| jaz |
| (.300 member) |
| 04/10/10 11:02 PM |
Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Gents,
Cabela's will soon be importing the Sabatti double rifle in 375 H&H belted, not flanged. I think this would be a most useful all around caliber for N America as well as Africa, but breaches (pun intended) the long standing rule of only rimmed cartridges in a double rifle. The availability of ammo offsets some of this concern, but how do you feel?
JZ
CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 05/10/10 02:10 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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John,
I have two DR's in .375 H&H belted. I load using data for the lower pressure flanged version.
I have had absolutely no problems with anything having to do with these rifles. It's only foolishness to shun a DR because it's chambered in .375 H&H belted.
This statement comes from somebody who considers himself somewhat of a purist as to DR's.
I would think any DR with rimless extraction should be carefully cleaned after the day's hunt with particular attention to the extraction pawl. Anybody can do this. But the admonition to clean daily applies to every firearm, and not just a DR with rimless extraction!
Curl
| jaz |
| (.300 member) |
| 06/10/10 10:06 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Thanks Captain,
I find these rifles to be a very good value, but questioned the extraction system.
Thx
JZ
| ozhunter |
| (.400 member) |
| 06/10/10 04:46 PM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Quote:
I have had absolutely no problems with anything having to do with these rifles. It's only foolishness to shun a DR because it's chambered in .375 H&H belted.
Curl
For Dangerous game hunting, It may be foolish to buy a belted version when the Flanged is available.
I have one friend who had a double in the belted version. He had problems. Maybe only one instance, but that's all it might take...
I also understand you might not use it on DG, but would you still be happy with this problem?
My mate wasn't.
| CHAPUISARMES |
| (.416 member) |
| 06/10/10 05:00 PM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Quote:Quote:
I have had absolutely no problems with anything having to do with these rifles. It's only foolishness to shun a DR because it's chambered in .375 H&H belted.
Curl
For Dangerous game hunting, It may be foolish to buy a belted version when the Flanged is available.
I have one friend who had a double in the belted version. He had problems. Maybe only one instance, but that's all it might take...
I also understand you might not use it on DG, but would you still be happy with this problem?
My mate wasn't.
I have to agree with Ozhunter, I had a Chapuis in .375H&H and did have a problem on the first Buffalo I took, luckily for me the second shot also found it's mark and the animal was down and out and I was at least able to reload one chamber until I could get to use the cleaning rod in camp but would hate it to happen on real dangerous game.
I have since got a Sabatti in .450 N.E. 3.25" which is a rimmed cartridge.
Cheers,
Jeff Gray
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| hunter_angler |
| (.300 member) |
| 09/10/10 12:55 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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I have a Sabatti double in .470NE. Nice rifle for the price.
If you want an all 'rounder and the .375 flanged is unavailable, I would go for a .400 Jeffery (.450/.400 3 inch) which I believe Sabatti does produce. It will do everything the .375 does and more at the ranges for which doubles are useful.
Just my $.02.
| Sikahunter |
| (.224 member) |
| 11/10/10 05:32 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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John
Can't let you do this! It's not British and it MUST be flanged!!
Don
| doubleriflejack |
| (.333 member) |
| 16/10/10 05:39 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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I have a very nice double rifle made in the 1930s, of Austrian make, in its original .270 caliber, the only double rifle I have for non rimmed, flanged, cartridges, and I am fully aware of all the warnings about not having doubles for non rimmed cartridges, due to possible extraction/ejection problems, but, this .270 has been used a lot by me, and by prior owners as well, and it has never, to my knowledge, failed in any way. The Austrians knew how to make these double rifles well, flanged or unflanged.
| Kebco |
| (.300 member) |
| 18/10/10 01:46 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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A couple of things to remember when using a rimless belted case.
You must keep the chambers clean as well as the ejector tab lubricated and clean. If the fired case is sticky in the chamber there is a chance the ejector tab will slip past the case.
With a belted case it will not fall into the chamber, as the ejector tab will hang on the belt, but will require you to push the case in the last little bit.
| Alberta |
| (.275 member) |
| 18/10/10 03:26 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Sabatti makes a 375 flanged if you change your mind. A Canadian importer has one in stock.
FWIW my Sabatti in 7x65R has seen aprox 300 rounds so far and is still hanging in there! A good rife, I just wish the regulation was a tad better (left bbls shoots low)
| jaz |
| (.300 member) |
| 20/10/10 11:52 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Is this a "Cabelas" Sabatti?
