - this slows target aquisition and isn't comfortable - for me.
Whether the gun has a pistol grip or not doesn't seem to matter.
| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 08/05/12 06:02 AM |
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Re: Opinions wanted....Beavertail or Splinter on a DR
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Quote:
Yes we all know splinter forends are traditional but does a larger (beavertail) have any advantages ? I have large hands and my fingers do wrap around the barrels (and get in the way of my line of sight) and you need to hold on with a 470 NE. whatayouthink?
Westley375, you did ask for "OPINIONS" right? Well you got pleanty of them, they just don't agree with yous! Live with it, and use what you want.
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