| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 05/03/09 03:03 AM |
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Boycott Barnes Bullets!
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Barnes bullets needs to fight the "green" bullet debate, as it's not about bullets, but rather anti-hunting!
Edited.
First post was too harsh. I still think Barnes needs to fight the anti-lead movement as it's another wedge issue with the anti-gun anti-hunting crowd.
| DuggaBoy |
| (.300 member) |
| 05/03/09 03:52 AM |
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Quote:
Barnes bullets need to shut the $#&* up regarding the "green" bullet debate, as it's not about bullets, but rather anti-hunting!
I sympathize with your exasperation. You and I are dinosaurs in the face of "eco-globalism" where emotion and and non-scientific ignorance rule the day.
"Our" world is not a friendly place to those of us involved in "bloodsport"
While in theory you may be correct, Coni and Randy need to be able to run there buisness as they see fit for their survival. In the face of the evidence they sift through and in managing the slippery slope of opinion and economics they have a tough row to hoe.
I load fewer of Barnes projectiles than others manufactures, though I like the products, I find in my weapons the performance of modern construction technique lead core projectiles to be quite satisfactory.
| mickey |
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| 05/03/09 04:21 AM |
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Quote:
Barnes bullets need to shut the $#&* up regarding the "green" bullet debate, as it's not about bullets, but rather anti-hunting!
I agree. Barnes has always just been about themselves anyway. Their bullets are not worth the effort in DRs anyway and in single barrel rifles there are many better choices.
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 05/03/09 04:28 AM |
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Funny, I was just talking to Hornady about this issue.
Bullet companies {ALL of them} need to POOL research on environmental impact of lead from bullets in the ground. It is minimal/non-existent.
They MUST be proactive!
The Swedes have been wrestling with this issue and some interesting research was compiled from battlefield sites where bullets had been "deposited" at known dates in history, with little/no migration of lead oxide or lead contaminants of any sort.
Trap ranges the country over have been the subject of tests and little/no migration is present under almost all conditions and in almost all soil types. And this with very small "particles" of lead.
Barnes is VERY short sighted.
Copper is also a "toxic" substance that has its own material/chemical migration issues that are also small or virtually undetectable. But to assume that copper will be left alone for very long by the so-called "green" movement {really, a collection of leftist political types AND raw, unvarnished greed-monger Madison Avenue marketers} is ridiculoous.
Ask this:
What is "Green"?
Answer?
Anything the marketers can convince the masses is "Green".
We need to be in the fray doing some convincing, too.
Why am I concerned?
Because my shooting range is over my water supply and I don't want lead contaminant in my iced tea.
This is yet another bullshit Green Scare and we need to get the facts out.
Are there possibilities for lead migration?
Yes, under certain circumstances;
Shooting steel plates can cause vaporization of small amounts of lead and those resulting particles can theoretically be a problem. But bullet lead in the soil? Only in very highly acidic soils and even then the migration of lead appears to be very small.
That is, virtually non-migrating.
| Tatume |
| (.400 member) |
| 05/03/09 04:38 AM |
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Re: Boycott Barnes Bullets!
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Quote:
Ask this:
What is "Green"?
Answer?
Barnes bullets left in the ground. :-)
| Tatume |
| (.400 member) |
| 05/03/09 04:44 AM |
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Re: Boycott Barnes Bullets!
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Hello Folks,
Since no explanation was given in the original post, I went looking. This is the only reference I could find that was directly attributable to Barnes Bullets.
http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/Barnes%20Position%20Statement%20CA%20non-lead%202008a.pdf
Barnes Bullets Does Not Support A Lead Ban
It has come to our attention that negative allegations are being circulated about Barnes Bullets’
involvement in the California lead ban issue. To clarify, Barnes has not funded or supported
efforts to further the advancement of any lead ban, nor will we ever.
Barnes is a bullet manufacturer. We are not biologists and have no expertise in this field;
however, it is our position that this type of legislation or any legislation further restricting hunters
and shooters their freedom of choice of products they care to use on the range and in the field is
a threat and devastating to the hunting and shooting industry and community.
