gryphon
(.450 member)
16/02/11 05:55 AM
Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Apols if prev posted.


III.e. Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

I almost hate to comment on this one because it happens to be a favorite of one of my favorite gun writers, a man of outstanding skill and a reputable hunter whose guidance in such matters should not be taken lightly (and I don't refer to Taylor!). Taylor himself was also a man of unimpeachable experience and his views on rifles and calibers, especially for dangerous game, is taken as gospel on the subject.

However, this formula has got to go.

I'm sympathetic to the motivations which brought about its creation. The "smallbore cranks" were a cult phenomenon at the time, preaching vehemently about high velocity and kinetic energy. A number of this following ventured to Africa, and like their predecessors in the heyday of blackpowder "express" cartridges, experienced miserable failures in the field, sometimes with fatal consequences to the shooter or guides. Taylor was attempting to counter this "scientific" kind of argument with a kind of scientific methodology. Applying his many years of experience to the problem (and it must be confessed, his biases as well), he developed a formula which favored the kind of bullets and cartridges he knew to work reliably:

TKO = Bullet Weight (lbs) x Impact Velocity (fps) x Bullet Diameter (in)

Regrettably, this formula is as misleading as any kinetic energy figures or OGW or any other I've seen. For example, a hand-thrown baseball would have roughly twice the TKO of the standard nitro express load. I doubt if anyone would argue that bouncing a baseball off the noggin of an elephant would produce any positive result. Taylor himself acknowledged that there wasn't any appreciable difference in the killing performance of the various .400s, .416s, .450s, .465s, .470s, .475s, and .500s on dangerous game when loaded with reliable bullets of sound construction. But his TKO formula (as generally interpreted) exaggerates any difference that might exist because it makes the bore diameter equally as important as the velocity; thus a .488 caliber .475 Jeffery No. 2 is seen to be 7% more potent than a .458 caliber .450 NE even though they both have the same ballistics. The comparison becomes even more exaggerated between a .450/.400 NE and a .500 NE in which the larger bore is calculated to be 55 % more potent, even though Taylor regards them as being very similar in killing performance. In fairness to the author, the TKO value is generally misinterpreted (notice that the table he provides only includes loads for solid bullets). Taylor himself said of it:

"I do not pretend that they [TKOs] represent "killing power"; but they do give an excellent basis from which any two rifles may be compared from the point of view of the actual knock-down blow, or punch, inflicted by the bullet on massive, heavy-boned animals such as elephant, rhino and buffalo". (African Rifles and Cartridges, pg. xii)

"There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about this word "shock"; men seem to be under the impression that it implies killing power. But that is erroneous." (African Rifles and Cartridges, pg. 58)

Elaborating, the author indicates that this stunning effect truly applies for the most part to near misses of the brain on elephant, enabling a more leisurely dispatch with a follow-up shot (possibly of lesser caliber) or, especially, permitting the shooting of other nearby elephants, while the first is down. Such tactics are no longer permissible and were never ethical in my view (Taylor was a self-acknowledged poacher). Indeed, whether his TKO is true even in this sense is a highly contentious matter, disputed by some very experienced African hunters (I will not pretend to be highly experienced in this regard, but I have seen a Cape buffalo shot between the eyes, within millimeters of its brain, with a .500 NE which did not produce any effect whatsoever). More recently, Craig Boddington has voiced a similar doubt on the basis of his observations and those of other contemporary hunters and game control officers ("Like a Freight Train", Rifle Shooter, November - December 2009, pgs. 38 - 42). But the point here is that Taylor never offered this formula as an indicator of killing or even "shocking" performance for hits on the body. That is an American gun pundit extrapolation of thought. Taylor includes TKO values for everything down to the .256 Mannlicher, but not with a view to offering the relative merits of one small-bore or medium-bore against another for general hunting use - its to show how puny these are relative to the big-bores for stopping an elephant. Still, Taylor also made the point that even a stopping rifle was ineffective with poor shooting:

"Both barrels from a .600 in the belly will have little more apparent effect on [an elephant] than a single shot from a .275 in the same place." (African Rifles and Cartridges, pg. 59)

American hunters and gun writers use terms like "stopping power", "shock" and "killing power" to describe how quickly a deer (elk, antelope, etc.) falls when hit. Practically no one hunts elephant anymore and I can't remember the last time I saw an article on that subject. Promotion of the TKO is indicative of the careless way in which any quasi-scientific method is seized upon, even though the originator of it may reject that purpose to which it is put (though, again, I am not endorsing or placing validity on Taylor's TKO calculation, even for the purpose he intended).

