| NE450No2 |
| (.375 member) |
| 19/10/04 06:38 AM |
The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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Many posters are always asking which new rifle to buy? what calibre? double of bolt? Many say they cannot afford a double, especially since most people think they will not use a big bore double that much. While I would want a bigger gun if I was a PH, or if I knew I was going to make multiple trips to Africa and shoot multiple buff and elephant, There is one calibre double that bears taking a look at.
I have been using a 9,3x74R Chapuis double rifle for over 6 years. I have 2 scopes for it, a 2.5-8 Leupold with the heavy duplex, and a Swarovski 1.5-6x42 with the illuminated circle dot reticle. Both are in QD mounts.
This rifle just may be the best Allround rifle on the Planet. There might be times when you might want a more powerful rifle [as stated above], and it might not be the best antelope, sheep and goat rifle, but if you can aford those types of hunts, you can afford more rifles.
For everything else including brown bear and the occasional buffalo or elephant the 9,3x74R will do the job, and it is not too big for all the other stuff. It is a rifle you can use on almost every hunt.
My Chapuis weighs 7 1/4 lbs without the scope. It handles like a fine .410 shotgun. The stock works well with iron sights and fits perfect with the scope. My rifle is the UGEX, the lowest price of the Chapuis. The 9,3x74R's are usually much less expensive than the bigger bores.
I have used loads from 193 grains to 300 grains. Mostly I use 286 grain bullets.
I have taken skunks, armadillos, jackrabbits, beaver, bobcat, coyotes [all problem animals in some areas], turkeys, wild pigs, deer, blackbear, impala, jackel, civetcat, klipspringer, baboon, waterbuck, and kudu.
Shots have been taken at ranges from 5 yards to just over 300 yards. The 9,3 kills big game well, and yet does not destroy a lot of edible meet on the smaller big game.
I have found the fast handling and the quick one-two shots from this double rifle to be far superior as a hunting rifle over a bolt action, or any other action type.
Many times I have taken 2 animals at the same time with a quick right and a left, other times I have been able to put 2 shots into an animal before he was able to get out of sight behind cover. I could not have made those shots with a bolt rifle.
The double rifle takes down for travel, making it less likely to be damaged in baggage. You could even break it down and put it in your pack if hunting in rough steep country, or after the kill when carrying out game.
I know there are several members here that have 9,3 double rifles [and some with 375H&H doubles], that can add to what I have said, [feel free to do so
].I suggest anyone thinking about a new rifle give a 9,3x74R double rifle some serious thought.
Be advised however
.... after you use it for a while you may find 90% of your other rifles obsolete. 
| ThomasEdwards |
| (.300 member) |
| 19/10/04 12:34 PM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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...i think that you have said it well, and would add the following comments...
...you can usually add an extra pair of 20 gauge smooth bore barrels to most 9.3x74r actions to make for a true 'one gun' kit for world-wide hunting exploits...
...for anything less than big bore dg doubles (read .450ne, .470ne, etc.), i also believe that the 9.3x74r is the way to go for the reasons that you have suggested...some additional reasons include the ready availability of ammo and brass (as opposed to, say, the .375 flanged), the fact that the cartridge uses a rimmed case and the mild recoil that most 9.3's are able to achieve (thus assisting in sight acquisition, aim and followup shots)...
...having read the literature (especially 'the perfect shot' by doc robertson (?)), looked at the ballistics charts (especially norma's charts), and used the cartridge in the field, i believe that the 9.3 is a superior bullet sectional density-wise, and may well achieve superior results and ballistics (especially penetration) at distances in excess of 100 yards (when compared to, say, the .375 flanged or even factory loaded .375hhs)...
...just some personal observations...
| Chasseur |
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| 19/10/04 01:04 PM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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As a fellow Chapuis 9.3x74r owener I endorse your recomendations
I would add the 9.3x74r is a very pleasant cartridge to shoot both on the shoulder and the wallet. Its a good cartridge for a wide variety of game and will not beat the hell our of you when you use it. Also when reloaded not too expensive either. Great double for North America, Europe or wherever. I'd love to go to Africa one day and try it out on a duggaboy...
