| FATBOY404 |
| (.400 member) |
| 22/11/11 08:01 AM |
Ejector or extractor
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What is the prefered on a DR.?.
Merkel in question.
| Tatume |
| (.400 member) |
| 22/11/11 08:05 AM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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I'm a single shot shooter, but I like extractors. I don't like to chase brass, I don't like the sound it makes, and I don't like things that are more likely to break at an inopportune time.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 22/11/11 08:12 AM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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Have used both in the field and as long as you practice "pumping and dumping" with an extractor, the time difference is not that great. It's not like we are hunting in a herd of Elephants anymore !!!
It all comes down to having a technique on extractor models that works for you and practising it so you can do most of it without looking.
Re brass and worry about losing it.
When "hunting", the brass is the last thing I worry about,
however if possible I do tend to either make a big scrape in the ground with my foot or throw my hat down where I start so I can go back there, either to start the track if needed or to pick up the brass later.
I have a Merkel extractor.
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| Tatume |
| (.400 member) |
| 22/11/11 08:42 AM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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I shoot hundreds of shots in practice for every shot on game. Some of the cartridges I reload are very expensive. Also, I like to keep a lot of brass together. When I go to the range I like to have 50, not 49. But more importantly, I don't like chasing brass. I don't like looking for cases in the grass or on the floor of the range. I don't like having my cases on the ground where someone may step on them before I pick them up. And, I don't see any advantage to an ejector whatsoever. To quote Edwin Starr (but first recorded by the Temptations), "what is it good for?"
When I hunt I don't worry about a cartridge case, although I pick it up if possible.
| tophet1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 22/11/11 09:36 AM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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I don't own a double and probably will never be able to afford one either. So as far as doubles go I am ignorant.
I think chasing brass in the hunting field is an easy (and bad) habit to get into. This was demonstrated on our recent trip where our guest (who has only ever been spotlighting for pest control) would have his head down after the first shot looking for the empty when he should have still been shooting his target or the next cull animal. We told him not to look for it (it was my brass anyway) but he was in the habit of doing so and couldn't stop himself. Most of my brass is still out there but I will admit with some rare calibres I go back looking for it and do get a percentage back.
As I live Africa vicariously through DVD's these days you see a lot of clients do the same thing. Compared to the animal, the cost saving or importance of finding brass in the field is negligable. I don't have any problem recovering brass at a range.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 22/11/11 09:46 AM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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tophet
A mate of mine, who effectively taught me most about shooting big game gets really annoyed at people re brass. Luckily it was not a habit I had.
Like you, his view is the animal is the most important and its not dead until it is down and dead - and as you say, if it is dead, look for the next one to shoot.
In a herd / cull situation, you only really have about 4 - 5 seconds before they are out of range IMHO.
I have always found going back to find the scrape I have made on the ground is far easier than picking foot prints !!!
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| Matt_Graham |
| (Sponsor) |
| 22/11/11 11:02 AM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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IMO - assuming you are talking about a heavy rifle - it really comes down to personal choice and what you will be using the gun for. As a professional back-up gun for dangerous game, ejectors would be optimal for most, so long as you are used to ejectors and practice with it a lot. But that is the only situation where I think you would NEED ejectors in any way (for speed on reload), aside from that it is really just preference and getting experience with that gun (whatever it be). for an extractor-only gun there are different methods for shooting it and reloading fast.
Picking up brass, yeah for sure ... but with an extractor gun if you pull the brass out by hand you still have the problem of having two empty shells in your hand OR you rolled the gun over and the shells fell on the ground anyway!! Double rifles are great in that you can shoot 4 - 6 - 8 shots very fast - so it is all about the reloading function to me.... otherwise extractor/ejector, wouldnt make a difference.
Pretty soon I will have both a heavy extractor DR AND a heavy ejector DR - and that will present a new set of issues for me... getting used to shooting both types!!! A lot of that would come down to setting in place processes where you (or me) mentally check and recheck when you go to shoot the gun - and that is a good way to practice with any firearm in the field or at the range.... if you know what I mean?