Incidentally, if there is a "knockout" effect it will almost certainly be a function of bullet shape, presented area and velocity. Bullet mass will not matter greatly, but a separate calculation would be necessary to assess whether sufficient penetration was provided.


Ben
(.400 member)
16/02/11 07:06 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Interesting reading. I really enjoy Taylor's books. I don't have any idea about knocking animals out or knocking them over. All I know is that I feel more secure and more confident with something .400+ in my hands.

bigdog
(.375 member)
17/02/11 05:08 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Easier to figure with bullet weight in grains and divide the whole thing by 7000. Not a perfect formula, but then I'm not sure there is a perfect formula. It does make it easy to compare rifles though.

kamilaroi
(.400 member)
17/02/11 06:38 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

I believe that a formula incorporating mass, terminal velocity and sectional density might yield a fair result.

bonanza
(.400 member)
17/02/11 11:16 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Wound channel is pretty important.

Huvius
(.416 member)
18/02/11 03:19 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

Wound channel is pretty important.




Wound channel and tissue damage is important.
Problem is, there would have to be an inherent deviation in the formula due to bullet shape and construction.

I think Taylor was attempting to come up with a loose formula for "knock down" in the event of a charge/dangerous situation. This is very different than the killing ability of a particular cartridge.

Probably more useful nowdays would be a formula concerning bullet speed, weight and sectional density.
That would help the 9.3X62 croud see that the 318WR and the 333Jeffery are clearly superior


hunter_angler
(.300 member)
18/02/11 03:25 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

I believe that a formula incorporating mass, terminal velocity and sectional density might yield a fair result.




Yep. I would like to see a primarily momentum based formula, somehow also incorporating SD as well as cross-sectional area, at least up to a point. It seems that after bullets get to a certain sheer weight, the latter factors may become less important; i.e. a 500 plus grain bullet of almost any reasonable caliber driven at 2000 or more fps is going to do some damage through living tissue, even on thick-skinned game. Bullet construction is obviously also important but probably impossible to incorporate into the measure. I guess you would have to assume you are comparing, say quality solids or hard-cast leads across cartridges. Expanding bullets add more variables.

I agree that Taylor's formula overemphasizes bullet diameter just as conventional ballistics measures overemphasize energy, but he definitely made a necessary point. If I were facing down a grizzly or buff with a bad attitude, I would rather be shooting a factory loaded pumpkin roller .45-70 405 gr with ME of 1600 ft-lb than a high velocity .220 SWIFT 55 gr with 1800 ft-lb! I also think that stopping power involves a lot more than just penetration. Penetration and a sufficient wound channel kill, but a "stopper" caliber also imparts a great deal of shock to the animal, transferring terminal energy while penetrating. This is why although a hot-loaded .45-70 may penetrate and eventually kill almost as well as a .470 NE, the latter is much better at halting a charging animal in its tracks.


DarylS
(.700 member)
19/02/11 02:15 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Your last sentences regarding the .45/70 - are you referring to a Trapdoor Springfield's loads, Model 86 or 71 Winchester or Marlin loads, or a Ruger #1 or bolt gun's loads? It does make a difference.

The bolt gun and Ruger can make 2,050fps with 500gr. solids.

What are the 'actual' chronographed ballistics of the .470? Granted the larger bullet of the .470 does or should have an effect - with equal bullet integrity, of coruse, but I think we might have a stalemate there on charging game.

I agree that any formula leaves too much out & that none work all the time.