Though I must admit I've had some problems with Chapuis, both in the finishing of my rifle and their abismal customer service... I'd still recomend the caliber in a nice double rifle, but I perhaps would recomend another maker. In hindsight I wish I would have gotten a Heym or Demas...
| NE450No2 |
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| 19/10/04 02:25 PM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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Chasseur
What problems have you had with the company and your Chapuis double?
| NE450No2 |
| (.375 member) |
| 19/10/04 02:31 PM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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Thomas
You are correct. If I knew then what I know now I would have bought a higher grade Chapuis [I really like pretty wood
] with an extra set of 20 ga. bbls and maybe another extra set of bbls in 20ga by 9,3x74R. I have found having a rifle and a shotgun in your hands at the same time to be handy in Texas, Montana, and Alaska.
| bonanza |
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| 19/10/04 11:23 PM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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Gent's I don't have a Chapaius or 9,3x74R, but I do own a Merkel 375H&H 140-2 Safari. The gun is nearly perfect. It was less than $8000 new, the fit and finish is flawless, has an unconditional 5 year warrenty, and shoots like a house of fire. I recently competed in the Big Game Club Match at Lodi and walk away with 3 trophys. I won the nitro 1 class, pulled a second in charging animal and snap (8 shots in 35 sec.) competing against bolt guns with scopes! And I did not do that sissy one barrel shooting. I shoot both barrels.
Now, what about the 375 H&H? It packs more punch than the 9,3 when you need it, but can be loaded way down, as I do with my 235 grain soft points. My one/two shots are lightning fast. Finally, it only cost me $0.75 per shot.
| mickey |
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| 20/10/04 12:25 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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In reply to:
Now, what about the 375 H&H? It packs more punch than the 9,3 when you need it, but can be loaded way down, as I do with my 235 grain soft points. My one/two shots are lightning fast. Finally, it only cost me $0.75 per shot.
Bonanza
It is still a high pressure, belted rimless cartridge.
(Thanks Mac)
| unspellable |
| (.300 member) |
| 20/10/04 02:45 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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Where do you get the 300 grain bullets? I've been beating the bushes for years for a 300 grain bullet.
I have a 400-360 wich calls for a 0.367 diameter bullet but he 9.3 mm at 0.366 is probably as close as I am going to get. (My barrels measure 0.3665 groove to groove.)
| bonanza |
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| 20/10/04 04:32 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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True, it is a high pressure belted case, but in today's gun that is not relevent. Today's guns are much stronger than the old british guns where presure would be a danger. I've had this discussion before, and I think it is borne out of ignorance and just passing on what one has heard before. I have shot over 250 rounds without single stuck case and the action is just at tight as new. I would say to anyone considering a 375H&H in a new double, do it.
| Chasseur |
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| 20/10/04 05:07 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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450no2,
I’ve had several problems with the rifle. They did not regulate the rifle when I ordered it with the load I asked for. I asked for 286gr norma Alaskans, they regulated it with the cartridge that they had specifically made for the French market for their guns in 232gr oryx. Ammo that is practically impossible to get here in the US. It just does not regulate with the 286s, shooting "apart" as Wright would say. I've been able to play a bit with handloads but not what I want. After delivery they refused to take the gun back or give me a new one. They got my measurements all wrong and gave me a rifle with a ridiculously long LOP something in the order of 16.5” (mine is about 14.5” for rifles, and little over 15 for a SxS shotgun).
After a year of using the rifle the interior latch/catch that holds the top lever open when the action is open broke two weeks before a hunt. I gave it to Greg Wolf and he told me that Chapuis had simply not bothered to finish inside of the action! Also the hammers were not properly hardened and had started to mushroom over, and had to be replaced by Greg. I am having the rifle re-regulated by JJ Perodeau. Total cost of having this rifle fixed the way it should have been as not made me very happy. After my experiences and talking to several French hunters, I have heard the same stories over and over again: soft hammers and incomplete finishing on the actions.
Customer service has been awful. Non responses to phone messages and emails. Now before the franco-phobes start explaining that away as anti-Americanism, I speak pretty good French and I’ve had French friends call them and their customer service is just plain rude, and incompetent to all… I’ve met scant few French hunters who think highly of their products, thier quality control, or their customer service (even meet some that quit the company because they were disgusted by their sloppiness), Chapuis seems to know this and is shifting their emphasis on trying to export more guns trying to become “the largest maker of double rifles in the world” and being the leader here in the US for doubles.
