(.224 member)

03/12/09 05:22 AM

WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Hello,

Could some one help me understand the merits of the droplock,is it a far better development from the boxlock ,how reliable is it in comparision to the boxlock and sidelock.

Also when its come to british double rifle makers who would you rate as the top 3 (including smaller firms) .

thank you

good day

*I did look for previous posts on thsi subject but was not able to find any .

(.400 member)

03/12/09 05:34 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

Hello,

Could some one help me understand the merits of the droplock,is it a far better development from the boxlock ,how reliable is it in comparision to the boxlock and sidelock.

Also when its come to british double rifle makers who would you rate as the top 3 (including smaller firms) .

thank you

good day

*I did look for previous posts on thsi subject but was not able to find any .

Its sure is a sweet system, but as to improvement its as far as i know, only when it comes to repair in the field.

But it probably makes the action a bit weaker, a blitz system would be a better choice for easy repair.

1. Boss
2. Purdey
3. H%H

But here its the value of the guns not the craftmanship, many will be able to stand up to them.

(.450 member)

03/12/09 05:55 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

"Also when its come to british double rifle makers who would you rate as the top 3 (including smaller firms)"

1. H&H
2. Purdey
3. WR
4. Rigby
5. Webley / Webley & Scott

I am going on who MADE guns and then the craftmanship versus the functionalilty / reliability.

Boss didn't make enough to warrant being up there.

I think the depth and breadth of Holland
is above everyone else.

Rigby - for the Rising third bite action which is a masterpiece but alas, they fell back onto Webley for the rest.

Webley / Webley & Scott or one of the incarnations would have to be up there for the PHV1 Action / Webley Screw grip action.

Jeffrey didn't make any / many.

That's my HO.

(.275 member)

03/12/09 09:21 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Daniel Fraser and Alexander Henry for mechanical and style. Hard to beat.

Dutch

(.450 member)

03/12/09 10:18 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

Daniel Fraser and Alexander Henry for mechanical and style. Hard to beat.
Dutch

Absolutely.

Daniel Fraser for best quality as well.

(.224 member)

04/12/09 11:55 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

I have been reading a lot of british doible rifle makers over the last few weeks,but really do not see much information on Purdey double rifles..Butthen msot ppl seem to rate them right behind H and H though wesltey richards seems to have done a lot mroe when it comes to rifles,wodner why..

Wht abt smaller individual concerns suchs as PV NELSON and J. Roberts & Son (jeffery)..

(.450 member)

04/12/09 12:28 PM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

AJ

Purdey made stuff all (ie Not many) double rifles compared to H&H and WR and others.

They seemed to make more early BP / Hammer type than later one's (ie Sidelock hammerless).

However, all of the one's I have handled and seen have been superb quality - exquisite.

The best I have seen was a Purdey Sidelock Ejector in .369 calibre. All original case colours etc. It oozed quality.

(.400 member)

04/12/09 05:32 PM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Nigel, would this rarity make Purdeys even more collectable than Hollands? Also, do big Purdeys have substantial top fasteners or could they suffer in the same way larger-calibre H&Hs have been said to in another thread?

- Paul

(.375 member)

04/12/09 10:38 PM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

If I could afford one, I would have a double rifle built by Phillip Ollendorff. I could just as easily have one built by Westley Richards and be a very happy man.

(.450 member)

04/12/09 11:57 PM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

Nigel, would this rarity make Purdeys even more collectable than Hollands? Also, do big Purdeys have substantial top fasteners or could they suffer in the same way larger-calibre H&Hs have been said to in another thread?

- Paul

Toplever hammerless Purdey, Yes, IMHO - ffrom a Collectors point of view, a 369 purdey in a Purdey DR is rare - partly because not many were made but partly because a lot of them were bored out.

It's a bit like finding an ORIGINAL Rigby Bissell Rising third bite Sidelock in one of the .350 Calibres. A lot were bored out.

Not sure re the top fastener - I will have to check next time I see the gun. I think you are right though.

Not sure I agree with H&H's suffering in larger calibres ?
R U talking about not having the third bite ?
Which thread ?

Sometimes EARLY, non reinforced Holland's are a problem.

(.224 member)

08/12/09 03:41 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Do Purdey and Boss have their own in house barrel regulators for douible rifles considering the fact that the do not make to many of them?

(.450 member)

08/12/09 04:17 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Good question, not sure.

In reality, you really just need someone to shoot the gun Accurately and someone to do the modifications.