Coming up with them, ie: inventing formulas, and spouting to all who will read, does pay the gun-writer's bills though - the more diverse the formula, the more words required and the greater the sum of the check.


4seventy
(Sponsor)
19/02/11 06:56 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

Your last sentences regarding the .45/70 - are you referring to a Trapdoor Springfield's loads, Model 86 or 71 Winchester or Marlin loads, or a Ruger #1 or bolt gun's loads? It does make a difference.

The bolt gun and Ruger can make 2,050fps with 500gr. solids.

What are the 'actual' chronographed ballistics of the .470? Granted the larger bullet of the .470 does or should have an effect - with equal bullet integrity, of coruse, but I think we might have a stalemate there on charging game.






It would only be a stalemate on paper I reckon. The .470NE with a 500 grainer at 2050fps would be running 40,000psi or less, and with the bullet seated to proper depth in the case neck.
How much pressure is a 45-70 running to achieve 2050fps with a 500 grainer, and how far out is the bullet seated in the case?
For DG, and more so for charging DG, give me the low pressure .470NE anyday.


DarylS
(.700 member)
19/02/11 07:31 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Bullet seating is normal for the rifles mentioned. Pressures under 55,000psi - HPWhite. Preferences are what drives industry.


This thread is about formulas.


Freeloader123
(.275 member)
19/02/11 08:29 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

I don't think it's possible to come up with a formula that has any sort of precision.

Except that too much is just enough.


JabaliHunter
(.400 member)
19/02/11 08:47 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Much of the debate about Taylor's Knock-Out values is that some very experienced hunters publicised experiences that run counter intuitively, such as occasions when the .577 (Irwin) and .600 (Marsh) failing to exhibit the anticipated K-O effect.
One thing to note with Taylor's Knockout values is that he used nominal rather than actual bullet diameter in some cases, which affects the calculation. Gregor Woods put forward an alternative formula in his book Rifles for Africa that builds on Taylor's theory called Relative Damage Potential.
The formula is RDP=(WxVxA)/7,000 where W is the bullet weight in grains, V is muzzle velocity in fps and A is bullet cross sectional are in square inches (square of radius multiplied by Pi). It is an interesting read.
I don't think any theoretical formula can be universal. However, I am comfortable with one, that 500gr and 5,000 ft/lbs is the benchmark for reliable stopping power on elephant, even if most of the very experienced elephant hunters concede the .416 as the exception....


4seventy
(Sponsor)
19/02/11 11:04 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

Bullet seating is normal for the rifles mentioned. Pressures under 55,000psi - HPWhite. Preferences are what drives industry.


This thread is about formulas.




Ok formulas. Here's one.

CLIENT HUNTER + AFRICA + HI AMBIENT TEMPS + DANGEROUS GAME + LABORATORY HOTROD LOADED 45-70, = PH's NIGHTMARE.


Getting back to Taylor's formula, wasn't it based on the effect of missed brain shots on elephant?
If so that would severely limit it's usefullness in relation to other game, including buffalo IMO.
A shot below jumbo's brain, would still have the bullet impacting heavy bone, where a shot impacting a (charging) buffalo skull below the brain, might only encounter the much lighter bones where the nose joins the skull.
There would be a lot of difference between the two I would think.

I have read Taylor over and over since the late 1970's, and I still enjoy reading it today.
I don't worry about his formula much though, because I don't shoot elephant.
Whether it is right or wrong doesn't really come into it for me, because it deals with a type of hunting and shooting which I doubt I'll ever experience.
To really know if his formula works, IMO you would need to miss the brain shot, on a hell of a lot of elephants, with a hell of a lot of different big game cartridges.



Freeloader123
(.275 member)
19/02/11 05:10 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

Quote:

HOTROD LOADED




Speaking of hotrods, what do you euro types hot rod?

The cheap and easy answer over here is the small block chevy. Which I'll build. And I'm a pretty mean hand with a grinder and a set of Sportsman heads. Or eveb S/R Torquers if you don't plan on revving the engine.

