| Will |
| (.333 member) |
| 11/08/04 10:24 PM |
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458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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If the info. in the other post is true, that of 2200 fps for a 500 gr. bullet in a 22" barrel, that is great news. I wounder what Norma is using for powder?
Now I wish I hadn't sold my older model 70 with CRF when they had factory 22" barrels. It had the thin barrel and only weighed about 8 pounds.
2200 fps is plenty for anything that walks, and an 8 lb. 458 would be a lot handier than a 9.5 lb. 458 Lott CZ. Maybe I can find a used Mod. 70.
| PP_skåne |
| (.224 member) |
| 12/08/04 09:33 AM |
Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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Hi Will..
It is true,why should i lie about something like this?
I dont no what powder Norma is using,in the homepage off Norma,,((www.norma.cc)) it is not saying what powder they
are using,but i am also curious,but my chronograph and
others is said 2200f/s.
| Will |
| (.333 member) |
| 12/08/04 11:03 AM |
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Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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Skane,
It is not that I do not believe you, it is my skepticism about published information. I didn't really know whether it was Norma information or your personal experience. I also worry about whether I could duplicate the 2200 fps with handloaded ammunition.
We MUST know what powder they are using!!
Where are industrial spies when you need them?
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 12/08/04 04:42 PM |
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Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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In reply to:
2200 fps is plenty for anything that walks, and an 8 lb. 458 would be a lot handier than a 9.5 lb. 458 Lott CZ. Maybe I can find a used Mod. 70.
Will,
In Peterson's Hunting mag back in '95 Finn Aagaard cronographed some factory 458's in a few different rifles including a rebored from .425 to .458 Westley Richards.
The chamber in the WR had been cut to give a very short throat, and barrel length was 23 inches.
With Federal factory ammo using 500 grain bullets the Westley recorded 2188 fps which gives over 5300 foot pounds energy!
| Safarischorsch |
| (.275 member) |
| 12/08/04 11:24 PM |
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Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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It could be the new 203b powder from Norma!
| PP_skåne |
| (.224 member) |
| 13/08/04 08:49 AM |
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Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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Hi,,
The experience is personal,for me, and some other friends
that also have the .458wm..In 2004 this cartidges also whas tested in a very serious hunting magazin.The test barrels are all in "22,,me and many others are also very
curious about what powder they are using in this cartidges.. PP.
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 04/09/04 05:12 AM |
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Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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I don't doubt your velocities Skane, but I do wonder about your pressure in African temps? Lots of folks have gone to Africa with good loads in the 458 that worked fine for them prior to their hunt only to have them misfire or lock up the bolt in Africa, thats how the 458 got its bad reputation, it isn't just idol gossip, it earned that bad reputation...compaction or low velocity had been the choices so far???
I choose not to deal with it as where there is that much smoke, their must be some fire?? I'd punch it out that little bit to a Lott or Ackley or whatever and solve the problem once and for all...
But to each his own..and this is just my opinnion only.
| nopride2 |
| (.300 member) |
| 04/09/04 04:07 PM |
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Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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How about punching it out to Lott or Ackley and keeping the velocity at 2100 FPS. Low pressure, less recoil.
Dave
| AussieMike |
| (.300 member) |
| 07/09/04 09:36 AM |
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Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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I get 2120fps from a 22" barrel with a 500g Hornady soft point using Australian ADI powders in a custom (Tobler) barrelled Mauser 66.
No pressure signs in summer in Oz, even when I leave the rifle lie in the midday sun for over an hour in mid summer. The metal gets too hot to touch and you wouldn't usually leave a rifle in full sun if you were hunting.
ADI powders (many of which are sold under the Hogdon label in the US - see the Hogdon website specs page) are said to be very resistant to temperature effects originally being made for the Australian Defence Forces and this is borne out by my experience - even in prima donna cartridges like the 17 Rem I haven't had any problems whereas I have loads which developed 3950fps in mid winter have primers fall out in mid summer when using US powders.
mike
| Svensson |
| (.224 member) |
| 29/03/05 01:44 AM |
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Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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I have a custom made 458 WM on a Mauser model 98 with 26" barrel. I tried bullets from Winchester and got 2007 fp/S. After that I tried loading data from Accurate Powder and Hogdon.
Bullet: Hornady 500 grains softpoint
Primer: Federal 215
Brass: Winchester
Trim lenght: 2.4920"
44" drop tub used with all loads. Drop tub makes very little difference when you use ballpowder as Accurate 2230, 2460 and 2520.