Really makes me mad, because when I was looking for a double rifle in 9.3 I had many options. I went with Chapuis over Demas, Rippamonti, Gaucher etc, because of this reputation they have over here. Boy was I wrong...
| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 20/10/04 07:57 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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CHASSEUR I'm sorry to hear of your problems with your Chapuis double rifle, or rather the maker! I'm glad, however, that you posted this here, because I have been thinking about buying a 470NE Chapuis, a thought quickly forgotten today!
I know NE450No2, personally, and can bear witness to, not only his shooting ability, but the accuracy of his Chapuis double rifle chambered for 9.3X74R. I witnessed him shooting a coyote hitting it with two shots, one from each barrel, at a measured distance of 317 yds.
As far as I know, he has not had any trouble with his rifle, and if the factory is as bad as I'm hearing, I hope he doesn't! I have a Merkel 9.3X74R double, and have been very happy with it. As far as useing it on Mbogo, I would have no qualms in doing just that, and in fact intend to, on my next trip to Zambia! This is the third double rifle I have owned, and hunted with, chambered for 9.3X74R, and they have all been top notch, and have made the little doubles my favorite rifles. Though I have owned many doubles, in many chamberings, the little double chambered for 9.3X74R has become my first choice in most cases!
| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 20/10/04 08:02 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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In reply to:
Bonanza
It is still a high pressure, rimmed cartridge.
MICKEY , I think you ment to say "BELTED RIMLESS" .
| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 20/10/04 08:33 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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In reply to:
True, it is a high pressure belted case, but in today's gun that is not relevent. Today's guns are much stronger than the old british guns where presure would be a danger.
BONANZA It is true that modern steel, used in firearms of today, is much better than the, mostly IRON, of the old days! However, the breaktop double rifle is still 18th century technology, and are definently not suited to high pressures. There is a sound reason the 375H&H Flanged was loaded to lower pressures, than the belted rimless round. That reason was, the rimless was made for bolt rifles, and the flanged was made for doubles, and break-top singleshots. Addtionally, the tiny pawls used in double rifles for use with belted rimless rounds, are problematic, when paired with African talcum powder dust, or sticky cases. You may use your Merkel for years without problem, but pray when a problem occures, it is not in the face of a big buff! Things that you see smoking, are usually caused by fire someplace, and this one has been smoking for about 90 years, and the 375 H&H, in doubles, is the cause of the fire, that long ago! However, the chambering of this type cartridge was only started again in the late fifties, when the old NE rounds became hard to find. It wasn't a good idea, but they had no choice, if the wanted a big bore double, the 458 Win Mag, and the 375 H&H, both belted, and high pressure, were the only choice. Most of the 458s have been re-chambered to 450NE, or 450No2NE, and re-regulated, but the 375 H&H has to be re-barreled, so those can still be found, but that doesn't make either of these rounds a very good choice in a double! I wish this were not true, because the 375 H&H is one of my all time favorite rounds, so you can beleive if I thougt it was a prudent idea, I would have one!
| mickey |
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| 20/10/04 09:00 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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Mac
To many people think it is the steel and not the design that precludes the high pressure cartridges. Thanks for pointing it out, again.
Couple that with the itsy bitsy, teeney weenie springs that act with the pawls and failure, at some point, is inevitable.
| Chasseur |
| (.375 member) |
| 20/10/04 10:50 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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Duggaboy thanks for your kind words.
I am glad that NE450no2 has posted about his Chapuis, its gives me faith in my rifle for the future. I do like the rifle. The way it handles, the nice triggers, how fast I can dump out the empties and load two more carts. I love the cartrige too.
I hope that when JJ gets done with it that will put it right. I really would like to use it on game but in the three-four years I've had it its spent more time in the shop than with me...
Thanks guys!
| NE450No2 |
| (.375 member) |
| 20/10/04 10:53 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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I have between 1000 and 1200 rounds fired through my Chapuis. Two hundred or so factory rounds, the rest handloads.
