Hauptjäger
(.275 member)
14/01/04 01:08 PM
Control round feed or not?

To control round feed or not to control round feed that is the question…

I am still looking into to building a 9.3x64 (unless someone can suggest a better caliber), and I see that some writers like the Control round feed and other like Woods, and Taylor love it but American writers, like Boudintion (Sp) seem to support the “advantages” of push feed? Does “accuracy” out way total control of the shell from the mag. to the chamber? What advice can you give?


4seventy
(Sponsor)
14/01/04 02:35 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

In my opinion the controlled feed action is better than push feed.
The biggest benefit with controlled feed is that it is almost impossible to do a double feed.
By double feed I mean trying to chamber a cartridge up the arse of a cartridge already in the chamber, and creating a jammmed action.


NONE
(.300 member)
14/01/04 03:27 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

I think the importance of one over another is not as much a concern in a rifle not used for dangerous game.

For myself the controlled feed on a DG rifle is a requirement not a option. I own and love my push feeds some of my favorite rifles are built on REM actions (my personal favorite rifle is a REM 40X action I had built in .308) but for me a push feed in any caliber from .375H&H and above is a deal breaker, I wont look twice at the rifle for any price.
It may very well never be a issue for most but be assured when things do go bad its yet one more weak link in the chain in a already deteriorating situation and when the chips are down you need all on your side you can muster IMO.

James F. Nixon III


Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
15/01/04 09:47 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

of the three high-powers I have, the CRF is my favorite, and I won't buy another repeater that isn't CRF... well, ok, maybe one...

in anything outside of a varmint rifle (or benchrest) I see a lot of benefits to CRF, it just WORKS.


Ndumo
(.300 member)
16/01/04 02:25 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

I agree that a controlled round feed action is superior in a caliber suitable for dangerous game. I already own a 9.3x64 built on an old DWM Mauser 98 action, and would not trade it for a buffalo bull. If you want, I can e-mail you more details on my loads and rifle.

Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
16/01/04 04:57 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

we have a mauser 98 in 30-06 (grandpa built it), and I'm (trying to) pick up another in 35-whelen. while I have thought of getting a second 30-06, I want the pullet weights of the 35, and the rifles are so similar its quite frightening... they will be virtually interchangeable at the shoulder...

DUGABOY1
(.400 member)
16/01/04 05:08 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

In reply to:

To control round feed or not to control round feed that is the question…

I am still looking into to building a 9.3x64 (unless someone can suggest a better caliber), and I see that some writers like the Control round feed and other like Woods, and Taylor love it but American writers, like Boudintion (Sp) seem to support the “advantages” of push feed? Does “accuracy” out way total control of the shell from the mag. to the chamber? What advice can you give?






Hauptjager, since you are going to build the rifle,instead of already haveing it, I see no advantage to building it in a push feed action. There is "NO" advantage to a push feed action over a CRF, for any purpose! They will do, for hunting things like deer, or paper punching, if you don't have anything else.

The 9.3X64 is legal for dangerous game in most African countries, at least for the cats, and the big five in some others! I would pick up one of the good Mauser actions, either a military one in good shape, or one of the comercial clones, Barrel it with a medium weight barrel, fit Iron sights, and quick detach rings and bases for a low (1.5-5 power scope) mounting of the scope. top it off with a classic shaped stock, and you have a real rifle. With proper bullets, and loads, it will take on just about anything you want to hunt with it!

The reason Boddington likes pushfeed actions is he is left handed, and for many years the only left handed rifles he could find were push feed, so he had little choice.


Hauptjäger
(.275 member)
16/01/04 03:12 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

I would be forever grateful for any and all info you would give. I have been told that there is an issue about the bolt face having to be modified for a 9.3x64 to work. Is this true or just bull… to sell me something other than an action that I can build on? Also do you load all of your own ammo or can you find RWS where you are?

Hauptjäger
(.275 member)
16/01/04 03:29 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

DUGABOY1
Man that is just about the best “how to” I have found yet. Thanks! Since I’m picking you brain, any recommendation on action builders. (CZ Win…) What length of barrel would give optimal performance? I’m a big guy 6’3” but I personally prefer to shut a short “quick” rifle. My 7mm-08 has only a 17.5 inch barrel and its dead ringer out to about 150 yards. Would 20 to 22 inches be about right? And lastly I am a big fan of the thumb hole stock, is this a no no in BG Riffles? To date I have had not problems with the one I have. Your thoughts please.


Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
17/01/04 04:57 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

nothing beats an original mauser, and some were actually chambered in 9.3x?? in the first place. after that, the Model 70 is likely the best immitation. the CZ is cheaper, but I've heard/seen some issues with them, the Ruger is generally a cheaper Winchester, so skip it.

I would give yourself at least a 22" barrel, probably 24... in a rifle of that caliber, I would skip the thumb-hole, but mostly just on preference.

the barrel length COULD be addressed by using very fast-burning powders, but even at that, you would have pressure issues and likely some iffy pressure spikes. whatever you do, keep us updated!


DUGABOY1
(.400 member)
17/01/04 06:55 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

In reply to:

DUGABOY1
Man that is just about the best “how to” I have found yet. Thanks! Since I’m picking you brain, any recommendation on action builders. (CZ Win…) What length of barrel would give optimal performance? I’m a big guy 6’3” but I personally prefer to shut a short “quick” rifle. My 7mm-08 has only a 17.5 inch barrel and its dead ringer out to about 150 yards. Would 20 to 22 inches be about right? And lastly I am a big fan of the thumb hole stock, is this a no no in BG Riffles? To date I have had not problems with the one I have. Your thoughts please.