Bullet performance is what drives Barnes' designs. Whether a Barnes bullet contains a lead core
or not depends on the desired terminal performance. Barnes currently offers several lines of
products manufactured from lead-free materials that were developed for their performance
characteristics. These products happen to meet the criteria set forth under the Condor
Preservation Act. However, Barnes still manufactures its premium Original™ line of jacketed,
lead-cored bullets. A lead ban removes the very foundation on which the company was built.
When Randy Brooks developed the all-copper X-Bullet in the mid 1980's, it never even crossed
his mind that this bullet would one day be considered environmentally friendly. He simply wanted
a more reliable bullet that would retain its weight, penetrate deeply, and create a devastating
wound cavity.
Copper bullets are far more difficult to manufacture than lead-cored bullets. Copper bullets
require advanced technology and tooling, and increased testing during production to produce a
superior product. In the impact extrusion manufacturing process, lead flows like water compared
to copper. Copper is hard on both tooling and equipment, but the results are a bullet that delivers
the best terminal performance on game.
Barnes Bullets was invited, along with other manufacturers, to give a presentation to the
California Fish & Game Commission about lead-free products offered by their respective
companies in August, 2007. It was our intent to provide information to the commission at their
request (as stated by Commissioner John Carlson in this meeting). You can view the presentation
Barnes gave at this meeting by going to www.cal-span.org, click on Fish & Game Commission on
the left-hand side navigation menu, then scroll down to the August 27, 2007 meeting and click the
“Complete” link to view the meeting. The Barnes presentation begins at 3:06:30 and ends at
3:22:00.
Barnes Bullets will continue to offer products manufactured from materials that enhance
performance, just as we have done for over 75 years. Further information regarding the Barnes
products may be obtained from our website at www.barnesbullets.com. Our free DVD “Bullet
Myths Busted” is available through the website or by calling toll-free 1.800.574.9200.
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 05/03/09 05:02 AM |
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Tom, this is their official position and thanks for posting. I have spoken to the company about it.
My concern is that I believe the bullet companies need to be VERY proactive in assembling research data.
I believe they need to assist each other {funding if need be} to get the facts out, facts that will benefit all of them.
| 450_366 |
| (.400 member) |
| 05/03/09 05:35 AM |
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Dont forget the germans that banned the lead free bullets, they have a much higher risk of richoshets, even streight back on the shooter.
This lead bann is only a "modern green" politic idea, and as it is at current date not supported of any facts that lead in metallic form is hazardus in any way(that is if not given some speed
).And barnes is only another company that tryes to ride the "enviroment train" as many are nowdays.
Anyone with a pellet gun should protest against any form of treath against lead ammunition, if they bann the lead in ammo, they take away the early shooting experience from many cids. Thats probably what they want, as fever shooters are easyer to control and a total gun bann wouldnt affect as many humans.
| Tatume |
| (.400 member) |
| 05/03/09 08:53 AM |
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The Barnes position paper includes a link to their testimony before the California Fish & Game Commission. I listened to it, and heard nothing objectional from the Barnes representative. The idiots on the F&GC were something else altogether! Those guys have been smoking too much of California's agriculture.
| Kalunga |
| (.333 member) |
| 05/03/09 09:38 AM |
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As I told earlier on this forum, lead containing bullets were banned in one part of Germany because it is proven that eagles have been killed by eating dead animals that contained bullets or part of bullets made from lead. It had nothing to do with lead contaminating the soil, which obviously doesn`t happen to a degree worth mentioning. But in Germany there are only very few eagles and I think it is a good idea to protect them, even if we hunters have to adjust our equipment. I have killed buffalo with Barnes X and TSX bullets so it should be no problem to use lead free bullets (any brand) for shooting wild boars, deer etc. Also it is proven that lead particles from conventional bullets contaminate the meat of the animal shot with it and that is another reason to think about lead free bullets.
That the lead free bullets were banned at a later time had to do with an accident where a ricocheted bullet killed a person and the authorities quickly acted although it is still not clear if a conventional bullet would have been safer in that particular case. As far as I know there is still some research going on to get reliable data on ricochet behaviour of bullets. Here in Europe there is a lot of competition going on with lead free bullets and many hunters use them with good success.
BTW, I use Lapua Mega in my 9,3x62 and Woodleigh SN in my .470 but I admit that lead has some disadvantages and may cause a health risk to animals and humans under certain circumstances.