JZ
| AkMike |
| (.416 member) |
| 20/10/10 12:51 PM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Quote:
I just wish the regulation was a tad better (left bbls shoots low)
Is it scoped up? Could the scope be canted just a bit causing the left side to print low?
| gallatin |
| (.224 member) |
| 20/10/10 01:57 PM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Can an American go to Vancouver B.C. and buy a Sabatti?
| Paul |
| (.400 member) |
| 20/10/10 06:28 PM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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I had a Winchester db rifle in .30/06 once. The extractors were fine but they'd forgotten to regulate the barrels
| hunter_angler |
| (.300 member) |
| 21/10/10 02:28 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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If the .375 flanged is produced by Sabatti, I would hold out for it. Worth the wait. Then again, I am a bit of a purist...
| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 26/10/10 09:03 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Gentlemen there is nobody on this website that I respect more than CaptCurl, and as he says he is mostly a purist where double rifles are concerned. The one place that is not the case, IMO, is his recommendation of the use of a double rifles chambered for rimless/belted rimless cartridges for use in hunting dangerous game.
It is true that a double rifles so chambered may work fine for years, and it may fail on the first re-loading of the rifle in a very tight situation. Cartridges like the 270 mentioned by someone above and even belted cartridges like the 338 Win Mag used for hunting in North America are not a real problem till you get in the alders with a 1500 pound coastal brown bear that has a hot hole punched in his gut, where you may need to re-load the chambers very quickly or be mauled. Again IMO, here is the place where you will screw up or the rifle will, or both.
There is absolutely no law that says you have to use a double rifle chambered for a flanged cartridge to hunt dangerous game, but I simply don't think the convenience of buying factory ammo may be a case for the 375 H&H in a double rifle, maybe a bolt rifle, but I doubt it is with a double rifle. I find that few double rifles regulate well with factory ammo, at least not well enough to justify it's use on dangerous game where in most cases more than two shots will be needed in very rapid succession especially on things like cape buffalo.
If you will notice every fine double rifle maker has come up with flanged rounds to match all the popular rimless cartridges that were popular at the time. 300H&H flanged for their double rifles, to match the 300H&H magnum for their bolt rifles, the 375H&H flanged magnum to match their 375 H&H magnum for their bolt rifles…….and so on! This is not just a whim, but a well thought out reliability fix for the firearms they make. Until the ammo availability crunch you never saw a double rifle made by any of the top makers chambered for the big bore rimless, or belted rimless cartridges, unless it was custom ordered by a customer. When the ammo was hard to find they had little choice but to make 375H&H and 458 Win Mag double rifles or switch to making only bolt rifles where the competition was fierce.
Quote:
by KEBCO
A couple of things to remember when using a rimless belted case.
You must keep the chambers clean as well as the ejector tab lubricated and clean. If the fired case is sticky in the chamber there is a chance the ejector tab will slip past the case.
With a belted case it will not fall into the chamber, as the ejector tab will hang on the belt, but will require you to push the case in the last little bit.
The above quote is by a man who sells these double rifles for a living, and the verbiage indicates potential problems, unless every little thing is perfect! That is rarely the case in the bush.
Still as I said there is no law that requires a hunter to buy his dangerous game double rifle chambered for a flanged cartridge, and so if that is what you want then buy it, by all means! It is just my hope that when you get away from the target range, and in the bush you don’t come to regret the decision with about one second left to do the regretting!
If this post makes sense to you fine! If it doesn’t ………………..well it may later!
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 26/10/10 11:10 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Mac,
I feel so puffed up I can hardly type. Thank you very much for your kind comment. The repect is returned in full.
I agree that a flanged round is the appropriate round for a double rifle. And all things being equal, I'll choose the double chambered in a flanged round.
However, you and I both know that the '70's and '80's were pretty hard on double rifle shooters. The flanged rounds died off and were thought to be gone forever. The spark lived on, largely in the hands of the Continental makers. They continued chambering the 7x57R, 7x65R, 8x57JR, 8x57JRS, and 9.3x74R. But I distinctly remember what a daunting task it was in the early '80's to find brass for even these common calibers. For larger critters the Continental makers chambered the .375 H&H Mag. (belted) and the .458 Win. Mag. The few English large bore double rifles produced during this period were in the same chambers.
The fact is, rimless extraction was pretty well perfected by the Germans, and it included such unlikely rounds as the .250/3000 Savage, which became a favorite in their single shot stalking rifles and in double rifles too.
I have several double rifles chambered in rimless and belted cartridges. They work perfectly. Now I know if I neglect these precise treasures and let them get gummed up with dried oil, old fouling, rust, dust, etc. they will not extract or eject. But when I was a child I was taught to clean my gun upon returning from the hunt and before retiring for the evening. I'm confident I can make a double .375 H&H belted mag. serve my purposes, even in harsh conditions.