First, the choice of a thumb hole stock is a personal one, and not to my likeing on a DGR, but as I say that's a personal thing. I have a Harry Lawson T/H stocked 243 win that I like very much, and I have seen several large bore rifles in the field with those stocks as well, so what ever floats your bass boat!

I think you can get along with a 22" barrel, but I would go 24". I certainly wouldn't go less that 22".

Your question in the other post about bolt mods, is correct, but is not a big job. The standard Mauser is made for the 30-06 rim size, as that is the size of the 8x57 MM,(.473"), but the 9.3X64 has a rim diameter of .492", .019" larger. However the Magnum bolt face is too large, at .532" the mod on the standard bolt face is a "no brainer" for a gunsmith. The biggist problem you will incounter is, the fact that the 9.3x64 is a rebated rim cartridge,meaning the head is larger(.504) than the rim, and the feeding will have to be tweeked a bit, so it will feed properly.

All in all, the project is not without some work, but worth the effort, IMO, if done properly,but that is also a personal opinion!


ThomasEdwards
(.300 member)
19/01/04 01:04 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

...www.african-hunter.com has some great articles on the advantages of a crf action compared to a push-feed action in terms of hunting dg...

...many of the newer crf actions will also permit a cartridge to be chambered top-side from the receiver in an emergency situation...


Hauptjäger
(.275 member)
19/01/04 03:00 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

great artical! thanks


luv2safari
(.400 member)
21/01/04 01:35 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

dasMafia,

The Ruger doesn't take any back seat to the newer Winchesters! The new WinJAMMERS, I should say. I tried two of the Safari Classics, one in 375, and one in 416Rem. My safari partner bought one in 416 at the same time I bought mine. ALL three guns jammed almost every time we tried to chamber a round from a full magazine. My 375 was sent back to Worstchester for f.ctory (you supply the "u") repair and came back as bad as when sent.
I like and own four of the old 70", but wouldn't have a new "classic" 70 if one were given to me!
I have a Ruger in 338 and in 416Rigby (RSM) and like them both. I did change that abomonitation that they call a "trigger" to a timney, however.



Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
22/01/04 07:13 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

the Rugers I've used were in smaller calibers and were not nearly as smooth to feed as the Model 70... now, that being said, they did work just fine.

the Rugers don't have a fixed ejector, it actually comes forward slightly as the bolt is worked back, which is one too many moving parts for me, and can (allegedly and theoreticaly) cause ejection problems.

the easy solution is a Mauser... we're getting VERY VERY comfortable with that course of action around here!


luv2safari
(.400 member)
24/01/04 02:14 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

Those sloppy bolt Mausers are hard to beat. The only objection I have at all to them is they are hard to pay for in a good one. .all that machining makes them a bit pricey. When you design something right the first time, 100+ years of tinkering doesn't change it much!

atkinson6
(.375 member)
28/01/04 02:34 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

I will not own a pushfeed rifle, but to each his own...does not bother me one bit what someone else uses...



buckeyeshooter
(.275 member)
18/02/04 05:24 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

I keep hearing the great bias for controlled round feed. Frankly, I can not see the advantage to it unless you are reloading when knocked to the ground or rolling or some other weird position you should not be in. I have rifles in both controlled feed and push feed and have never had a problem with either of them, as far a feeding goes. Then again, I load my own ammo and check for feed and function before heading out in the blue. For me, the position of the saftey and ability to get the gun ready to fire is of much more importance. Meaning-- I would rather have my push feed Ruger .458 with tang safety in a DG situation than my Winchester .470 Capstick or My Remington 700 in .375 H + H. The controlled feeding of the Winchester might be better if I get nailed, but I believe the ability to quickly and accurately place my first shot with the rifle that works best for me is of much greater usefullness. I find the saftey on the new Rugers, Model 70 and Remingtom 700's difficult to use quickly as second nature.

Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
18/02/04 05:39 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

the point of CRF is not just in "upside-down" feeding, but also in the fact that the bolt will feed in one round and just one round, and only feeds the round that is grasped... in a push feed (I've done this with a 700) an imperfect of truncated stroke can lead to a double-feed (bad news), and the general notion of the size of a M700 extractor is just bad comedy... if that round is over-hot or just doesn't go off as intended, the last thing I want is a flimsy pot-metal extractor the size of a paper-clip trying to remove the problem round...

... I'm with Ray, I had a push-feed remington jam up on me deer hunting... that was the last straw. was it user error? sure, but that error can't happen with a Mauser.


Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
18/02/04 05:44 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

oh, and as for cost on a Mauser...

1918 Oberndorf Mauser 98
sporter stock
35 Whelen
iron sights
50 rounds ammo (premium reloads)
25 empties

$500 shipped. not too shabby.

add $60 safety
add $50 rings
add $251 scope
=quite possibly the perfect plainsgame rifle.


buckeyeshooter
(.275 member)
23/02/04 09:55 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

Thanks for your input. However, I have never seen a failure to feed from a rifle push feed or controlled feed. I understand floks say it happens, but I have never witnessed it in 40+ years of hunting and shooting. In my experience-- this is one of those things folks argue about around the fire. I won't lose any sleep or degrade anyone for a push feed rifle. It's much more important that they place the first shot well with a sufficient round in my opinion.

ChuckWagon
(.275 member)
23/02/04 10:54 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

I could certainly not agree with that view. I have had push feed failure. This in my case occured when the guide would not allow a round to be chambered in advance only when ready to shoot. This practice is common in many places now. I can not blame them when I see so many hunters going out that act like they know it all and have never shot any thing but paper. I find it very easy to miss feed when I am trying to watch a animal and chamber a round in a push feed.