My Chapuis was factory regulated with RWS 293 gr.TUG. It shoots good with 232 Norma, 286gr. Sellier and Belliot [sp] 286gr Norma Alaska, 286gr.RWS Soft Point, Superior Ammo loads with 286 Woodleigh Softs and Solids, 286gr. Nosler Partitions, 300 Swift A Frames,320 Woodleigh Softs and Solids, and my reloads with 270 Speer, 285 gr. Hawks, 286 Nosler Partitions, and 286gr. Woodleigh Softs and Solids.
With many of these loads I can use the same zero to 200 yards. While some loads shoot better than others all shoot good enough to hunt big game with.
The www.superiorammo.com loads with 286gr Nosler Partitions, and the Woodleigh Softs and Solids shoot the best. Their 300gr Swift A Frames shot good too.
I have not had any problems with my Chapuis.
A friend of mine just bought a Chapuis in 470, I will keep us updated on its performance.
| seroadglide |
| (.275 member) |
| 20/10/04 12:17 PM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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I own a Chapuis in 9.3x74R; I've only had it about six months. The inside of the carrying case indicates a manufacture date of 1978. I have put something over 300 rounds through it with no problems noted. I purchased it used and have no record of the number of rounds fired by the previous owner. As best I can tell it would be classed as a REX but does not have all the features listed on the Chapuis webpage for that model. It has engraved plates but the grip cap is not engraved; it does not have a cheek piece. The wood is nice. I tried several different powder and bullet combinations to find one that worked substantially better than the rest. I am impressed with the accuracy of this rifle/ammo combination.
I had considered purchasing a double for a while and examined various options. I had considered a Merkel; I own a Merkel sxs 20 ga. and am happy with the feel and performance. The wood is very nice. I am not overly impressed with the general fit of the metal pieces to the wood. Checkering overruns are obvious. This was also the case with the Merkel double rifle I looked at. The one I looked at was also in 416 Rigby; I did not want a rimless cartridge. Some may consider this scrutiny of cosmetics as nit picking, but I feel that a $6,500+ rifle should offer more than the Merkel did. I also looked at a Heym. I liked it a lot but could not get past the chambering; it was in 458 Win. Fit and finish were excellent. Had the Heym been in a different caliber, I would probably own it now.
I personally do not know nor have I dealt with the folks at Champlin's. I know people that have, and I have only heard positive comments and recommendations. I do know that their webpage has complimentary words to say about Chapuis doubles. The overall wood to metal fit, checkering, etc. are head and shoulders above the Merkel products I have seen (and the one I own). I do not say this to offend; this has simply been my observation. I may someday own a Merkel double rifle. I have thought about getting one in a smaller caliber like say 7x65r, 30R Blaser(though I know little about this chambering), 8x57IRS, or even the 6.5x57r.
I do wish my Chapuis had provisions for mounting a scope. It does not have the removable blocks. While I might never mount a scope, I would like the option. I do like the feel without a scope, but I also like the light gathering ability of good scopes both early and late in the day.
My best load so far accuracy wise has been with the Speer 270gr using VV N135. I tried the Speer with several other powders; the next best load used IMR4064. I briefly tried Nosler 250gr ballistic tips but did not really pursue a good loading for them. I now have some Lapua 18.5g Mega bullets to try when personal time is more plentiful.
Douglas Mays
Happy Chapuis 9.3x74R owner and budding double addict.
| NE450No2 |
| (.375 member) |
| 20/10/04 12:44 PM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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Douglas,
JJ Perodeau at Champlins can install claw mounts on your Chapuis. A scope on a 9,3 really enhances its hunting ability.
65 grains of IMR 4831 shoots very good in my Chapuis with 286 Woodleigh Softs, 286 Nosler Partitions, and 285 Hawks with the .035jkt. They all hit in the same group to 200 yards.
With the 270 Speer 59 grains of RL-15 shot good also.
| vigillinus |
| (.300 member) |
| 20/10/04 01:02 PM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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I have a splendid double 9.3 over 20 ga that keeps 8 shots inside 3" at 100 from rest, but I wish to present a heretical thought: for North America the Holy Grail, at less than 1/10 the cost, just might happen to be my Remington 7600 pump rifle in .35 Whelen. Now you guys can howl for my blood !!
| jgttechjunkie |
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| 20/10/04 02:05 PM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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In the US Charles Prince at Euroguns sells Chapuis, Krieghoff and Heym. He might be one source to compare the relative merits of Heym and Chapuis.
| luv2safari |
| (.400 member) |
| 20/10/04 02:14 PM |
Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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Did someone just say "9.3x74R"?