Compression: -0.0500" indicate that there is 0.0500" left before the bullet tough the powder.
Compression: 0.0500" indicate that the powder is compressed 0.0500".
All loads where fired in a summerday with 25 degree celsius.
THIS IS NOT RELOADING DATA. THIS IS ONLY INFORMATION ABOUT LOADS I HAVE TRIED. IF ANYONE LIKE TO USE THIS, DO IT AT YOUR OWN RISK.
Hogdon Varget
70 grains Hogdon Varget: 2019 fp/s, OAL 3.3180", Compression: 0.0525"
71 grains Hogdon Varget: 2067 fp/s, OAL 3.3180", Compression: 0.0820"
72 grains Hogdon Varget: 2100 fp/s, OAL 3.3180", Compression: 0.0945"
73 grains Hogdon Varget: 2103 fp/s, OAL 3.3190", Compression: 0.1105"
74 grains Hogdon Varget: 2130 fp/s, OAL 3.3125", Compression: 0.1495"
Note: 74 grains Hogdon Varget is recommended maxload from Hogdon reloading manual and gives 48.100 CUP.
Accurate 2230
66 grains Accurate 2230: 2038 fp/s, OAL 3.3110", Compression: -0.1420"
68 grains Accurate 2230: 2126 fp/s, OAL 3.3155", Compression: -0.1110"
70 grains Accurate 2230: 2166 fp/s, OAL 3.3120", Compression: -0.0550"
71 grains Accurate 2230: 2174 fp/s, OAL 3.3125", Compression: -0.0400"
72 grains Accurate 2230: 2162 fp/s, OAL 3.3105", Compression: -0.0165"
73 grains Accurate 2230: 2231 fp/s, OAL 3.3150", Compression: 0.0165"
Note: 72 grains is recommended maxload from Accurate reloading manual and gives 45.600 CUP in their lab. With 73 grains I got a small head expasion and a flat primer. The primer looked flat on all loads, but not as flat as factory load from Winchester wich gave 2007 fp/s with 500 grains FMJ.
Accurate 2460.
68 grains Accurate 2460: 2133 fp/s, OAL 3.3130", Compression: -0.1240"
70 grains Accurate 2460: 2129 fp/s, OAL 3.3160", Compression: -0.0720"
71 grains Accurate 2460: 2126 fp/s, OAL 3.3145", Compression: -0.0355"
72 grains Accurate 2460: 2141 fp/s, OAL 3.3120", Compression: -0.0160"
73 grains Accurate 2460: 2174 fp/s, OAL 3.3130", Compression: 0.0035"
74 grains Accurate 2460: 2189 fp/s, OAL 3.3170", Compression: 0.0255"
75 grains Accurate 2460: 2233 fp/s, OAL 3.3095", Compression: 0.0525"
Note: 74 grains is recommended maxload from Accurate reloading manual and gives 44.800 CUP in their lab. With 75 grains I got a small head expasion and a flat primer. The primer looked flat on all loads, but not as flat as factory load from Winchester wich gave 2007 fp/s with 500 grains FMJ.
Accurate 2520.
70 grains Accurate 2520: 2036 fp/s, OAL 3.2975", Compression: -0.0575"
71 grains Accurate 2520: 2048 fp/s, OAL 3.3110", Compression: -0.0270"
74 grains Accurate 2520: 2122 fp/s, OAL 3.3155", Compression: 0.0255"
75 grains Accurate 2520: 2160 fp/s, OAL 3.3120", Compression: 0.0500"
76 grains Accurate 2520: 2153 fp/s, OAL 3.3175", Compression: 0.0815"
77 grains Accurate 2520: 2189 fp/s, OAL 3.3150", Compression: 0.0980"
78 grains Accurate 2520: 2217 fp/s, OAL 3.3115", Compression: 0.1220"
Note: Accurate donīt have any loading data for this powder, but itīs slower than the other two. None of those loads gave head expansion, and all primer looked better than when I used the other two powders. The load with 78 grains Accurate 2520 showed much less sign of pressure than when I used recommended maxload with the other two powders. I use a Woodleigh bullet and Accurate 2520 powder and get average 2180 fp/s. I have reloaded brass 8 times now, and I canīt se any signs on them to fail yet. I belive that I can use them safe for at least 12 reloads.