But give me a Cleveland Ford any day,


kaizer2007
(.300 member)
19/02/11 06:31 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

ALL OF PLEASURES
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm


kamilaroi
(.400 member)
19/02/11 08:37 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

I believe that another factor MUST be taken into account; that is the ability of the hunter
to shoot regularly to point of aim from a variety of positions, situations and with MINIMAL flinch. jest sayin'


Freeloader123
(.275 member)
20/02/11 03:21 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

4seventy

My bad. You're from the land of Holdens and Ford Falcons and Chrysler hemi sixes.

All good stuff.

In any case I just can't take John Taylor's TKO formula seriously. Kamiloroi I think nailed it; it's the ability of the hunter that counts. Very few of us are Karamojo Bell, but it's where you put the hole that counts most. We have a saying in the states; close only counts with hand grenades and nuclear weapons.

I've shot deer here in the US that showed no visible sign of being hit. I didn't even believe I hit them until I followed them up.

I certainly don't think I can stake my life on some theoretical "knock out" formula. All due respect to John Taylor, who had a lifetime more experience than I'll likely ever get on game. But what experience I do have tells me that I can't count on an animal reacting a certain way.


FATBOY404
(.400 member)
20/02/11 05:07 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

I think everything you say is true but would a high knockout value give some insurrance if it goes wrong?.
Was it not said "you should use a caliber that will work when everything goes wrong,not when it all goes right".

I love my 404j, if and when I get to take an Elephant I will use it even though it rates poorly in TKO table.The biggest question for me will be 450 grain solids or 400 grain Hydro's?.


kaizer2007
(.300 member)
20/02/11 05:08 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

OK friends.
Truth is always somewhere in between...


Rule303
(.416 member)
20/02/11 06:46 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

FB404 go the Hydros.

I tend to agree with most of what has been said however in defences of the bullet diameter part of Taylor's formulae. I think he was very astute to pick this up but needed to modify it to allow for shape of nose(of the bullet) and size of any metplat. Not saying that this would be a fit and proper formulae, don't think there is one.

Going back to another doyen of the shooting and hunting world, Elmer Keith. Keith noted that the larger the metplat of the round the quicker or surer it killed. Keith stated that there was no scientific studies on this, it was just his observations from experiments he carried out with 44 cal projectiles. Apparently he made up several batches with the metplat being .001" bigger than the last batch etc. His quarry, I believe, was Deer. Now it is many years since I read this article by Keith and some aspects of the article I just can not remember.

The best formulae, to me, is the one for felt recoil. Find out how much you can handle confidently and don't go above it. That way you have a far better chance of hitting what you want, where you want, when you want.

Cheers

Greg


Freeloader123
(.275 member)
20/02/11 07:32 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

I tend to agree with most of what has been said however in defences of the bullet diameter part of Taylor's formulae.




I agree Taylor was astute to factor in caliber and bullet weight. I'm not saying it's not important.

But I've shot elephant with more decisive results than impala or deer with the same rifle.

Maybe it's a fact that the bullets people build for a .375 or up are built tougher than you need for a 150 to 500 pound animal. I don't know.

For example, I absolutely staggered a Gemsbock with a shot to the chest. I didn't need to track him.

On the other hand, I took the same shot with the same rifle at about the same range on a Sitka blacktail and didn't even faze it. By all outward appearances.

I needed to track him. He was just as dead, eventually, but I didn't see any immediate evidence of a formula.


DarylS
(.700 member)
21/02/11 04:02 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Different animals react differently.

Deer are amongst the animals that will dash off until they drop from lack of blood to the brain, ie: total shutdown - sometimes it doesn't matter what you shoot them with, they run to the bush before dropping, or run through the bush 100yards before dropping - with no heart or lungs - competely blown up - yet they run. Sometimes, put a .45 or .50 cal round ball through their lungs and they drop on the spot- happens more often with a round ball than any other type - why? FPE - no - shape & subsequent preceeding shock wave - maybe? formula that would work all the time, let along most of the time? - not bloody likely.

I don't think it's quantifiable.(is that proper use of that word?)