Kalunga
| Tatume |
| (.400 member) |
| 05/03/09 12:28 PM |
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Re: Boycott Barnes Bullets!
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Quote:
Also it is proven that lead particles from conventional bullets contaminate the meat of the animal shot with it and that is another reason to think about lead free bullets.
This is simply not true. It has been demonstrated that lead from bullets or shot poses to significant risk to consumers of wild game.
| Bramble |
| (.375 member) |
| 05/03/09 12:47 PM |
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Re: Boycott Barnes Bullets!
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I think that the whole thing is a crock of greeney nonsense. The only birds that I belive died of lead did so by ingesting it at 1200 fps or so. If a bird hasent got the sense not to eat the big shiney thing in the middle of the carrion it has found then such birds would have died out years ago by ingesting all sorts of shit.
I watch the rooks around here in London eating all sorts of shit out of the bins and they damm well don't eat the tin foil that the left over Chinese meals come in. Seems to me then that by the greeney definition, Eagles are too dumb to live. Who are we then to interfear with Darwinian evolution.
This same rubbish was used to ban lead shot here some years ago and ever since I have stood on shooting lines watching hundreds of ducks get crippled that would have fallen to decent size lead shot. It is just one more example of the nanny states in which we all reside now that will not keep their snouts out of things that they don't understand.
I don't have anythin against Barnes, I've never used a mono metal bullet. I just see them as a balistic slution to a problem that dosent exist.
Regards
| Der_Jaeger |
| (.375 member) |
| 05/03/09 01:05 PM |
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I have a few comments on this:
1. I'm not sure what this really means. Both copper and lead are "heavy metals" and can be toxic in the body. Lead, Mercury, and Plutonium are most toxic and serve no benefit to the body. Iron, Cobalt, Copper, Manganese, Molybdenum, and Zinc can also be toxic, but also can have beneficial effects.
2. Lead shot is being used all over the world to hunt small game and upland birds. How much lead do people really eat from game? What are the other more potent sources of lead poisoning in our society? I guarantee it isn't from ammo containing lead. Lead poisoning is easily recognized and diagnosed so, where are these people????
3. I have a lot of ammo that contains lead that I'm going to use on game regardless of legislation
4. I never eat meat within 2-3 inches of a wound channel made from a rifle.
5. This "lead free" push is being supported and funded by the anti-hunting groups and is backed by the Obama administration.
6. Talking with the DNR officers there, they have found that using steel shot for waterfowl on their lands has had just as harmful if not a worse effect on the wildlife than lead shot. The steel quickly begins to corrode, and significantly increases the iron content in everything. Too much iron causes liver, heart, and brain damage.
This "anti-lead" ammo stuff is pure BS.
NitroX
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| 05/03/09 01:36 PM |
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Quote:
As I told earlier on this forum, lead containing bullets were banned in one part of Germany because it is proven that eagles have been killed by eating dead animals that contained bullets or part of bullets made from lead.
Kalunga
Was there documentary evidence of this? The eagles would have to eat a fair number of lead bullets I would have thought?
In Australia most eagles die from eating birds that have eaten poisoned grain.
| 500grains |
| (.416 member) |
| 05/03/09 01:44 PM |
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In order to boycott Barnes bullets, I do not need to make any change to my behavior.
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 05/03/09 01:57 PM |
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The issue with birds involves the crop.
Lead masquerades as grit and is used to grind food particles. Birds don't have teeth ya' know.
It's still bullshit of course, but the mental picture of a bird filling its crop with lead particles found in gut piles {as if there are any...} is enough to sway the legislators and even sane and sober voters.
I swear I think Western Culture is ready to utterly and completely collapse...
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 05/03/09 04:43 PM |
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Quote:
In order to boycott Barnes bullets, I do not need to make any change to my behavior.
So did you ever go down and see the movie?
| 450_366 |
| (.400 member) |
| 05/03/09 05:34 PM |
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Quote:
The issue with birds involves the crop.
Lead masquerades as grit and is used to grind food particles. Birds don't have teeth ya' know.
It's still bullshit of course, but the mental picture of a bird filling its crop with lead particles found in gut piles {as if there are any...} is enough to sway the legislators and even sane and sober voters.
I swear I think Western Culture is ready to utterly and completely collapse...