**DONOTDELETE**
()
23/02/04 04:23 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

the point of CRF is not just in "upside-down" feeding

When it comes to "upside down feeding" the Weatherby rifle in the 378 based calibres will leave any CRF action for dead....at least any CRF that uses staggered feed.

Rem 700s etc will feed upside down but like the CRF staggered feed they can never match an in line feed rifle...if all else is equal.

Remington's African Big Game Rifle with the in line feed would beat any staggered feed for reliability.

Mike


atkinson6
(.375 member)
23/02/04 04:50 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

Buckeye shooter,
In 40 years of hunting and shooting you should have seen plenty of push feeds fail, maybe you spent too much time discussing it around the campfire when you should have been hunting!! ...

I see it every year in Africa...It mostly happens when hunter are running and try to feed a cartridge into the chamber for the most part...

I would not hunt dangerous game with a pushfeed....


Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
24/02/04 03:45 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

buckeye, you've been hunting longer than I've been alive... and I've had push-feed failure.

and mike... just how much magazine capacity do you sacrifice with the inline feed???

...and the rest of the weatherby problems are too much to deal with anyway. makes it a moot issue to me.


**DONOTDELETE**
()
24/02/04 01:12 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

dasMafia

The Remington ABG holds 3 and you can get a Wby now with an option that allows for 3 of the 378 based calibres.

Mike



Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
24/02/04 01:21 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

do they still fire indescriminately when you take them off safe???

I just don't have that worry with my mausers... and when I say "mausers" I MEAN "Mausers" not M70s, M77s, 550s... we're talking oberndorf here...

as I said... if a rem 700 can jam-up on a hard-stroked 25-06, I don't want to be near it in a big-bore.


**DONOTDELETE**
()
24/02/04 01:27 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

I have not encountered that problem with a Wby. However, given that the striker is pulled back when the safety is put on then it could occur if engagement between trigger and sear was not as it should be.

Mike


Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
24/02/04 01:34 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

apparently, it is "common" in rifles that are bounced around in the back of a truck for some time before the safety is released... I have read reports of 5-6 PHs that cited that exact issue with weatherbys... and have never seen a PH that was fond of weatherbys... they make some serious cartridges, but I have to take issue with them as a viable rifle for most hunters... it takes an effort for me not to flinch behind my 375H&H... I can't imagine what a 460wby feels like!!!

this is, of course, all supposition, but that feature alone on the wbys is enough to keep me away... its just not to my liking... although you are quite right with the in-line feeding... unfortunately it is a world of compromises that we live in... and to me, unplanned discharges, or the chance thereof, get you an e-ticket ride to the "hell no" dumpster.


**DONOTDELETE**
()
24/02/04 02:34 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

If the safety was on and the rifle was in a truck and collecting dust then of course a situation might arise that as the safety is let off then the sear and trigger do not align properly and then BANG. However, I think the likely cause of the problem is that the Wby Mark V is extremely easy to adjust for sear engagement. In addition, before all factory rifles were fitted with trigger return springs that would do justice to the front end of a Mack truck, the Wby was also very easy to adjust to a very light trigger return spring tension. In short, greatly reduce the sear engagement and also have a very light trigger return spring and then some dust collect.....then the sear might not engage as the safety is lett off. A Wby can be ajusted for both spring tension and sear enagement without taking the rifle apart.

Having said that, if the Wby is set for lots of sear engagement and heavy trigger return spring tension then I can't see any reason why the rifle would fire when the safety is let off.

Perhaps the real problem is that the Wby Mark V offers too much choice to the shooter in terms of trigger adjustment

Mike



Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
24/02/04 03:06 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

I think you're missing the point...

most of the rifles cited spent 30-90 minutes being bounced around while in transit to the hunting locale of the day... when the client released the safety in preparation of the shot... BOOM!

we not talking a few months worth of dust here... just a few miles.

still, I have been told that it can be fixed with some reasonable degree of certainty, but the adjustments would seem (to me) to make the problem worse.

and seriously, who needs a bolt-gun that's that expensive... you're talking $2000+ for most of those guns IIRC... thats a LOT of custom mauser IMO...


**DONOTDELETE**
()
24/02/04 03:15 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

I think you're missing the point...

most of the rifles cited spent 30-90 minutes being bounced around while in transit to the hunting locale of the day... when the client released the safety in preparation of the shot... BOOM!

we not talking a few months worth of dust here... just a few miles.


No, I assumed that was what you were talking about and I gave what I think are the reasons why it happened or why it happens.

still, I have been told that it can be fixed with some reasonable degree of certainty, but the adjustments would seem (to me) to make the problem worse.

The adjustmesnt are simple, an allen key down through the top of the action for sear enagement and one up through the trigger guard for weight of pull. Actually any of the more recent Wbys come with a very heavy trigger return spring which is alo quite long so that even if you screw the trigger pull weight screw right out of the action you are still left with a heavy trigger return spring tension because the spring is till compressed where it is held captive.

and seriously, who needs a bolt-gun that's that expensive... you're talking $2000+ for most of those guns IIRC... thats a LOT of custom mauser IMO...

Well that is quite a separate issue.

Mike


mickey
(.416 member)
24/02/04 03:16 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

The autofire of the Weatherbys was a German problem. They used a spring that didn't have enough tension to hold the sear back. Over time it would stretch so that if the trigger was pulled on safe the rifle would indeed fire when the safety was release.

I don't think it was ever a problem of being bounced around but more of a problem of people screwing around.