It is no secret that I like the 9.3. It is neither fish, nor fowl, but it does about anything I'll ever need. I liken it to the 16 gauge. Both are classic old rounds, and both are making a come back...for good reason. They both provide adaquate power for almost any type hunting...in a lighter, trimmer package.
My present 9.3x74R DR is an N. Lejot built on a Merkel 203 type sidelock action in 1930. It handles and points like a 20 gauge. It took me a while to figure out the right load...286 Nosler Partitions at 2300 fps... The added bonus is the second set of barrels in 16/8x57jr w/scope in claws.
It is now decision time. I have it for sale, but am not pressed to sell it. I'd like to get back over for one more buffalo hunt, and this would get me much of the way there. The other alternative is to keep it and have it scoped in either a 4x or 6x Hensoldt rail mount w/claws. I have the scopes.
If I keep it I will be looking to have a set of 16 ga barrels made for it. Who does this kind of work at a price an average mortal could afford?
| NE450No2 |
| (.375 member) |
| 20/10/04 02:26 PM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail?
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vigillinus
I stand by my original statement "The 9,3x74R Double Rifle
is The Holy Grail of hunting rifles."
I will now add "The Remington Pump is the Garbage Pail of hunting rifles."
I do not really think that about the Remington Pump or the 35 Whelen, but it was too good a come back.... I could not resist.
| BFaucett |
| (.333 member) |
| 21/10/04 01:38 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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The November 2004 (Vol. 7 No. 10) issue of The Accurate Rifle magazine has a nice little article on the 9.3x74R.
http://www.theaccuraterifle.com/tarmag_2004_11_frame.html
Home page:
http://www.theaccuraterifle.com/
-Bob F.
| unspellable |
| (.300 member) |
| 21/10/04 03:54 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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The pressure issue with double rifles has nothing to do with the strength of the action and never did. A 12 gauge will put as much or more back thrust on the action as most rifle cartridges. I've seen two examples of double rifles blown up. Both went out through the side of the barrel without damage to the action.
The reason pressure was an issue is extraction. The double simply does not have the mechanical advantage a bolt does on extraction. You don't want sticky cases in a sticky situation. The biggest improvement here since the advent of smokeless powder has been in the cases them selves, not the rifles. The original problem was at it's worst with nitro for BP loads in the old thin BP cases and in BP chambers that were a bit pitted.
Modern steel is an improvement on the old, but the old was quite up to the job.
| bonanza |
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| 21/10/04 04:40 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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Unspellable, thank you for shedding some light on a subject with some actual facts. I'll paraphrase some other facts I have heard regarding the double rifle. Back thrust is a function of PxA where P=pressure and A=area of head, therefore the small head of the 375 produces no more thrust than a 470 nitro; the main cause of a breach coming off face is lack of quality grease on the hinge; and polishing your brass will help prevent sticking, With that in mind, I load my 375H&H to the lowest pressure that will regulate the gun, polish my cases and clean and grease the hinge after ever day shooting.
Also, I put a drop of qality oil down those tinny springs to prevent them from rusting and breaking.
Question, my gun has side clips. What are they for?
| DUGABOY1 |
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| 21/10/04 08:07 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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In reply to:
The pressure issue with double rifles has nothing to do with the strength of the action and never did. A 12 gauge will put as much or more back thrust on the action as most rifle cartridges. I've seen two examples of double rifles blown up. Both went out through the side of the barrel without damage to the action.
Unspellable,you are absolutely correct that most complete blow-ups occure in the walls of the barrel, usually just ahead of the chamber area, where the barrels get thinner! However, an action can be damaged severly, long before a barrel lets go.
In reply to:
The reason pressure was an issue is extraction. The double simply does not have the mechanical advantage a bolt does on extraction
The above quote is also correct, and is just as sereous when faced with a locked tight double, whne one needs to re-load fast!