Work out how YOU are going to operate the firearm and drill that operation, often, with mental checks...
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 22/11/11 11:16 AM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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Quote:
Work out how YOU are going to operate the firearm and drill that operation, often, with mental checks...
Very true. I swap guns quite often (bolt guns especially)
and more often than not do this in the morning with my eyes closed to make sure the memory system comes back.
.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 22/11/11 02:29 PM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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I think the Merkels in the Dangerous Game calibres/cartridges only come with ejectors. Makes sense, I guess, as it would save time and eliminate 1 other point for human error (ie manual removal of extracted cases).
Having said that, my Merkel 500Nitro started to fail ejecting from the LH barrel. When I removed the fore-end, the left hand ejector striker (is this what it is called?) would be uncocked. I thought something must've broken but tried dripping some oil into the mechanism. I don't have any fine tipped hollow ground blade screwdrivers so couldn't disassemble anything, but I would hesitate to do so anyway without instructions or diagrams of what's inside (there's probably small expensive parts that are keen to fly around the room if given the chance
). Anyway the oil worked - maybe a catch wasn't able to move all the way it was supposed to.
| Matt_Graham |
| (Sponsor) |
| 22/11/11 03:00 PM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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Quote:It is a given that I will loose a small part!!!
(there's probably small expensive parts that are keen to fly around the room if given the chance
| HogPilot |
| (.300 member) |
| 22/11/11 04:58 PM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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Quote:
I think the Merkels in the Dangerous Game calibres/cartridges only come with ejectors.
Not an accurate statement. I have a Merkel in 500NE with extractors. Purchased it in 07 and have taken 3 elephants with it, among other game.
I also have a Chapuis in 9.3X74R with ejectors. I like the ejectors on that gun because I have a scope on it. But I greatly prefer the extractors on the 500. I learned the technique from Boddington in his Safari Rifles on how to reload. I open the action and roll the gun with a flick of the wrist resulting in the barrels pointing straight up. Practice will have you doing this in one quick motion. The shells fall out right at your feet, together. With practice, this technique is very fast.
Owning and shooting both types, the only draw back to extractors is that you must pull the spent case when firing only one barrel. By the same token, reloading that one barrel can be done silently with extractors but not ejectors. This was the reason the old Ivory Hunters preferred extractors but of course, we don't shoot multiple bulls out of a herd anymore. Still, there are situations where a quick and silent reload are beneficial.
| CHAPUISARMES |
| (.416 member) |
| 22/11/11 05:32 PM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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Hi Matt,
Quote.:
Pretty soon I will have both a heavy extractor DR AND a heavy ejector DR - and that will present a new set of issues for me... getting used to shooting both types!!! A lot of that would come down to setting in place processes where you (or me) mentally check and recheck when you go to shoot the gun - and that is a good way to practice with any firearm in the field or at the range.... if you know what I mean? End Quote.
I was told to always buy an ejector model as it can always be made into an extractor model, so if you do have a 'Conflict' you can make both Extractor.
Cheers,
Jeff Gray
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| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 22/11/11 05:46 PM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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I have 2 Merkel's with extractors.
I have only had a couple of instances where the animals have heard me re load - heard and reacted to the "ping" of the ejectors but not a major issue, it's just the 500NE has lound ejectors.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 22/11/11 06:19 PM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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I'm not sure that the game can hear the ejectors because that would mean that you've just fired the rifle and want to do so again - the "booms" would've already deafened them or at least alerted them, I feel.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 22/11/11 06:32 PM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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Quote:
I'm not sure that the game can hear the ejectors because that would mean that you've just fired the rifle and want to do so again - the "booms" would've already deafened them or at least alerted them, I feel.
That was my view as well until it happened to me.
They (herds) sometimes can't tell where a shot came from
and so "mill around" trying to work out what to do - especially if you have taken out one of the head bulls or cows.
This exact thing happened this year - heading along, spotted a herd of Buff in some scrub / trees next to the flood plain. We crossed the fence, crept up to within 100 yards, I couldn't pick what my mate was saying about which one to shoot so he let rip with a 450 BP.