And again, the point is that all things are not equal. A double .375 H&H belted mag. can be had for a fraction of the cost of a .375 flanged mag. So if you are a buyer on a budget there's reason to consider the belted mag.
We are not in disagreement. I think the flanged chamber is superior and less likely to malfunction. But on the other hand, the belted mag chamber can be made to work.
I rejoice in the fact that the old flanged cartridges are seeing a new day in the sun. Bertram is to be thanked. Federal deserves praise. And Hornady is a great addition. There are BELL, Jamison, and others to thank as well. The 1990's saw new light come in the windows. The first decade of the 21st century was a virtual revival of these old cartridges. It's almost as though they were never forgotten. And now we are blessed with a good number of current makers who will build their new double rifles in these wonderful chambers.
I'll part with a question: Why is the .375 Flanged Magnum still neglected?
You know where I'm coming from. This isn't an argument; it's analysis. The belted mag. DR isn't quite as good, but it's cheaper to buy and cheaper to feed. With good care it will run well and rise to the task. That's what the original question was, and that's my answer.
Best,
Curl
| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 27/10/10 02:19 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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An absolutely perfect post, and one that I agree with, as long as the person who buys such a double follows your lead!
The problem is, in most cases, the buyer who buys a double rifle chambered for a rimless or belted rimless cartridge is usually one or both of two things. He is "NEW" to double rifles, and/ Or is buying on the cheap, or both. In my opinion, most of the guys who buy a double chambered for the "BELTED RIMLESS" cartridge are guys who have "MAGNUMITIS", and think that they can hop up the cartridge as they always have in their bolt rifles. In so doing they either get very poor results, or even damage the rifle in the process. Of course this is not always the case as you are an example of the other side of that coin. These are the guys who tend to use bullets like the very hard mono-metal X-bullets in these doubles because that is what they used in their bolt rifles. Then they want to get every FPE of energy they can, and then when they bend something in the rifle with these hot loads the rifle becomes unreliable even when cleaned religiously.
The question you asked about the reason for the ignoring of the 375Flanged is because of the mindset of the average double rifle buyer who tends to go bigger because he only considers the double rifle for an in close defense weapon. There are many who post in all the double rifle forums and have owned, and used double rifles for years who simply can't make themselves understand that a double rifle can be used for longer range shooting as well. Searcy has a raffle going right now for a Classic double rifle to raise funds for his grand daughter’s baseball team! If I happen to win that rifle it will be chambered for the 375 Fl Mag in a nine pound double rifle and fitted with scope rings and mounts. I will simply buy 100 new 375FL cases, and load my own cartridges for it. Because the double rifles chambered for the 375FL mag are so hard to find, I too have been tempted to buy a double chambered for the 375H&H mag, a cartridge that I truly love in a bolt rifle. However I tend to use my rifles for hunting of dangerous game, and so far have resisted buying a double rifle for that purpose in anything but a flanged cartridge.
I think a guy who knows a few things about double rifles can surly get away with using a double rifle chambered for a belted rimless cartridge, but IMO, most who do so are not people who know much about the double rifle, and therefore I will not recommend a double rifle with a rimless cartridge that may be used to face dangerous game to anyone! They are fine for hunting deer elk and moose, or black bear over bait from a tree stand but even in the smaller chamberings there are plenty of flanged cartridges for them as well. If everything is perfect in a double with rimless, and belted rimless cartridges it will work fine in double rifles, but you and I both know that Mr. Murphy rarely lets everything be perfect when it is sorely needed!
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 27/10/10 05:21 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Good points, for sure. Especially your comments against "magnumitis".
I hope you win that Searcy. It's amazing how his product has improved over the past 20 years.
Curl
| Mike_Bailey |
| (.400 member) |
| 27/10/10 06:32 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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off record from a friend at a major london double maker ..."we can chamber it in what you like but if you are going after dangerous game then you are daft it you choose anything other than flanged" best, Mike, p.s. he didn´t say "daft", it was a bit stronger
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 27/10/10 07:07 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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We are forgetting the major premise underlying the original post.
Quote:
Gents,
Cabela's will soon be importing the Sabatti double rifle in 375 H&H belted, not flanged. I think this would be a most useful all around caliber for N America as well as Africa, but breaches (pun intended) the long standing rule of only rimmed cartridges in a double rifle. The availability of ammo offsets some of this concern, but how do you feel?
JZ
I happen to know this gent has a taste for some of the finer doubles made. He has displayed some of them here from time to time, and I have had the pleasure to handle a couple of his personally.