The high pressures are simply hard on the actions of double rifles, and their longivity is shortened by it to a great degree! My question is, if you are going to spend the price of a new car for a rifle, why not get the best value for money, and avoid the potentual problems? By not haveing it chambered for a cartridge that is not well suited to the type rifle your buying? I will say a lot of the loose actioned doubles was not caused by the wrong cartridge, but haveing the wrong owner, who doesn't know how to care for it!
I think one of the reasons you see so many damaged doubles that are chambered for rounds like the 458 Win Mag, and 375H&H, is the mind-set of the guys who buy them. Most folks who buy a rifle chambered for either of these two rounds, tend to be people who look to get as much velocity as they can from a cartridge. That is a mind-set that is dangerous where double rifles are concerned, new, or old!
| unspellable |
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| 21/10/04 08:34 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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Simplest answers first. Side clips supposedly help to prevent side to side movement of the barrels relative to the standing breech face. They may accomplish something in the absence of a third bite, but if you have a third bite in the form of a doll's head or cross bolt that are properly fitted, there's not much left for the side clips to do except look pretty.
Proper lubrication is essential to prevent wear, especially at the hinge pin and cross bolt or doll's head if there is one. The rifle (or gun) will eventually shoot loose due to the pounding on the surfaces in these areas. A proper lubricant acts as a cushion, it can't get out of the way as fast as the firing impulse hits. This greatly reduces the battering these areas must suffer.
As a first approximation, back thrust is equal to pressure times the inside base area of the cartridge. There are a few complications. The case will take a grip on the chamber walls and reduce the back thrust, the inertia of the parts reduces back thrust, etc. That's why the British method of determining pressure by measuring back thrust always yields lower numbers than the American method of measuring through a hole in the side of the chamber. There are advantages to both. the American method is probably better for determining what will blow up the gun but the British method will correlate better to how fast the action will wear.
I'm not sure how the 375 would compare to the 470 but you have the right idea in that it's pressure times area, not simply pressure alone.
Two points for oiling. Oil is bad, bad, on wood. Don't over oil and it's better to store the piece horizontally or muzzle down than butt down like most gun cabinmets seem to do. Most of the lock parts will want oil but grease is called for on the hinge pin and bites.
Here's the question I have yet to figure out. What do you do for cleaning and oiling on a box lock? What evil lurks in there? They're not easy to take apart. The local "gunsmiths" are NOT going to touch my double! Shipping it off to a qualified smith would run to money.
| unspellable |
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| 21/10/04 08:41 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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An advantage to the double is that it's not fussy about cartridge length or size so in designing a cartridge for it you can use a big case and there's simply no need for high pressures.
The bolt rifle has constraints on the case size and requires high pressures to get the job done.
As for blow ups, it's a case of when they go, they do as they damn well please. More seriously, when they blow out through the action it's usually the case or primer that fails first. In other words too much pressure for the case. If they go out through the side, its too much pressure for the barrel. Of course the action may be poorly desigend or have a flaw. But a double action is not inherently weak. With a primer or case failure a modern bolt rifle may handle the escaping gas better.
Bottom line is save the over pressure experiments for your Ruger blackhawk, get an old tire, a long string, a big tree and ear muffs.
| bonanza |
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| 21/10/04 11:19 PM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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According to Graeme Wright the 470 nitro produces 16tpsi, the 375F 18tpsa and the 375H&H 20tpsi. Using a reduced pressure powder (H414) and a reduced load 235g@2500fps I reckon my loads are in the 18tpsi range. And giving that the gun is built like a brick shit house, I doubt I have much to worry about.
The action has two engagements(?) under the barrel and the greener cross bolt plus the side clips (I agree they are pretty)
Sorry to say, but I'm not familiar with the terms bite, dolls head.
| DUGABOY1 |
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| 22/10/04 01:52 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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In reply to:
The action has two engagements(?) under the barrel and the greener cross bolt plus the side clips (I agree they are pretty)
Sorry to say, but I'm not familiar with the terms bite, dolls head.
Bonanza , those engagements under the barrels are refered to as BITES! A "DOLL'S HEAD" is the same as your Greener extention (Cross Bolt) but has no cross bolt, and is rounded on the end so it fits into a mateing rounded recess in the top of the action exactly where you Greener extention is on your rifle. Most Britt doubles have either a hidden, or a doll's head third fastener, while most Euro doubles have the Greener cross bolt third fastener. The doll's head, or greener are better than the hidden third fastener, IMO! I also like side clips!