(.224 member)

15/12/09 07:24 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

I ve never seen a boss double rifle,searched on nitroexpress searched the web ,but not to be found ,I am really courious to see one

.

Btw could some one explain about the WR droplock please,as to how it works and why is so significant about it that its their flagship model?

(.300 member)

15/12/09 08:29 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Purdey have their own regulators, or at least they did a few years back when I was able to visit their factory.

H & H's old Dominion range were made by W.C Scott, and I have it on good authority that not too long ago in the last century much of their Royal range was outsourced to trade makers when they took more orders than they could satisfy in house, but have no doubt they will deny that!

As to the merits of the W-R droplock, it is the highest refinement of the boxlock concept, which in the original Anson & Deeley pure form began at W-R in the mid 1870s. Check out their latest website for wonderful pictures to drool over.

For a discussion of many of the action features, which is not too technical, look up Hadoke's "Vintage Guns for the Modern Shot" 2007.

400NitroExpress

(.400 member)

15/12/09 08:47 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

Do Purdey and Boss have their own in house barrel regulators for douible rifles considering the fact that the do not make to many of them?

Don't know about Boss. I can't recall ever seeing a Boss double rifle.

I know for sure that Purdey uses their own in-house regulators.

Don't know how the numbers fall, but Purdey was certainly more prolific as a rifle maker before the nitros. I've wondered if that might have been due to the fact that their proprietary range of nitro DR rounds generally flopped? The quality of the hammerless nitros is almost always fantastic and thus highly desireable, and I agree that the lower numbers help keep the prices up.

Holland always promoted their theoretical edge in strength. Their hammerless sidelock DRs have always been backlocks, whereas Rigby and Purdey were barlocks. Purdey did use a bolstered frame on their nitros from early on, but Holland added a bolster in the 1920s as well. Rigby didn't use one until very late in the game. Ironically, it's the Hollands that seem to have the issue with staying on face.

Westley's droplock is an Anson & Deeley body action gun (boxlock) with hand detachable locks that can be removed through a hinged floor plate. The original purpose of the design was apparently to eliminate the visible ends of the pins that the lockwork of a boxlock are mounted on, as Leslie Taylor had decided they were unsightly. The primary benefit is precisely that, but the removable locks are easier to clean, or repair in the field - if you have a spare set of locks.

(.375 member)

15/12/09 12:04 PM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

I believe only Purdey and Holland & Holland have in-house barrel regulators, according to the folks at Shooting Sportman magazine.

(.416 member)

15/12/09 12:27 PM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

I know of one Boss double rifle with a palace armory in South India and I have handled that gun. The owner is not reachable at the moment but I shall try to obtain pictures for this forum. he is an old man, though, and a hammer and chisel tech kind of guy - someone else would have to take the pics and mail them to me. May take a little time, but I shall arrange this. It is an exquisite gun, no question about it.

BTW Boss do list their double rifles on their website. They were unusual in offering both SxS and U/O configurations, which the website suggests they still offer. No pics though and I do wish they would update their website. It is a disgrace for a company that builds beautiful guns.

(.224 member)

16/12/09 05:44 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

I just go to know that purdey DRs are more expensive :-o, I was under the impression it was the other way around .Surprising considering the fact that most enthusiasts consider H and H to be the best whe it comes to DRs.

Btw do they actually make a noticeable profit considering the fact that these guns are produced in such limited numbers(guns and rifles).

(.450 member)

16/12/09 06:18 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

aj

Purdey has the name.

IMHO, "most enthusiasts consider H and H to be the best when it comes to DRs" because they made so many of them and did such a good job of it (albeit Webley & Scott up to a certain point).

It is what they are so well known for.

(.224 member)

16/12/09 07:34 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

but considering the fact that gunmaking is more about craftmanship ,should it be rated based on which maker has the best gunmaker in their roll rather than the brand,had it been somthing which was very technology oriented then yes brand would help because it automatically means resources to offer abetter prodcut but somthing like a double rifle or shotgun where craftmanship is the main aspect should guns be priced as per the gunmaker who works on them?

(.450 member)

16/12/09 07:54 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

aj

The problem is, many gunsmiths make a gun, so it could be hard.

(.224 member)

16/12/09 09:38 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

So in comparison to the big names how would small makers such as P NELSON ,Hartmann and Weiss or Max Ern and many similar good gunmakers would they appriecte as an investment , if I am right they are famous and in demand because of certain individuals behind the brand but would they retain their value or appreciate say like a purdey or a H and H in another 70 or 100 years?