500Nitro
(.450 member)
21/02/11 04:39 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula


Daryl,

I've noticed that with Buffalo - same shot, take out the heart, one runs, one doesn't.

I put it down to Kevin Robertson's explanation (The Perfect Shot), that if the heart is full when the the bullet hits,
it send s a spike to the brain, when it's empty, it doesn't.


DarylS
(.700 member)
21/02/11 05:43 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Exactly - what about lung shots above the heart? - inflated full of air vs empty - or stomach full of food vs empty - all having a direct reault on penetration as well - how much liquid, how much food to wade through. Big difference in internal damage due to this phenominum some called hydrostatic shock, vs the speed required 'apparently' to activate it in tissue alone.

I think speed is a relative deal here, depending on the condition of the organs - as noted above - full or empty. A lower speed works on full organs, a much higher speed is required to activate the mere tissues themselves. Much comes down to secondary missiles & the damage they create.

Cup pointed bullets such as the new Woodleigh create much more damage than a smoothly rounded solid, as do ordinary flat noses although the cup point rules thus far. Harold Johnson (Cooper's Landing- Alaska) found that out many years ago on coastal grizzlies, ie: Brown and Kodiak bears. He used the base secton weighing around 450gr. from a .5 Browning steel cored machine gun bullet, cut off. He seated them base-cup out and achieved not only great penetration but excellent cavitation inside the animals - instant kills, etc - from a solid. He was driving them quite slow, too, not over 1,800 or 1,900fps muzzle velocity - .50 Alaskan in a Model 71 or 86 Winchester.

Woodleigh merely used this same idea - or perhaps came upon it themselves - who knows - who cares? They work.

I had read about Harold's work and was cup-pointing soft nosed bullets that were too hard for the job I had for them many years ago and I'm sure other handloaders did the same.

Case in point were the 270gr.RN's for my wife's .375 Winchester Model 94 bought in 97, using cup-pointed bullets in it in 80 and 81 on moose. They worked just fine @ 1,800fps mv - - imagine that.

Getting back to the damage and results on big game - why is it a moose takes a .300 WTBY 180gr. or 200gr. through both lungs and drops dead on the spot - but the next time, exactly the same circumstances, runs 50 yards(the norm if not chased)and lays down to die, hidden in the bush. If chased, he might run 300 yards before feeling safe to lay down & die - takes a while to die in one case, and almost instantaneously in the other, - why?

I've noticed something different though, with the little .375 - the cup pointed 270's or 220gr. FN's through the lungs - 1 to 4 steps - dead - every time - why?

.735" or .684" round balls, same inpact, stagger sideways at impact, then down or down in 2 or 3 struggling, shakey steps - why?

Why does a big bull moose drop dead after only a 40 yard run after being holed by a .535" round ball? Autopsy shows both lungs and heart have only a permanent 1/2" hole through & through. Energy at impact - less than 220 FPE - dead long before the 300 mag. bullet which completely disintegrates heart and lungs - why?

I don't believe in any of the formulas, but diameter is important - it's more important than weight or speed as long as penetraion is suficient, that is - from what I've personally seen - the bigger the better.

Increased penetration is why I made a mould that would cast from 580gr. to 1,200gr. Hemispherical nosed bullets for my .69 Sporting Rifle

When the .69's round balls begin to fail to go through a moose, I might use some slugs - but I doubt that will EVER happen though.


Homer
(.416 member)
21/02/11 09:12 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

G'Day Fella's,

Sorry but I haven't read the above replies, to this question on the TKO formular.

My experience is limited to the South Pacific species but I am of the belief that there are Two types of animals.
One that usually, is susceptible to Hydrostatic Shock from a fast expanding, High Velocity bullet (well over 2500+fps MV) and One that isn't?
The animals that aren't, seem to be more susceptible to a larger (bigger than .30cal), slow moving bullet with a muzzle velocity up to 2500fps?

Then you have the .300 Magnums that just seem to deck every thing that they are pointed at, without regard to any science, physics, TKO etc, etc!!!