The compression of those powders was very soft even when I used maxloads. These powder donīt like high compressed loads, and increase very much in pressure when you compress them. 74 grains of Accurate 2460 and 72 grains of Accurate 2230 is absolutely maxload in my rifle, but they are very safe anyway. 78 grains of Accurate 2520 is maxload too, but with less signs of pressure than the other two.
I also tried some loads with Vihtavouri 540 and 550, but none of those reach 2100 fp/s without very high compression. Vihtavouri show in their reloading manual that you can reach 2116 fp/s out of a 25" barrel with 69,7 grains of Vihtavouri 133, below 53.000 CUP. With Vihtavouri 530 and the same barrel length you can get 2149 fp/s with 73,4 grains. They donīt show the pressure level from each load, but say thay all their loads is below the pressure limit of 53.000 CUP. I have not tried these two powders yet.
When I start with new brass I usually start with 75 grains of Accurate 2520 if I use a 500 grains bullet. I get 2150 to 2170 fp/s average out from that load. When I reload my brass I allways only necksize them 0.70" with a necksizing tool for the caliber 45-90 from Lyman. After that I reload them with the same powder, but this time I use 78 grains, and a compression of 0.0460" with the same bullet. This load gives me less pressure than the first load, and I get 2180 to 2190 fp/s average out from that load.
I really donīt know if the number on powder from Accurate is the same in Europe as in USA.
| grum |
| (Sponsor) |
| 29/03/05 06:22 PM |
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Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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Hi Svensson, appreciate your 458 load data, I am guessing some were compressed, can you identify them. Ta Graham.
| Will |
| (.333 member) |
| 29/03/05 06:39 PM |
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Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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What a coincidence this topic has resurfaced. I just bought the older version Mod. 70 with the 22" barrel (well, I sent the money, so assuming the guy sends the rifle, I have bought one).
Hornady's web site has a 74 gr. load of Varget that supposedly gives 2,152 ft/s for the 500 gr. solid. If that turns out to be true (or approximately so) it will be great, duplicating the old NE loads.
Someone I'm sure more knowledgable knows the Aussie equivalent of Varget powder.
| Marrakai |
| (.416 member) |
| 29/03/05 07:28 PM |
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Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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Varget is re-badged AR2208.
This cartridge does well with AR2206 too.
It has always been easy to achieve 'original' .458 Win Mag ballistics safely and consistently with ADI powders, with no temperature sensitivity, which is why all the .458 Lott hype has always been lost on me.
| Svensson |
| (.224 member) |
| 29/03/05 10:01 PM |
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Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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Yes some loads where slighty compressed, and I gonna to complete my message with those data too. I have also tried Varget powder and I didnīt got more than 2130 fp/s out from Their maxload 74 grains, and that was compressed and showed more signs on pressure than any loads of Accurate 2520.
I donīt think that anyone need more than 2100 fp/s out from a 458 with a 500 grains bullet. My rifle weight is 8 pounds and there is a lot of recoil when I going up to 2200 fp/s. Now I have increase my rifles weight to 9 pounds with lead in the stock, but there is a lot of recoil with those loads anyway.
If I load my 458 Lott I get 200 to 300 fp/s more out at the same pressure as my 458 WM, but I donīt think that the animal gonna to die faster anyway. My goal is to reach 2100 to 2150 fp/s out from my 458 WM with a 500 grains bullet, not to reach highest velocity possible.
| deant |
| (.224 member) |
| 30/03/05 12:47 AM |
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Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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I am not an expert just a nose picker. But 450gr bullets are where the 458winmag comes to life. I loaded my 458wm with barnes ss and x bullets at 450gr. I got almost 2300fps before they looked a bit hot so I backed down to a bit over 2200fps.(loads werent compressed) I have talked to quite a few who get 2300fps with their 458wms. Mine is a bit slow I guess.
I did take both a cape buffalo and an elephant with mine it was very hot and she shot great. If you have to have 500grs IMHO punch it out to 458lott and be safe no doubts. If you want to shoot it as a 458wm try 450gr bullets.
Dean
| Will |
| (.333 member) |
| 30/03/05 01:06 AM |
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Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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Could I ask you to intrepret the rest:
2208 = Varget
2230 = ?
2460 = ?
2520 = ?
2206 = ?
Thanks.
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 30/03/05 05:34 AM |
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Re: 458 Win. Mag. - Revisited
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Will,
I find that very interresting stuff, in fact it is encouraging...Makes me want a 458 Win. for the first time in years...I would like to see the actual pressure data on such loads..Good post.