I have a 20 year old 340 that has been around the world and through the bush as much or more than most with never a problem. Unless you count the magazine falling open and dumping the cartridges on the ground a couple of times. A stiffer spring fixed that also. A stiffer spring fixes most problems, haven't you noticed?


Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
24/02/04 03:23 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

chill mike... I interpreted your "collecting dust" as an indication of long periods of time... that corrected, I'm cool with the discussion.

and yes... it is another discussion entirely... but this is a discussion forum, is it not????


**DONOTDELETE**
()
24/02/04 03:56 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

Actually, one of the things which I have alsways found interesting about criticisms leveled as the Wby is that most don't pick up on the real "potential" problems with Wby actions.

Here are a few of them.

1) The 54 degree bolt lift caused my the 3 rows of lugs results in primary extraction and cam forward that is only about half of a Mauser or M70 two lug action.

2) The very deep recoil lug combined with the screw going inot the recoil lug makes life a lot more difficult with a pillar being used in that part of the stock

3) Because a Wby Mark V uses a Rem 700 receiver dimension the very large diamter bolt means that the depth of the tang threads are very shallow as are the threads for the rear scope mounts. If a Wby is bedded and the tang allowed to rise a bit then the original screw will be perhaps on a turn and half engaged. I would think the large 8 X 40 scope base screws might be a problem with the thin metal forming the top of the rear receiver ring.

4) Because the recoil lug is right at the front of the action and the front screw is into the recoil lug then they are not as suitable for full barrel floating as is the case for M70 and Rem 700.

Having said all of that they do work.

For my own personal view my history is that I have been happiest when I have had Wbys. But this is more of a personality thing between myslef and the rifle. For some reasons Wbys don't seem to lead me down the rebarrel with match barrel and then the never ending chase for accurayc at the rifle range. Also (at least for me) and especially in the 378 based calibres they seem to remove everything from the main stream. By that I mean that I do not end up comparing them to something else on the basis of "should have this action or whatever"

You see this in action with the 416 bore size. The 416 Rem, 416 Rigby and 416 Taylor are the subject of endless discussions and the associated brain pain while the 416 Wby just sits out there on its own.

Same deal with 30 calibres. While brain pain erupts with the pros and cons of WSMs, Rem Ultras, belted Vs Rimless etc. and etc. the 30/378 just sits to one side all on its own

Mike





Holmes
(.300 member)
24/02/04 05:08 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

While I'm primarily a SS guy, I do love the old Winchester 70s. CRF is for me a nice addition but not a requirement. I've shot many a 700 without any troubles whatsoever.

And before ya hammer me about having never hunted dangerous game, bear in mind that I took the extended vacation plan with Uncle Sam in '71. Afterward, I spent quite a few years in law enforcement and then chased court bond jumpers. I have indeed hunted dangerous game with non-CRF rifles - specifically the M700, generally modified for tac use and long range problem solving.

One drawback to this sort of DG hunting is that one is discouraged from mounting his trophies upon the wall...

When a hunter is faced with a charge and he goes into 'panic' mode, does it really matter if the charging prey is a wounded buff, a short feller with a clacker, or a whacked out ex puttin' a snubbie to his ol' ladies throat?

An operator is an operator and if his skills and mental conditioning are not up to par, then somebody gets hurt. CRF or not.

Regards.


4seventy
(Sponsor)
24/02/04 07:09 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

It's been my experience that dust can cause problems with most bolt actions including the true 98's.
Last year a client had trouble with an Obendorf 10.75 X 68 where it gave problems with ejection due to dust. (Cape York)
I've also seen a Sako push feed rifle where it was almost impossible to move the bolt in the receiver due to minimum clearance and a bit of dust. (Far West Queensland)

I'm all for controlled round feed actions for DG but, both CRF and non-CRF actions are capable of stuffing the feed up if something is not set up right.
If I had to go after something big, nasty, and wounded, I'd want the rifle that feeds extracts and ejects perfectly regardless of weather it was crf or not!
Actually I'd rather have a true controlled feed which is of course a double rifle!


ChuckWagon
(.275 member)
24/02/04 11:54 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

Do you suppose the hunter with the dust stuffed bolt spent a lot of time at the range before he showed up to hunt ?

thefinegunmaker
(.224 member)
25/02/04 08:06 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

This is a great topic for discussion. It looks liks some are getting blisters on their fingers from shouting through their keyboards. Here's my 2cents............


The clearance in a Mauser action is designed that way. It is not usually a manufacturing defect. Remember these actions were designed to kill the enemy in every possible situation without failing to function. 100 years ago the Mauser 98bolt gun was the state of the art assult weapon that was purchased or copied by almost every military in the world. They didn't purchase them to target shoot, they bought them because they were the most reliable killing machines available anywhere for any price.

We now are blessed with millions of Mausers all over the world available at a reasonable prices to build some of the best, most reliable and safest hunting rifles money can buy. There isn't another bolt action that can hold a candle to these "sloppy" Mausers when you compare safety, and function. Ask any professional hunter in Africa who doesn't carry a double rifle.

If you are looking to build an accurate hunting rifle then your choice of actions has less influence on the average group size than the quality of barrel from chamber to throat to rifling to crown and quality of bedding. This is asuming you have quality ammo. The extended lock time of the Mausers is designed to insure firing and has no ill effects on accuracy unless you have a bad flinch. All BS aside a properly bedded and barreled hunting rifle should be capable of 3 shot groups near .500" at 100 yards regardless of what action you use. Some of my personal hunting rifles include a 30-338 and 25-06 both built on Mauser 98 with match grade Shilen barrels. One is bedded in Bisonite and one bedded in Devcon Steel Epoxy. They both shoot in the .500" class and are generously free floated.