By the way congratulations on you win at the Big bore shoot! Good show!
| AussieMike |
| (.300 member) |
| 22/10/04 02:43 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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"Here's the question I have yet to figure out. What do you do for cleaning and oiling on a box lock? What evil lurks in there? They're not easy to take apart. The local "gunsmiths" are NOT going to touch my double! Shipping it off to a qualified smith would run to money. "
I had an emergency with with a Wetley Richards DR that had been submerged for several days in a flood a few months before I got it. Rust started breaking out on the barrels and it became clear that there was still alot of moisture in the wood. I pulled the action down to basic parts in a couple of hours (with two phone calls to a very knowledgeable and helpful 'smith in Darwin. I was just very careful and used a drill press for any screw that even looked like being difficult. What's more, two months later I got it back together again without dramas.
In the olden days blokes went on safari for months on end and carried spare firing pins, springs etc and replaced them as necessary. The famed Westley Richards "drop lock" just made this easier.
I'd not hesitate to pull anything apart. Mind you I've got a lot of boxes with bits of chainsaws, motorbikes and cars that I decided to pull apart and one day plan to put back together.
mike
| 470Rigby |
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| 22/10/04 09:10 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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In reply to:
The high pressures are simply hard on the actions of double rifles, and their longivity is shortened by it to a great degree!
Totally agree! And as is usual, the British had the answer way back in 1905 for controlling pressures in medium bore doubles, and that was the .360 No.2 Nitro Express.
Pushing a 320 grain bullet at 2,200 fps for a pressure generated with 55 gr Cordite of a mere 14.5 tpsi!
Modern powders would facilitate even lower pressures and/or higher MV's.
Sure, it's a reloading proposition today, but for all practical purposes, so is the .375 Flanged Magnum. Having owned a Royal Grade Holland that shot off the face in that chambering (and I've yet to see one that hadn't!), once bitten, twice shy!
So - my vote goes to the .360 No.2 NE as the ideal all-round double rifle calibre!
| mickey |
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| 22/10/04 10:27 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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In reply to:
Poster: bonanza
Subject: Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
Sorry to say, but I'm not familiar with the terms bite, dolls head.
Bonanza
Here is a picture of a Dolls Head (sort of), a hidden third bite and the hinge pin. Note that the hidden bite is notched to the rear for a sliding bar to engage as is the front lug.
| bonanza |
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| 23/10/04 12:16 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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" Royal Grade Holland that shot off the face in that chambering (and I've yet to see one that hadn't!), "
Mine hasn't. Probably will when I get to 2000+ rounds. I'll just have it fixed. The real issue here is, The only low pressure cartridge in new guns is the 470. Now, I must admint that new 500/416 looks very interesting. I like the idea of a 400 grain bullet moving out about 2200-2300 fps, good killing power plus moderate recoil in a DR.
| DUGABOY1 |
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| 23/10/04 12:33 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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In reply to:
Note that the hidden bite is notched to the rear for a sliding bar to engage as is the front lug.
The third bite in your picture is not easy to see, but is there! the top lever actually slides over the small notch in the rib extension. A true "HIDDEN THIRD FASTENER" is a rib extension, AH LA H&H, where the rib extends through the extractor into a hidden recess in the breach face! I find the doll's head to be the better of the two types. The best being the dolls head with a bite in it's back side AH LA WESTLEY RICHARDS. This type really has four fasteners! The one shown in you pictures has four as well!
| unspellable |
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| 26/10/04 01:54 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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I do not consider a third bite in a doll's head to be a hidden bite. It's an small extension between the extractors and not very prominent, hence the term hidden.
A doll's head may or may not have a bite, but I do not count the doll's head itself as a bite. A bite (when engaged) tends to prevent the action from being manually opened. A doll's head without a bite does not do this. Note that I said "manually". Not quite the same thing as the opening forces applied during firing where the doll's head with out bite does tend to prevent opening.
A doll's head with a bite is probably better than one without, but one without will do as intended if properly designed and fitted. Greener used to brag up his cross bolt at the expense of the doll's head without a bite. The key to either is proper fitting. A Greener cross bolt accomplishes nothing if it is not properly fitted.