(.400 member)

16/12/09 10:12 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

So in comparison to the big names how would small makers such as P NELSON ,Hartmann and Weiss or Max Ern and many similar good gunmakers would they appriecte as an investment , if I am right they are famous and in demand because of certain individuals behind the brand but would they retain their value or appreciate say like a purdey or a H and H in another 70 or 100 years?

Those who live will tell, but im sure that no one bought a h&h 100 years ago as an investment, who nows perhaps a opscure little smith will be the next "H&H" in 100 years.

(.450 member)

16/12/09 11:34 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Hartmann & Weiss - yes, definately.

You have to remember that alot of guns with brand names on them - Rigby, H&H, Jeffrey etc were made by others - Webley, Leanord etc etc.

(.375 member)

16/12/09 12:57 PM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

Hartmann & Weiss - yes, definately.

You have to remember that alot of guns with brand names on them - Rigby, H&H, Jeffrey etc were made by others - Webley, Leanord etc etc.

Check out Phillip Ollendorff

(.224 member)

17/12/09 04:13 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

I was looking thorough the older posts in the forum and this question popped up in my head, how many of us would pay big bucks for a rifle which was developed using a lot of current technology and comparatively less craftsmanship than currently used, also assuming the additional use of modern technology has definitely improved the quality of the product.

Do we tend to value craftsmanship for the sake of it or because it genuinely leads to a better product or do we tend to look down on newer technology in gun manufacturing just because it lacks the charm of a person doing it all by hand?

(.450 member)

17/12/09 05:46 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

"look down on newer technology in gun manufacturing just because it lacks the charm of a person doing it all by hand? "

Damn good post aj.

I would say I am of the above, with the word "charm" being put to good use.

(.375 member)

17/12/09 06:25 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Even the artisans at Purdey's utilize CNC machining extensively to get the metal and wood down to the point where hand-fitting and finishing are then brought into play. It's the skill, time, and attention at the final stages that make all the difference.

(.400 member)

18/12/09 01:02 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

I was looking thorough the older posts in the forum and this question popped up in my head, how many of us would pay big bucks for a rifle which was developed using a lot of current technology and comparatively less craftsmanship than currently used, also assuming the additional use of modern technology has definitely improved the quality of the product.

Do we tend to value craftsmanship for the sake of it or because it genuinely leads to a better product or do we tend to look down on newer technology in gun manufacturing just because it lacks the charm of a person doing it all by hand?

Me - because otherwise they'd be even more expensive!
It would be great to see technology move on to Fabbri levels - especially for barrel joining...

(.400 member)

18/12/09 01:50 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

It would be great to see technology move on to Fabbri levels - especially for barrel joining...

Welding them complete with regulation and all? Hard to see it work on a double rifle but on shotgun why not.

(.450 member)

18/12/09 02:15 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

Even the artisans at Purdey's utilize CNC machining extensively to get the metal and wood down to the point where hand-fitting and finishing are then brought into play. It's the skill, time, and attention at the final stages that make all the difference.

Why wouldn't you ?

Why would you take away large amounts of metal by hand when it can be done by machine ? Seems to me to be common sense.

After all, barrels have been made by "machine" for a long time.

(.333 member)

18/12/09 04:39 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Just take a look at the Blaser double and You can see what happens if only machines are used in making a double. There is virtually no craftmanship involved, only CNC machines.
Well, obviously some like them, but to me it is a mystery why anybody can consider buying one of these ugly tools. Just my humble opinion of course.

Kalunga

(.450 member)

18/12/09 05:23 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Kalunga

Yes, understand.

My previous post was referring to this
"CNC machining extensively to get the metal and wood down to the point where hand-fitting and finishing are then brought into play."

And we can all see which bit the Blaser is missing !!!

(.224 member)

18/12/09 05:24 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Well it need not be just the machines what am I am trying to say is anything that would make the gun better should be used ,I was reading on Fabbari shotguns a while back,they for sure aint ugly.

Also based on what I have been reading recently I dont see any innovations being made with regards to double rifles recently,most of them were the ones that were made a century back.It could be because now its become a far more niche product compared to what it was a century back .

(.224 member)

18/12/09 05:37 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Who makes the best rising Bite action DR at the moment?

(.450 member)

18/12/09 05:38 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

aj

2 of the last innovations in DR's have been

1. The Krieghoff
2. The Blaser

In reality, what is there to innovate ?

The things work as designed and work reliably.