A Cabelas Sabatti isn't the product of a major London double maker. Not a London best, nor even a Birmingham second best. Not a best Italian offering. He knows that.
I take the inquiry to be whether there is some utility value in the Cabelas Sabatti offering, notwithstanding the fact it is chambered for the belted rimless round. In other words, can it somehow be worth the tradeoff of getting a really inexpensive double rifle while having to tolerate rimless extraction.
John can correct me if I am wrong on this assumption. It's weighing price vs. features.
I can't speak for the Sabatti, having never seen one. I merely related my favorable experience with several double rifles featuring rimless extraction.
Obviously, if the original poster were considering a London best he would know which chamber to order. He's wanting to know whether the Sabatti would be a total waste of his money.
Curl
| gatsby |
| (.375 member) |
| 27/10/10 08:12 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Quote:
We are forgetting the major premise underlying the original post.Quote:
Gents,
Cabela's will soon be importing the Sabatti double rifle in 375 H&H belted, not flanged. I think this would be a most useful all around caliber for N America as well as Africa, but breaches (pun intended) the long standing rule of only rimmed cartridges in a double rifle. The availability of ammo offsets some of this concern, but how do you feel?
JZ
A Cabelas Sabatti isn't the product of a major London double maker. Not a London best, nor even a Birmingham second best. Not a best Italian offering. He knows that.
John can correct me if I am wrong on this assumption. It's weighing price vs. features.
Obviously, if the original poster were considering a London best he would know which chamber to order. He's wanting to know whether the Sabatti would be a total waste of his money.
Curl
For John Z; a waste of money.
| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 27/10/10 08:17 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Quote:
We are forgetting the major premise underlying the original post.Quote:
Gents,
Cabela's will soon be importing the Sabatti double rifle in 375 H&H belted, not flanged. I think this would be a most useful all around caliber for N America as well as Africa, but breaches (pun intended) the long standing rule of only rimmed cartridges in a double rifle. The availability of ammo offsets some of this concern, but how do you feel?
JZ
I can't speak for the Sabatti, having never seen one. I merely related my favorable experience with several double rifles featuring rimless extraction.
Obviously, if the original poster were considering a London best he would know which chamber to order. He's wanting to know whether the Sabatti would be a total waste of his money.
Curl
I believe any double rifle is preferable to a bolt rifle, for the shear pleasure of owning it! As far as the Sabatti rifles that were specials for the Cabela's stores I have handled them, and for the price of $5500.oo Us they are a bargain IMO! I don't think the purchase is a total waste of money, and even in the 375H&H chambering is a bargain, especially if he will be useing it in North America for deer elk and Moose, and black bear from a treestand over bait. The rifles are very light for caliber, and the triggers require some attention. I'm not sure I'd recommend a Sabatti for a serious DGR, but for a first double rifle to get ones feet wet is is a bargain. I don't think it is anyway close to offering the reliability I would want for Africa!
The best thing about this thread is that he came here to ask the question, and was given honest answers!
JZ, welcome to the DRSS and enjoy what ever double rifle/cartridge you choose!
| gatsby |
| (.375 member) |
| 27/10/10 08:36 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Dugaboy1,
I know John and my answer was directed to him. the Sabatti would be a 180 degree reversal of his collecting philosophy.
| jaz |
| (.300 member) |
| 27/10/10 10:54 AM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Curl,
You are spot on. My collecting is focused on specific English guns. I love the quality, feel, history and ageless joy that they bring. "Fondling" comes to mind. My question about the "working" Sabatti brought out the type of opinions I was looking for. I wanted to hear about current ejection systems and I did, thanks. If I could buy a flanged version, no brainer, but it is not available. For 5,500 dollars, it is quite a value, in my opinion. For the majority of hunting I do, in the words of Gatsby, it is a great "beater".
Coincidently, I received a much awaited rifle today from Europe, a 470 detachable lock Westley. I may need a kleenex....
JAZ
| Anonymous |
| (Unregistered) |
| 27/10/10 12:38 PM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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I'm very fortunate to own hundreds of double rifles many in rimless, never have I experienced an ejection problem. I agree that a flanged is a no brainer for most if not all double enthusiasts, however, I never shy away from a fine double just because its rimless. I would use any of mine on dangerous game without hesitation.
Jaz: Congrats on your Westley 470 sounds like a very nice addition.
| Buchsemann |
| (.333 member) |
| 27/10/10 01:25 PM |
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Re: Sabatti 375 H&H mag
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Yowsa!!! "I'm very fortunate to own hundreds of double rifles ..."
For the first time in my life I think I just experienced a ej problem of my own.