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 26/10/04 02:51 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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I am a fan of the 9.3x62 which can be loaded up to a good deal better than a 9.3x74, and I consider it a doable Buffalo rifle if all goes well, but certainly at the bottom of the Buff calibers...
I know the 9.3x74 will kill a Buffalo, but it takes awhile for them to die and they make a lot of steps before they expire unless spine or brain is hit...I know that Lions can be very agressive also, and wouldn't even consider a 9.3x74 on Lion...
I wouldn't recommend a 9.3x74 for dangerous game, unless your content with letting your PH clean up your mess....
I would recommend a 450-400 as the minimum buffalo double rifle and the warm loaded 9.3x62 as minimum in a bolt gun.......
My 9.3x62 with a 26 inch barrel will toss a 300 gr. Swift bullet at 2450 FPS, a 286 gr. at 2520 FPS, and a 320 gr. Woodleigh at 2400, that is a good deal beyond factory ammo and way beyond a 9.3x74 capability....
I have seen the 9.3x74 used on a number of Buffalo by clients, mostly ladies, and I have never been impressed, its just a bit shy IMO...
| bonanza |
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| 26/10/04 04:50 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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How about the .375 flanged in DR? Too much recoil?
| AussieMike |
| (.300 member) |
| 26/10/04 10:44 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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I've got doubles in 375 H&H belted magnum and a 375 H&H flanged magnum. Both are pussycats with the flanged being milder due to its lower pressure loading (and well designed British stock - the belted mag is a continental U/O).
mike
| bonanza |
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| 27/10/04 01:10 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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I've got a 375H&H in a side by side, what kind of gun is you O/U, how well does it shoot?
| AussieMike |
| (.300 member) |
| 27/10/04 09:12 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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G'day Bonanza,
It's a Brno (the factory now produces CZ firearms). I got it 17 years ago for about $US1,500 inc Zeiss Jena 4x scope with rail mounts. It was new at the time.
For the money, it's fine - regulates ok (4"@50yds) even though we can't get the RWS 305g cartidges it was regulated for here. About 5" separation with the scope in place.
It was my first double and first big bore and I've had a lot of fun shooting pigs, goats and rabbits. Always planned to use hunting sambar deer in the forest but haven't got around to it yet.
mike
| vigillinus |
| (.300 member) |
| 27/10/04 12:39 PM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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I have related this experience before, decades back I had a Westley droplock .375 H&H belted mag, peepsight in the rib, super rifle, cased, mint, extra locks, the works. One of the finest rifles I have ever owned. I and Dick Vogt, who long ago wrote an article for Gun Digest on loading for doubles, tried to get it to shoot. We tried about everything - it did well with Kynoch factory loads, you could still get some, but no luck with American brass, powder, or bullets. Finally halfway decent groups were obtained but with such heavy loads of 4350 that there were severe extraction and ejection problems. I sold it for about $3000 - you can estimate from that how long ago this was. Then to our absolute dumbfounded fury the buyer wrote us some weeks later that he had had no trouble getting it to stay in 3" with handloads !! And perfect ejection. We were so mad we never quizzed him about the load. Turned me off rimless cases for doubles forever.
| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/10/04 12:22 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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The main (99%) reason I got the 375H&H mag in my double was, I simply can't take the recoil of a 470. I've shot them, and my flinch is atrocious. My 375 DR will shoot sub 3" 6 shot groups at 50Y and off the bench I can latterly shoot the 10 ring out. The recoil is so mild with the 235g sierras I can practice all day. I'm now a better shot with my DR than I ever was with my bolt gun.
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 29/10/04 08:02 AM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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Good move Bonanza, if everyone knew their recoil limitations, a lot less incidents would take place, a 375 in the ticker beats the hell out of a gut shot with a 470....
| NE450No2 |
| (.375 member) |
| 31/12/04 03:57 PM |
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Re: The 9,3x74R Double Rifle, is it the Holy Grail
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Since there has been some questions about the 375 vs. the 9,3x74R, which calibre for a double etc so I thought I would send this "back to the top".
I would like to add that a 9,3x74R double rifle [scoped] and a 450/400 double rifle [or a 500/416 in a new made double] would be just about a perfect pair of doubles for World wide use for the modern sport hunter.