He dropped the main cow with one shot, the others just stood there not knowing what to do.
IF his gun had pinged, they would have been off in a flash.
This was exactly the same as one of the scenarios when it happened to me - except we were letting rip with a lot more shots after it happened.
| ozhunter |
| (.400 member) |
| 22/11/11 07:07 PM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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I've had both and now have Ejectors but I would not be overly concerned if the rifle had Extractors instead.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 22/11/11 09:53 PM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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Quote:
That was my view as well until it happened to me.
They (herds) sometimes can't tell where a shot came from
and so "mill around" trying to work out what to do - especially if you have taken out one of the head bulls or cows.....
Good point. The boom is difficult to work out where it comes from. I short cycled the bolt on my 375H&H once and failed to pickup a round (I'd just gotten out of the car and was trying to be real quiet) - the dry fire click sent the pig into high gear.
Another time I was driving along a bore drain when I spotted a pig on the other side and up a ways a bit. I killed the engine and left the key in the ignition, with the intention of closing ground on foot (and in stealth mode). I'd only recently bought this car (Jeep) and didn't realise all the "features" it had. As soon as I opened the door, a chime started going off (to remind me of the key in the ignition). Piggy took off quickly.
NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 22/11/11 10:35 PM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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Quote:
I'm not sure that the game can hear the ejectors because that would mean that you've just fired the rifle and want to do so again - the "booms" would've already deafened them or at least alerted them, I feel.
I've had a scrub bull look for me after being shot twice with the .450. The impact of the bullets would disorientate most animals pretty much. I wasn't standing in the open so he didn't know where I was.
Quote:
I don't own a double and probably will never be able to afford one either. So as far as doubles go I am ignorant.
I think chasing brass in the hunting field is an easy (and bad) habit to get into. This was demonstrated on our recent trip where our guest (who has only ever been spotlighting for pest control) would have his head down after the first shot looking for the empty when he should have still been shooting his target or the next cull animal. We told him not to look for it (it was my brass anyway) but he was in the habit of doing so and couldn't stop himself. Most of my brass is still out there but I will admit with some rare calibres I go back looking for it and do get a percentage back.
As I live Africa vicariously through DVD's these days you see a lot of clients do the same thing. Compared to the animal, the cost saving or importance of finding brass in the field is negligable. I don't have any problem recovering brass at a range.
If hunting big game, I don't worry about brass until later. With a bolt action and reload and work the bolt at the shoulder. At a BGRC shoot I won the rapid fire shoot with a .375 where everyone else was shooting medium bores such as .270's, .30's, .243's etc, except one other guy who was shooting a real rifle (considering it IS BGRC!).
A lot of guys automatically drop the rifle from the shoulder to work the bolt at their waists ... WHY?
Usually because they want to find or catch the brass.
I have found it is good practice to use a simple .22 rimfire. Shoot off 5 10 round clips off the shoulder. Seems to work and stick.
As for extractors and ejectors, I have both. Actually prefer extractors, but ejectors are cool when the brass goes shooting with a smoke trail over your shoulder.
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 22/11/11 11:15 PM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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I think it's a matter of preference and also a matter of practice. I agree that in a hunting situation the hunter shouldn't think about gathering his brass. Admittedly, that's a hard habit to break.
I have only limited experience in wingshooting. My wingshooting opportunities have been limited to doves and ducks. I can confidently say I prefer ejectors with a shotty. For me it speeds up reloading the gun. I don't care about shotshell hulls, so don't pay attention to where they fly behind me. So I prefer ejectors with a shotgun.
My rifle shooting hasn't been as hurried as wingshooting. I have no experience in herds of large animals or in culling hunts. On my deer hunts with DR's I've never even needed the left barrel.
So I think there are advantages either way, but the most important thing is to practice with what you have and know what is in your hand. Operating a firearm becomes somewhat automatic. "Muscle memory" sets in. Just a few weeks ago I was at the range shooting with a friend. I had three DR's, all with Jones levers. Opening a Jones action is just as automatic as opening a toplever action. My friend offered for me to shoot his toplever double. After firing I was amused at myself trying to find the Jones lever under the trigger guard. It reminded me of how automatic these motions become.