I think its the duch you are thinking of, they swollow stones into the mussle stummach to help digest and grind the food. As the are one of the few birds with an strong enough acidus stumach fluid they do suffer from it, that is if they take the pellets together with the stones from the buttom of a lake.
So banning lead shots over shallow water makes sense, as they did in sweden, and here almost none complaines was made over it as it makes sense and we like to ceep our game as healthy as possible.
The lead free bullet is just stupit and i would love to see the proof with the eagle involved.
| Kalunga |
| (.333 member) |
| 05/03/09 05:49 PM |
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For those of You that can read and understand German, here a link to an article in a newspaper, dealing with the problem of dying eagles from lead poisoning:
http://www.berlinonline.de/berliner-zeit...0318/index.html
Lead poisoning from rifle bullets containing lead is the main reason of death (33%) with eagles in northern Germany ! In this article You can read that a forensic expert from the University of Rostock examined the stomach contents of eagles that have been found dead. He could show that they died from lead poisoning and that tiny rifle bullet fragments were the source of lead, not shotgun pellets. He could even tell the brand of the bullet due to the mixture of the lead alloy.
Another statement from RWS, one of the bigger makers of ammo in Germany:
http://www.rws-munition.de/de/stuff/bleifrei.htm
They emphasize that the ballistic advantages of rifle bullets containing lead as well as lead shot are superior to all alternatives but they offer lead free rifle bullets and steel shot in order to help saving the eagles.
Kalunga
| Kalunga |
| (.333 member) |
| 05/03/09 06:05 PM |
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Here some more in English:
http://www.fadr.msu.ru/o-washinet/lead.html
http://www.northlandoutdoors.com/index_articles.cfm?id=108666&property_id=36
Kalunga
| 450_366 |
| (.400 member) |
| 05/03/09 09:35 PM |
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You are right it seems as the bullet did poison the eagles, here i havent heard about any such incidents concerning eagles.
But instead of banning lead i have a suggestion, stop using semi varmint bullets on large animals or if you still use them, bring a showel and dig the remains down.
Il bet that this will spread to us also, even if we use normal bullets, they will use it as an example of what could happen, and the greens will use it as a fact of what are happening.
| Kalunga |
| (.333 member) |
| 05/03/09 09:56 PM |
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Andreas, I totally agree with You ! A good bonded bullet will keep together and not a lot of lead fragments are left in the meat. Also I agree with You that the greens are just looking for ANY reason to ban any form of hunting. Well they buy their meat and their leather jackets in the supermarket.
Kalunga
| 450_366 |
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| 05/03/09 10:21 PM |
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You are right about the modern human, they get their meat at the store and never tells their children it comes from animals. They are afraid that the kids will think that animals are food.
Its such a bad thing that a so little group of individuals (greens) has so big exposure in all the TV.s and papers/internet.
Its time that all hunters and farmers did something to try and change the way the wourld are going,
im not saying that the work of getting rid of pollution is wrong, only that humans are getting less in contact with nature. Nowdays the greens sitt in their flats in the citties and controles the ones that still lives in the country, not knowing how dependent they are from us. Where the hell do they think the stores get the meat of flower?
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 06/03/09 12:53 AM |
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I am somewhat skeptical about the studies.
I read quite some time ago some criticism of the studies done on California Condor lead issue but cannot find it.
Tatume, do you have any more information on that?
Is it possible certain raptors have now reached numbers in excess of the carrying capacity of their ecosystems, and has corresponding work been done to determine the longterm affect of raptor-hunting bans?
My ranch is covered in golden eagles, bald eagles and small raptors of many kinds. They are all totally protected. Establishing game bird and other bird populations is a total waste of time. I know because I spent 5 years trying to do it, getting good, established numbers and then watching them all over time be annihilated by raptors. Several other bird farmers in the area assert this very same thing. We are awash in raptors, and devoid of game birds. Except for the small towns/villages where some of the bird migrated and are fed by townsfolk and protected by virtue of their proximity to people.
50 years ago the exact opposite was true.
My values are that it was better the other way. Or maybe at least I should suggest we might need far fewer raptors without totally annihilating them.
In my opinion, here at least, the golden and bald eagles have become pests. During hay making season we will routinely watch 8 or 9 large predators hovering over the fields. Last week I darn near hit a bald eagle on the highway as it swooped down low, trolling for road kill. We have watched bald and golden eagles kill winter-weakened deer.