When I was a student at Trinidad, the bench metal teacher had spent a number of years in Keyna as a gunsmith. His experience with Weatherbys was common. They lined the shelves in most of the gunshops. The reason for this was when a hunter brought his shiny new Weatherby to Africa, quite often the excessive heat would cause the pressures to exceed the already excessive factory pressure and many bad things would happen.

Case would stick:

1)Whimpy little extractor would rip off a little chunk of brass leaving a second shot impossible.

2)Bolt handle would be broken off with the rock the hunter used to open his bolt leaving the hunter with a rock as his primary weapon.

3)Blown primer would cause spring loaded ejector to stick failing to allow a quick often necessary follow up shot if #1 & #2 above didn't happen.

Aside from stuck cases, Weatherbys had numerous trigger problems many of them with broken parts. My teacher said he never hear of an origional Mauser trigger failing to function.

If a hunter had a depressing time with his Weatherby he would usually give it to his PH as a tip. This is why the gunshops were filled with Weatherbys.

If I am blessed with the chance to hunt DG in Africa I hope I will have a Double Rifle that I'm very familiar with. If I'm "limited" using this term very loosely, to a bolt gun then it will be of a Mauser 98 design that I will bet my life on.

Although I have never hunted across the pond, I have had failures to feed while coyote hunting using a Rem 700. Most of these would not have happened in a calm shooting session at the range. I think hunting DG would not be comparable to a calm session at the range either.

Just my opinion

gunmaker
http://users.elknet.net/chico


**DONOTDELETE**
()
25/02/04 09:19 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

Gunmaker,

From your posting:

2)Bolt handle would be broken off with the rock the hunter used to open his bolt leaving the hunter with a rock as his primary weapon.

That is something which would be interesting to see happen because the Weatherby has an integral bolt handle.

But let's assume for a moment that it was true.

Well from the rest of your post I gather that the extractor on a Wby won't pull out much since it will just pull straight through the rim of the case so we know from that fact there was no big resistance to opening the bolt being caused by the extractor's tenacious grip on the case. So therefore this was a huge overload. I mean a HUGE overload since the integral bolt handles are breaking off.

Since there was no mention of any damage to shooter or rifle (except for the broken bolt handle), then the Weatherby rifle must be extremely safe in the case of a huge overload.

Mike




Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
25/02/04 11:07 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

thanks gunmaker... I always loved the busted-off bolt-handles... soooo funny.

thefinegunmaker
(.224 member)
25/02/04 12:24 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

Mike375
I checked the Weatherby web site and yes you are right it says one piece forged bolt. Maybe my memory of which manufacturer I was told had problems with rocks and bolt handles was wrong. Maybe Weatherby changed it's manufacutring process due to problems with the bolt handle. Honestly I'm not sure. I do remember being told by someone who smithed there for years that a barely used Weatherby was the most common tip given because of constant problems, and the most common used for sale.

I know I can't change your mind. I'm sure many hunters never had any problems with their Weatherby.

Arguably though, Holland&Holland, Purdy, and Westley Richards are three of the best gunmakers in the world. What bolt action do they use? None have chosen, to my knowledge, to use a push feed design in safari rifles they sell. I could be mistaken....

gunmaker


**DONOTDELETE**
()
25/02/04 01:57 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

gunmaker,

Weatherby has had a one piece bolt since day one and "day one" was in the 1950s. As a "gunmaker" I am suprised that you did not know this, given that Wby is one of the main players and you are "gunmaker"

In a pevious posting on this thread I outlined many faults of the Weatherby action and also commented that the very large majority of Weatherby critics never raise these points. That to me suggests the criticisms of Wby actions are not made by users of the action.

You also said:

I know I can't change your mind. I'm sure many hunters never had any problems with their Weatherby.

Again, I have posted on this thread the reasons that the Weatherby might fire as the safety is let off. What you can't convince me of is that an overload that was so big that integral bolt handle was broken off AND no mention of what happened to the rifle and shooter. Basically, you posted up bullshit.

You are "gunmaker" so what sort of overload do you think we have when an integral bolt handle is broken off in the attempt to open the action.

In short, if you are going to criticise Weatherby actions then aim your criticism where it should be aimed and GET your facts right.

Arguably though, Holland&Holland, Purdy, and Westley Richards are three of the best gunmakers in the world. What bolt action do they use? None have chosen, to my knowledge, to use a push feed design in safari rifles they sell. I could be mistaken....

If I was having custom rifles made in calibres like 300H&H, 375 H&H, 404, 505 etc I would use the Mauser or M70 action.

If you read one of my prevous postings on this thread I have outlined why I like Weatherby...and there is no conflict with Mauser/M70 etc.

BUT, do get your facts right.

By the way, how do think the shooter of a Mauser 98 would have gone with an overload that was so big that the integral bolt handle was broken off???? and especially if it was in a big diameter case head calibre. WOW, BIG POWER

Mike








thefinegunmaker
(.224 member)
25/02/04 04:21 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

Mike

The only Weatherby I've worked on had a Mauser action and I rebarreled it for a friend.

I'm not trying to fan the flames here. I was just trying to volunteer some info to the origional subject line of this thread. Obviously I favor the controlled round feed and the Mauser 98. The cartridge 9.3X64 seems like a great fit for the standard Mauser and actions are readily available for anyone to BUILD a rifle of this caliber.

I do not consider myself a gunsmith as my professional gun work has been building rifles from scratch. I haven't repaired "smithed" very many guns. I chose to work for manufacturers and build "make" rifles from scratch. That's why I use gunmaker. There are many much more qualified gunsmiths out there to diagnose and repair than I.