(.416 member)

18/12/09 05:38 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

French gunsmith Christian Ducros, admired as "Le magicien des armes," once described his aim in building guns as challenging machines by hand to achieve superior levels of fit and finish. Clearly there are people willing to pay for work by individual gunsmiths like Ducros, Alain Vaussenat, Philippe Ollendorf, P V Nelson, Trevor Proctor, Johann Vilhjalmsson (who posts here and whom I regard as a friend) and more in addition to firms that built a deservedly good reputation for themselves over the past 100 years. There are new talents coming up by the dday now as gunmaking scchools in Ferlach, Suhl etc come up and the finest bolt action rifles get built in the USA by gunsmiths educated at Trinidad State in Colorado.

Speaking of individual gunsmiths and their guns and lasting value, last I checked, the most valuable collector guns in the world were made for European royalty by Nicolas Boutet in the muzzleloading era. That there is no Armurerie in Boutet's name or that he ahd no successors has not affected the value of his masterpieces one bit.

There will be brand whores who endlessly debate one brand over another - as useful a pastime as discussing how many spirits dance on a pin. All of the reputable brands and individual gunmakers made decent guns, all of them turned out the occasional clunker, and the best designs survived while some good ones didn;t for some reason or the other. Anything that is desired can be made today and there are gunsmiths to make it. All it takes is money.

(.400 member)

18/12/09 05:48 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

aj

2 of the last innovations in DR's have been

1. The Krieghoff
2. The Blaser

In reality, what is there to innovate ?

The things work as designed and work reliably.

Not really anny new inventions are they? (well the r93 is a bit on the newer side) but they are new in doubles as you state.

The only new one i can think off is the german bullpup double.

(.416 member)

18/12/09 09:59 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

The Szecsei-Fuchs double bolt is a new invention. Unconventional, sure, and the inventor does post here occasionally. I don't think anything like it existed before . . .

(.400 member)

18/12/09 11:40 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

Who makes the best rising Bite action DR at the moment?

Rigby California!

I know Max Ern makes them and now Rigby London. Anyone else?

(.450 member)

18/12/09 11:49 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

Quote:

Who makes the best rising Bite action DR at the moment?

Rigby California!

Now that's funny LOL

Quote:

Quote:

Who makes the best rising Bite action DR at the moment? [/quote)

I know Max Ern makes them and now Rigby London. Anyone else?

Who's Max Ern ????

I know Searcy is making them.

(.400 member)

19/12/09 01:19 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

Who's Max Ern ????

Have a look - http://www.max-ern.com/english/home.htm

(.400 member)

19/12/09 01:37 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

Quote:

It would be great to see technology move on to Fabbri levels - especially for barrel joining...

Welding them complete with regulation and all? Hard to see it work on a double rifle but on shotgun why not.

I take your point - but I'm sure some of the technology could be applied to DRs as well. For example, Fabbri offer stainless barrels as an option; the barrels are blacked using a diamond powder coating and specially designed vacuum process (so I'm told - don't know how common this is); in their over-unders they do not use side ribs - they are made from solid with a crosspiece forming an H-frame carrier along their entire length, which is in turn machined for precise weight distribution and adjusting the point of impact; and they use lasers to fuse the rib and demi-bloc tubes to avoid heat distortion and end up with one piece of stainless steel... All in all they seem to be pushing at some boundaries.... if they were rifle builders, you can bet they might come up with some interesting ideas too! None of which would come cheap though!!!

(.400 member)

19/12/09 03:53 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Yeas they do seem to lead the automatication of the building of best guns, and the customer are paying some top dollar for their guns, so much it makes me wonder if its better then the usuall manual labor done by other respected firms. If they go to making double rifles i could probably buy a whole arsenal in london for the price of one of theirs.

And you are absolutely right, the way they put those tubes together tickles the mind,
and it would be damn fun to see them start building rifles and to see how they would do it.

btw, their facilities hasnt come cheap either, so a bit will go there also.

(.224 member)

19/12/09 06:46 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

I am not sure if this link is a recent one,but I did not see this the day beofre while I was reading on them,looks like they do have a website.

http://www.hartmannandweiss.com/en/double-barrelled-rifles.php

(.450 member)

19/12/09 09:06 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

Quote:

Who's Max Ern ????

Have a look - http://www.max-ern.com/english/home.htm

Thank you for that.

I had heard the name before but had never done any research.

(.224 member)

22/12/09 12:56 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

could some one help me understand,why is it high pressure cartridges are not used on double rifles,is there any gunmaker who does make it with one effectively?