In California, is it possible that competition from other protected raptors has caused reductions in Condor populations?
Dare I say it {since predators now seem to have reached GOD Status in modern western nations}, but I think we just plain have too many of them.
Heil der allmächtige Vogelgott! NICHT!!
I am starting to believe we have lost the war.
All non-human sheep and deer killers protected, game birds killer protected, elk killers protected. Hell, even the pedophiles are protected anymore. Read who is released from prison in your communities and what they were in for and you will see that is an unassailable truth.
If you can gain predator status, life is golden...
PS: Here's what a very tough 10 miles on my ski boots turned up in the mountains yesterday, and lots of it:
| Ripp |
| (.577 member) |
| 06/03/09 02:13 AM |
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Quote:
PS: Here's what a very tough 10 miles on my ski boots turned up in the mountains yesterday, and lots of it:
9.3
I have always heard those that left the tracks are partial to neck jewelry....
Ripp
| Bramble |
| (.375 member) |
| 06/03/09 07:09 AM |
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Before I would accept any study these days I would wish to know from whence came the funding for the "impartial" scientist.
Regards
| Tatume |
| (.400 member) |
| 06/03/09 08:03 AM |
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Before I would accept any study these days I would wish to know from whence came the funding for the "impartial" scientist.
Although I understand and sympathize with your feelings, I am terribly distressed to hear you say it. This is an outcome of scientists allowing their biases to interfere with their objectivity. It is for this very reason that I counsel scientists to stay out of environmental advocacy.
By allowing advocacy to creep into science, we now have a situation where science is believed or dismissed based on the outcome. If someone doesn’t like the report, it is considered “cooked” and buried. If someone agrees with the report, it is paraded on the stage like a trained bear.
That’s not the way science should be. My reports are what they are, no matter how much out of favor it might make me. When I was a graduate student I had an eye-opening experience. I will never forget the night before my presentation at an important conference, when my major professor came to my hotel room and said, “you have to change the conclusions section of your paper. The wind is blowing the other way.” My paper was good science, and I did not change it. I did change major professors, and dropped that fellow like a hot potato.
Science should be published in peer-reviewed journals, and everyone who is qualified to judge should scrutinize the papers critically. Only then can we trust the results. And, scientists should stay out of politics. It tarnished our credibility, and NEVER does any good.
| Ripp |
| (.577 member) |
| 06/03/09 01:07 PM |
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Tatume,
Agree with you completely--but, there has been so much biased bullshit set forth by the scientific community, I am afraid the damage is done and it will take some time before the masses will accept what the scientific community puts forth...perfect case in point is the global warming issue..
Having said that, it isn't just the scientific community doing this. Many are a player in this game..
Ripp
| 450_366 |
| (.400 member) |
| 06/03/09 07:14 PM |
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Trust nowone and question everything, thats how I raise my children and the way I was brought up.
Humans are better of not nowing and understanding what is happening around them, but a small goroup as the greens are making to much noise and the politicans are using it to get votes. The average human believes what stands in the paper and what he hears on the radio, whitout question it, not as Bramble who has an good idea how it realy works.
Thats why hunters and farmers should make themself heard, in a reasent study at least 60% of men and 45% of women in sweden ar pro hunting (if i remember right) and still the 3% greens are taking the rodder
. Hell we have 300,000 (9 mil. pop.) that every year pays the hunting-card fee to the goverment, thats the ones that are active hunters, not included their wifes, friend, kids, relatives or old retired hunters (and poachers).Btw, scientists should never agree with each other, they should always try to get new proof that the other ones conclusion was wrong.
| bwananelson |
| (.400 member) |
| 16/03/09 08:26 AM |
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cant hunt ducks with lead shot today.shooting ranges are getting flack about lead.i guess if you really want to be green use a bow.but barnes has been good to hunting and hunters for years i wont boycott them i applaude them.half the big game species in north america have fallen to my barnes bullets and none i repeat none had to be shot twice,did not have to blood trail them either none went more than 20 yards not even the grizzly.thier contribution to conservation groups has been great.they are hunters like you and i.if you look close they are being copied alot.so they must be doing something right.sorry yopu dont get my vote on this one