The Weatherby notes I posted as you can read in my posts is info relayed to me by someone else who has fixed almost everything. Not my personal experience. I apologise if I misled anyone here.

As for blowing up actions, I have done that. At school a student that hated Mausers bought a chinese copy of a 98 and using a german bolt laughingly told me, "I'll show how weak these shi&&y Mausers really are." We proceeded to try and destroy it. After firing it with a case full of red dot and having very little ill effect, it was rechambered for a 338win in a 7.65 barrel drilled for the pilot of the reamer. The case was again filled with red dot and nothing came apart. The bolt did set back a little requiring the barrel to be set back into headspace. We finally had to fill the barrel with lead and using a 338mag case full of red dot got a small piece to blow off the receiver ring. The thin part in front of the ejection port. The receiver threads remained intact and the bolt did not come out. The other student ate his crow and proceeded to build many fine Mausers in the rest of his time at school.

I'm not saying your Wbys are weak, just sharing my personal experience with blowing up a Mauser 98. I feel very safe behind one when I pull the trigger.

Speaking about the gunwriters, some have probably been fed a steady stream of free guns. Mausers done well are much more expensive than a push feed. Most were probably Remingtons.

gunmaker


ThomasEdwards
(.300 member)
25/02/04 04:31 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

...appreciate your thoughts on the history behind the mauser 98...would you say the dakota 76s are just as good/better?...any other modern commercial action come close?...

**DONOTDELETE**
()
25/02/04 06:03 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

Gunmaker,

From your posting:

The Weatherby notes I posted as you can read in my posts is info relayed to me by someone else who has fixed almost everything. Not my personal experience. I apologise if I misled anyone here.

You endorsed the notes by using the notes to support your case. If as "gunmaker" you knew what you were about you would know that breaking off the Weatherby bolt handle is all pure bullshit and you would not have used the notes.

Again, what chamber pressure would be required so as the integral Weatherby bolt handle had to be broken off to open the bolt???

I would bet you if the Weatherby bolt was locked up in a vice you could not even come close to breaking the bolt handle off....whether using a rock or a sledge hammer.

Mike



NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
25/02/04 06:30 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

I would consider a push feed in a smaller calibre. Having said that all my serious bolt actions are Mauser controlled feeds.

This comes about as I once owned a Winchester featherweight in .30-06. Its accuracy was crap. But I had two incidents with it. One time the bullet was too far out a little and got pulled out of the case spilling powder through the chamber and action. It took a fair while to clean it so the action would function again. I thought then, what would have happened if I had a nice stag in front of me and it got away.

The second incident was the bolt jammed shut and cocked with a loaded round in the chamber. the bolt was partially open and the safety was also jammed off. I couldn't get it to open by any means and in the end had to drive the rifle 80 kms to a gunsmith. I had the rifle in the boot of the car with a large very thick block of wood and a steel plate behind that in case it went off.

Decided enough was enough and sold it off at a loss.

But I would consider something like a Sauer 202 Takedown in upt o .375 (probably 9.3x64). Because it is a takedown. Over that only CRF.

If it was a 'standard' configuration rifle why would anyone consider anything but a controlled feed bolt M98?



**DONOTDELETE**
()
25/02/04 07:56 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

NitroX,

I like CRF as a rifle to use. You can run cartridges through the magazine without having to close the bolt on them.

You can push the bolt forward and then only need to turn the bolt handle down but if you don't fire you just pull the bolt back. A push feed of course requires you to "chamber" the round and then open and pull the bolt back. Simply pulling the bolt back on the push feed does not always result in the cartridge dropping out of the chamber.

You have lost me here:

One time the bullet was too far out a little and got pulled out of the case spilling powder through the chamber and action. It took a fair while to clean it so the action would function again.

Unless I am reading you wrong the same deal will apply to a CRF but probably worse.

If it was a 'standard' configuration rifle why would anyone consider anything but a controlled feed bolt M98?

Several reasons.

Firstly there will be the "complete package" and in this case the action is one part of that package.

Secondly, with switch barrel accuracy guns you can be setup so as to swap barrels between your own actions and a mates actions. CRF causes a problem because of the extractor slot having to line up in M70s. With M98s the bedding configuration is quite poor and you can't fit Jewell triggers. By the way, don't forget a Jewell is adjustable for weight of pull and sear engagement without taking the rifle apart and depending on which trigger return spring you are using the pull weight brackets run from about 1.5 ounces to 12 or 13 ounces, then from about 9 ounces to near 2 pounds and then from about 1.5 pounds to about 3.5 pounds or so.

Scope mounts are also much easier with the M70/Rem700 size which also incluudes other actions eg. Weatherby.

Now you as an individual might not have any interest in the above but some other shooters do.

As to the M98 not everyone wants an old sloppy piece of shit that has to be done up. Not everyone wants a Mauser 98 like a Mark X with the C ring machined out on the left hand side. It all fucntions but it is "el cheapo".

If you have the Mauser as it was intended to be then it does not encourage "single loading" and that is something which is inconvenient for many shooters.

For many shooters Mausers have demonstrated a tendency to be poor feeders. Much of this can be traced back to the fact that they are conversions but the fact remains that the image of M98s being troublesome feeders exists.

Combined with the last point is the fact that the M98 is seen by many shooters as the "cheap option" to start with.

