Well mike,

I butted out of this thread early on because I could see it becoming one of those 45-70 things but as you asked me a direct question I think you deserve an answer.

For 50 yds I imagine off a rest I don't think it is so hot. I don't think I own a rifle that will not go hole touching hole at that range off a rest. Of course I have no way of knowing what that particular rifle will do with a normal load, or how good the shooter is, so to be absolutly fair I should not have criticised the load without that information. But I believe without going back that it was shot by a regular contributer who is a good shot.

That's 50 rounds in 5 30 second strings one after the other, off hand, open sights at the same distence sorry about the fliers but that was me and not the rifle or load.
I have never shot off a rest at that distence apart from regulation and I have no rested pics at that range.
It is not a stopping rifle, but I don't see that as an issue, if, the cartridge is balanced with the weight of the gun. That is one of the reasons that I so dislike way out of the envelope loads, because the punishment the firer recieves prevents good shooting.

That is a 9.3 off hand at the same distence

Why would you want a .458 good for 200 yds.? IMO because if that is what you happen to be carrying when something pops up then it has to be able to do the business or you must pass. I have shot pigs at 100 ish in the company of another forum member whilst carrying a 450#2 double and use the 9.3 on plains game 100-150 with open sights again with a forum witness.

Look at it this way, if the best that one can do personaly, is hold the sights to within a 4" circle at 100 yards, then if the rifle shoots 1"@ 100 then at worst you will be 3" from point of aim. However if that rifle shoots 3" groups at 100 yds then at worst you will be 5" from where you want to hit that beast. To me that makes a difference.
I have just doubled the group sises from 50-100. IIRC Daryl suggested that a 1.3 50 yard load will shoot much larger groups than 3" @ 100.

There is no such thing as a "crap shot" IMO. If a person is not the greatest shot in the world but works within his boundaries he may be a fantastic hunter. I'm a crap golfer (22 Hdcp') but you wouldent want to have a fiver with me coming down the 18th

The only "crap shots" IMHO are those who will not accept either their limitations or the limitations of the rifle that they are carrying and wound game as a consiquence.

Regards