Curl
| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 22/11/11 11:47 PM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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I just recently returned from a plains game hunt with my double rifle. Except for the warthog both animals (Impala & Wildebeest) required a chase. I read that unless you need to immediately fire the second bbl, reload the right side. I must say I like having the case sitting right there when the rifle opens. I just lifted it out and dropped in a new round.
In fact, when I did reach the Wildebeest, my first follow-up shot missed and I took him with the left bbl. If I have not reloaded after the first shot and took the follow up with the left bbl after the chase - I'd have lost him.
Shoot, reload then you have a one/two follow up.
Regarding brass. I have an ammo pouch with loaded cartridges, but drop the empty into my pocket. My PH picked up the brass from my bolt rifle.
The authorities like you to have all you empties when you leave. Mine were inspected. 80 cases in, 80 cases out.
| Tatume |
| (.400 member) |
| 23/11/11 01:21 AM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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One thing to keep in mind is that you can have it both ways, with some designs. In my Ruger No. 1 rifles I simply remove the spring from the ejector, converting it to an extractor. Further, with only slightly vigorous operation, the mechanism ejects smartly anyway.
| xausa |
| (.400 member) |
| 23/11/11 02:18 AM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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This is equally as true with my Krieghoff O/U double rifles. I can convert them from ejector to extractor and back using only a small screwdriver in about two minutes time. As with the Ruger, it is merely a question of removing/replacing the ejector spring, and only requires the removal and replacement of two small screws situated in the Kersten lock projections on the barrels.
All my double shotguns are fitted with selective ejectors, with the exception of a pre-War Sauer & Sohn. However, I automatically hold my right hand over the breech when I break the action to keep the empties from ejecting. Many skeet fields have the rule that any empty case which hits the ground belongs to the club. In the game field, especially in a duck blind or at a dove shoot station, I am careful to police up all my empties before departing.
Keeping track of rifle brass in the hunting field is another matter. In Africa, there is usually a sharp eyed gun bearer or tracker to find the brass for you, and if one or two go astray, it's no great tragedy in the greater scheme of things. I don't believe I ever lost a round of brass for my .505. I was far less careful with the .458, .375 and .300 H&H and 7X57 brass.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 23/11/11 04:09 AM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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Quote:
I think it's a matter of preference and also a matter of practice. I agree that in a hunting situation the hunter shouldn't think about gathering his brass. Admittedly, that's a hard habit to break.
Curl
We were taught to open the action and dump the empties onto the ground,not even looking at them. Studies showed that too many policemen were shot with a hand in their pocket while pocketing brass. Yes, it's a difficult habit to break and when under stress, we revert to habit.
Nowadays, I pocket every one as it comes out of the action, except for the shotgun - they fly and if three are flying at the same time, all the time, I'd working that riot gun's trombone properly.
| zimhunter |
| (.333 member) |
| 25/11/11 04:12 AM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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I had a Heym in 375 H&H that had a switch on the bottom of the forearm that activated or disabled the ejectors. This was the perfect answer to the question. Have no idea why they discontinued it. Mine was an older 88B.
| TomN |
| (.300 member) |
| 25/11/11 04:56 AM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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Daryl S
like you I learnd to open and dump my brass without looking and for the same resaon. It was the same when we went to auto's just let it go and keep going.
Tomn
| ccmdoc |
| (.224 member) |
| 04/12/11 01:24 PM |
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Re: Ejector or extractor
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Well,
My recent experience with an elephant convinced me that ejectors are the only way for me.
When I doubled, I had absolutely no idea that I had done so. If I had extractors, I would have plucked the right empty out as I approached my tusker and replaced only it. In my mind I would have two barrels ready for action. In reality I would have had but one.
That both empties flew over my right shoulder allowed me to have two fresh solids at the ready.
That might not be reason enough for others but it is enough for me.