Mike









thefinegunmaker
(.224 member)
26/02/04 04:49 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

Thomas
I have never blown up a Dakota 76. There was an incident at work when a 416 Dakota round was mixed up in the 416 Rigby loaded rounds. The guy who was out at the range filling in the sights on a new Rigby accidently chambered and pulled the trigger on a 416 Dakota round. Bad things happened. The case ruptured down the side and sent brass and powder flying back in his face. He got a very small chunk of brass stuck in his cheek and was able to pull it out when he got back to the shop. The action and stock were a complete loss. Other than the small piece of brass and a sandblasting of powder(he was wearing shooting glasses) I think there were no other injuries. I don't think it even gave him a flinch.

I have a benchrest Dakota that is similar to a 76 with a solid bottom receiver same bolt shroud and bolt stop. It is chambered in 22-250. While shooting prarie dogs with a friend who drove 1000 miles to see me and he had no rest afterward, my friend accidently dipped into my box of 223 ammo and fed it to a 22-250 chamber. The case didn't rupture but the primer came out and a case full of fine ball powder came back in his face. I'm sure most of it came out of the case mouth and around the little shell and back to slap him in the cheek hard enough to cause a light red speckeling to soon appear. He was wearing shooting glasses. The bullet was lodged about two inches from the chamber and only required a light tap with a cleaning rod to remove it. The sako style extractor slot was filled with powder propping it open as was the 2 oz shilen trigger. I think very little powder actually burned and there was no damage to anything, just packed with "sand". I don't know how the smaller round headspaced enough and centered enough to fire. But it did. The Pete Grisel designed bolt stop on the Dakota action is a great improvment in gas deflection over the origional Winchester design. I'm sure it helped prevent further injury in the 416 case. In the second case I'm sure it helped as well, but there wasn't any hot brass coming back. In both cases the shooters had shooting glasses on and I'm sure this prevented a trip to the hospital. These two friends don't normally wear glasses, I do. Whenever they shoot they do.

The only other destroyed action I saw at Dakota was the result of a leopard attack and the Dakota was shot through the side of the loaded magazine while the guy was holding it while getting mauled by the cat. The rifle was returned to Dakota Arms covered with blood and big cat scratches. Gives me the willys again just picturing that rifle.

I have no problem with the integrity of the Dakota and still own some. I think everyone should have one next to their Mausers in their gunsafe. The Mauser 98 was invented when there were serious ammunition quality issues. It was designed to keep the solider out of the hospital when plugged barrels and bad ammunition would make bad things happen. The book "The Commercial MAUSER '98 Sporting Rifle" by Lester Womack goes into great detail about the built in safety features in the 98. Lots of great pics of commercial Mausers too!

Because of it's availability and entry price the Mauser has been hacked into a "sporting rifle" by too many morons. Just check out a local gun show. You'll see more bad work on mausers than quality work. This has given them a bad name. Done correctly the Mauser is world class. I've never broken an extractor and all mine single feed very easily.

gunmaker
http://users.elknet.net/chico


ThomasEdwards
(.300 member)
26/02/04 05:26 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

finegunmaker,

...really appreciate the 'insiders' perspective on the dakotas, truly one of the great icons in the gunmaking world...

...one mystery that remains is the dakota-beretta collaborative effort in launching the mato turnbolt...any insight as to why a round-bodied 97 action was selected as opposed to the flat-bottomed 76 action?...costs?...rem 700-type accuracy?...scalability?...did don actually design the 97 action or ugo gussalli?...

...just a few more questions, if you don't mind...why walther lothar barrels as opposed to dakota barrels?...are the lothar's special dakota-spec'ed barrels?...

...thanks for the great insight...


Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
26/02/04 09:34 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

In reply to:

As to the M98 not everyone wants an old sloppy piece of shit that has to be done up




Them's fightin' words!!!!

our 30-06 mauser is a home-spum sub-MOA gun my grandfather built 50 years ago... I can assure you that there is nothing "done-up" about it... and it is surely an excellent piece in all respects. it is easily 10-15 times the gun that my M700 25-06 is.

you say yourself that you would use a mauser or M70 for any of several cartridges in a repeater-format... yet they are all pieces of shit that require a bunch of work to make right???? I just don't get it man...


Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
27/02/04 03:08 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

wow... I was up early today... if I'm still alive in 3 hours, consider it an act of god.

[/thread-jack]


thefinegunmaker
(.224 member)
27/02/04 08:05 AM
Re: ThomasEdwards

Thomas
In response to your questions

...any insight as to why a round-bodied 97 action was selected as opposed to the flat-bottomed 76 action?...costs?...rem 700-type accuracy?...scalability?

The reason the round receiver was chosen was to keep the costs down. In building a round receiver the raw materials are purchased very close to the final OD of the receiver. The outside of the receiver is turned a little oversize in one operation on the lathe and then finished in another operation on an OD grinding machine. These two operations are very simple and quick to do in production. In building the Winchester style receiver the raw materials are purchased rectangular and it takes many different operations to finish the outside of the receiver along with quite a bit of hand polishing. Even with South Dakota being one of the lowest paying states, there is a lot of labor that goes into just the outside of the receiver on a Win style, along with a much much larger pile of chips generated while machining them. The inside of the receivers on round and rectangular require roughly the same treatment therefore costs inside should be very similar. The big firearms manufacurers like Winchester start with forgings and require much less metal to be removed making them much faster to produce.

..did don actually design the 97 action or ugo gussalli?...