(.400 member)

22/12/09 03:42 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

I think most will chamber one for 375H&H, thats at least high for older standards, but there are numerous in various 416 calibar also. Not forgetting the german 7mm double rifles.

(.224 member)

25/12/09 05:21 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

I was browsing through Peter Hofers guns,would any one have the heart to hunt with those rifles?Shotguns I understand but those 470 ne rifles in african bushes...

Btw how much do those guns cost,just the guns?

Anonymous

(Unregistered)

25/12/09 06:34 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

I was browsing through Peter Hofers guns,would any one have the heart to hunt with those rifles?Shotguns I understand but those 470 ne rifles in african bushes...

Btw how much do those guns cost,just the guns?

His shotguns run from $155,000.00 on up to $1,000,000.00 same goes for his double rifles and combinations guns. Bolt guns vary from $65,000.00 to sky's the limit as well. I have hunted with a bolt gun and a double rifle in 300H&H of his, some of the finest weapons I have handled.

(.224 member)

30/12/09 01:06 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

Quote:

I was browsing through Peter Hofers guns,would any one have the heart to hunt with those rifles?Shotguns I understand but those 470 ne rifles in african bushes...

Btw how much do those guns cost,just the guns?

His shotguns run from $155,000.00 on up to $1,000,000.00 same goes for his double rifles and combinations guns. Bolt guns vary from $65,000.00 to sky's the limit as well. I have hunted with a bolt gun and a double rifle in 300H&H of his, some of the finest weapons I have handled.

Generalwar,

From what I�ve read in the other threads seems like you are the only one if not one the few members on this site who had the opportunity to own a Boss Dr .It would be great if you could give me your point of view on them, especially in comparison to other gun makers such as H and H ,WR or Purdey.

Thank you

Anonymous

(Unregistered)

30/12/09 05:01 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Yes, I had a pair of Boss DR's I sold them to Bob Lee of Hunting World a while back. Excellent guns and almost never seen as a pair.

(.224 member)

30/12/09 09:05 PM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

Yes, I had a pair of Boss DR's I sold them to Bob Lee of Hunting World a while back. Excellent guns and almost never seen as a pair.

I see that among the London big 3 Boss seems to be the only one totally left out of the DR scene .Purdey you do hear and see about the occasional( and wonderful) DR every year.
In you opinion what do you think is the reason, they do not make many as not much demand for boss DRs or since they do not make many ppl assume they are not good at it. From your personal experience how do they stack up against H and H ,purdey or probably even Westley Richards ?

Thank you

Anonymous

(Unregistered)

31/12/09 04:11 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

Quote:

Yes, I had a pair of Boss DR's I sold them to Bob Lee of Hunting World a while back. Excellent guns and almost never seen as a pair.

I see that among the London big 3 Boss seems to be the only one totally left out of the DR scene .Purdey you do hear and see about the occasional( and wonderful) DR every year.
In you opinion what do you think is the reason, they do not make many as not much demand for boss DRs or since they do not make many ppl assume they are not good at it. From your personal experience how do they stack up against H and H ,purdey or probably even Westley Richards ?

Thank you

Boss like Purdey is known for there wonderful shotguns mostly, but because they are bespoke makers at least Boss was anyway, very few rifles have been made available to witness. I believe to this day Purdey has built around 400 DR's, Boss much much less. The extra finish Purdey DR's I own are among the finest DR's I have handled in every regard.. The pre war Boss's as well..

(.224 member)

31/12/09 06:14 AM

Re: WESTLEY RICHARDS-drop lock

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Yes, I had a pair of Boss DR's I sold them to Bob Lee of Hunting World a while back. Excellent guns and almost never seen as a pair.

I see that among the London big 3 Boss seems to be the only one totally left out of the DR scene .Purdey you do hear and see about the occasional( and wonderful) DR every year.
In you opinion what do you think is the reason, they do not make many as not much demand for boss DRs or since they do not make many ppl assume they are not good at it. From your personal experience how do they stack up against H and H ,purdey or probably even Westley Richards ?

Thank you

Boss like Purdey is known for there wonderful shotguns mostly, but because they are bespoke makers at least Boss was anyway, very few rifles have been made available to witness. I believe to this day Purdey has built around 400 DR's, Boss much much less. The extra finish Purdey DR's I own are among the finest DR's I have handled in every regard.. The pre war Boss's as well..

I happended to see pictures of your purdey rifles ,you are a very lucky man

.I also noticed you have a soft corner for purdey ,so in you opinion which gunmaker at present would rival Purdey or better them

.

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