Neither...Honestly the action was designed by Winchester long ago. Pete Grisel refined it and added the novel bolt stop before Dakota arms came into being and I'm not sure if it was under Don's direction, somebody at Dakota put it on a mandrel and turned it round. Beretta didn't want it to look like a Dakota so they told us to make the tang look more like a Rem. We welded up the tang, reglassed the stock pattern and sent it back to them. The prototype went back and forth many times changing the style of floor metal...Beretta just had to have detachable magazines, so Don designed.......cough cough choke gaasssp..let me get a glass of water..........Ahhhh that's better. Ok ok so somebody from Dakota bought a spare detachable magazine for a Remington and held it up next to the round "Winchester" receiver we had. Looked like a pretty good fit. Someone at Remington must have been on the ball. Beretta disliked the Rem style mag release and insisted it look like the Argentine Mauser style. So, we ripped the mag box off rem's floorplate and welded it onto a custom Grisel style floorplate. After much deliberation about the increased costs of this style floor metal, and having us hook the stock grip more like a Biesen stock than I origionally shaped they had the MATO.

...just a few more questions, if you don't mind...why walther lothar barrels as opposed to dakota barrels?...are the lothar's special dakota-spec'ed barrels?...

When I started at Dakota we were using Douglas barrels. They came to us rough turned and contoured. After enough customers complained about ripples in the barrel and gaps in the barrel channels Dakota decided to change vendors. Walther produced a very well polished, fairly ripple free, very consistant outside on their barrels for us to our print. The rifling in a Dakota Walther Barrel was nothing different than what Walther sold elsewhere while I worked there. It was the outside dimensions that make it an "exclusive Dakota barrel" I'll have to say Walther did a fantastic job making barrels that dropped in our barrel channel inlet straight off the CNC stock machine. It really saved time and a ton of glass in the stock shop. Chambering on the stainless ones are much more prone to chattering. It's not the same 400 series steel that American makers use. The inside of the Walther barrels I've looked at with a bore scope look VERY good though.

Everything you have read in the magazines about Dakota Arms might not have been true. In some cases you can't blame the writers, because they are supplied info from someone with their own agenda. Kind of like trusting the liberal media to tell you the truth on the evening news!

gunmaker


atkinson6
(.375 member)
27/02/04 09:41 AM
Re: ThomasEdwards

DasMafia,
Who referred to the Mauser M-98 as sloppy junk? At any rate he is misinformed, ignorant, and should have his sack split and his leg run through it..


Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
27/02/04 09:49 AM
Re: ThomasEdwards

that would have been Mike375....

and yes, I think that its a fitting punishment...

and dang, I love my new sig!!!


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
27/02/04 10:42 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

In reply to:



In reply to:

As to the M98 not everyone wants an old sloppy piece of shit that has to be done up ]





Them's fightin' words!!!!

our 30-06 mauser is a home-spum sub-MOA gun my grandfather built 50 years ago... I can assure you that there is nothing "done-up" about it... and it is surely an excellent piece in all respects. it is easily 10-15 times the gun that my M700 25-06 is.






dasMafia

Mike isn't referring to your grandfather's Mauser which may be a fine rifle, well made and work flawlessly.

What he is referring to is some of the Mausers that are around in the marketplace over the last twenty years. Many of them are sloppy and feel loose compared to a modern tight Remington or whatever. Mauser's tend to feel looser generally than some of the more modern actions in my opinion. Doesn't mean the action is crap though just the feel.

Mike375

yes the powder incident could have happened to any action. However I believe it could have been got back into action quicker with a M98. They were designed as military rifles for dirt, dust, mud and snow with greater tolerances in some areas. Want to challenge that? You can but I won't back it up with engineering comments or whatever, its just my opinion and from my personal experience.

Feeding from Mausers is often a problem and requires additional work.

They also usually need positive action to feed a round well. None of this limp wristed feeding Weathingtons need.



But who would want to be seen hunting with a Weatherby????!!!! Yuck!



**DONOTDELETE**
()
27/02/04 10:57 AM
Re: Control round feed or not?

Nitro,

The powder issue would be at the worst for actions like Rem 700 and Wby Mark V where the back of the barrel is counterbored to take the protruding bolt nose.

In my opinion the best action design is the Model 70 and mainly because of the bedding configuration.

Actually I am very big on matching the rifle to the calibre, at least if the rifle is at a custom or semi custom level. So Mauser = 404, 375 and so on.

The actions I have most commonly owned over the years have been Sako, M70, Rem 700 and Wby. Generally I have always been happiest when the rifles I owned were of the same brand. When I have had a mixture of them at the same time then I continually fall into the trap of comparing them.

Both Mauser and M70 both share in common being actions that were disigned for specific reasons whereas other actions like Rem 700 and Wby Mark V have design features that were marketing driven.

Mike


luv2safari
(.400 member)
27/02/04 12:16 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

I , for the most part, would have a positive feed by choice. But, after using my friend's Sako Safari Grade 375 on a hunt, I had to have one...push feed or not!

I saved my zukes and found one, complete with Novocain for the Vaseline (OUCH!). At first, I thought I had made a mistake, when it didn't seem to feed from a full magazine. Then I remembered that when using my buddy's, I was hunting and working the bolt like a man, not a limp wrist...

I now love the rifle...push feed and all...and will be using it for plains game and bigger N. American critters. I have to admit that I never feel as comfortable with it as I do my Ruger 416, however, when bite N stompers are the quarry.

Next stop is a DR in 500/416...a Searcy...no feed problems there.


Dark_Helmet
(.333 member)
27/02/04 12:56 PM
Re: Control round feed or not?

Nitro...

apologize for my lack of smilies... was laughing my arse off when I typed that...


ThomasEdwards
(.300 member)
27/02/04 04:42 PM
Re: ThomasEdwards

finegunmaker,

...another 'star' for some great insight...you are certainly adding to the lore/mystic of what rightfully should be one of finest stateside gunmakers...imho...and the dakota-beretta tie-up will remain a flash of brilliance that faded much too soon...again imho...



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