These observations, are just that and not what I would call very scientific etc!

Hope this helps with the discussion.

Doh!
Homer


500Nitro
(.450 member)
21/02/11 09:28 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

Exactly - what about lung shots above the heart? - inflated full of air vs empty - or stomach full of food vs empty - all having a direct reault on penetration as well - how much liquid, how much food to wade through. Big difference in internal damage due to this phenominum some called hydrostatic shock, vs the speed required 'apparently' to activate it in tissue alone.

I think speed is a relative deal here, depending on the condition of the organs - as noted above - full or empty. A lower speed works on full organs, a much higher speed is required to activate the mere tissues themselves. Much comes down to secondary missiles & the damage they create.





So many factors come into play. Adrenalin being one of them.

If a buff has seen you, seen you and is alerted, pumped up etc etc.

I am not a fun of lung shots so always try to take out the heart. A hole in a lung can close up, not so easy with a heart - although both can still run.


What about the old Liver shot - that makes them stand in pain. Always a good way of pulling something up but not a shot I take. If you can see the liver, you can see other, better vital organs.


DarylS
(.700 member)
21/02/11 11:01 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

How do the ultra-fast .300's bullets work on Sambar?

The Elk here arn't that impressed, and neither are the moose - at times - other times they drop - quite interesting, actually.

I've watched an Elk calf take a 129gr. Horndy from a 6.5x68- driven at 3,300fps, make a 3" entrance hole just above the elbow, 4" exit other side, lungs, I guess (liquid red splatter) blasted out each side on first second and third shots*(same place), spaced about 15 to 25 second apart. Yeah - over a minute without any lungs after the first shot. During this episode, the elk ran about 60 yards, stopping and milling around each time they ran about 30 yards. Finally, it appeared the Elk Calf realized it was dead, dropped his head and bled out his nose - then collapsed - maybe 1 1/2 minutes after the first shot blew it's lungs and heart to mush. There were no pieces- just mung. I was watching with 15X binocs. Impressive tough that bull elk calf, about the size of a really big Mulie- probably 250 pounds, maybe bit more (December). Now, the thought of the bullet 'shocking' and sort of cauterizing the tissues comes to mind as it took a long time for the blood to exit it's nose- ie; over a minute.

Perhaps this happens with high velocity rounds. Some game animals are susceptable, some aren't.

Much also depends on the animal's alertness to danger - spooked or not or already shot. My bro has finished off about 4 or 5 moose now, which were wounded by clients with arrows or bullets. His 250gr. RN's starting out at 2,150fps from his .356Win. dropped every moose dead inside 20 yards of the shot. That ctg. works well for that purpose, or for the initial shot as long as a client hasn't 'borrowed' it (they always miss - low and right or left).


FATBOY404
(.400 member)
21/02/11 11:08 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

I'm a fan of useing the right bullets and breaking bone on any animal but have not hunted Ele.

4seventy
(Sponsor)
23/02/11 03:47 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

4seventy

My bad. You're from the land of Holdens and Ford Falcons and Chrysler hemi sixes.

All good stuff.






Freeloader, quite a few SBC's in OZ. Late 60's early 70's Holden Monaro's could be had new with SB Chevy power.
Hotrodders here use SB Chevy's a lot also.
I once had a 350 small block with a turbo-400 trans in a Landcruiser trayback.
It was awesome in soft sand beach driving!


4seventy
(Sponsor)
23/02/11 03:48 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

I'm a fan of useing the right bullets and breaking bone on any animal but have not hunted Ele.




Me too!


JabaliHunter
(.400 member)
24/02/11 04:58 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

Speaking of hotrods, what do you euro types hot rod?



anything German or Japanese
Oh wait, that's all we have


hunter_angler
(.300 member)
24/02/11 12:08 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula





Quote:

... quite a few SBC's in OZ. Late 60's early 70's Holden Monaro's could be had new with SB Chevy power.
Hotrodders here use SB Chevy's a lot also.
I once had a 350 small block with a turbo-400 trans in a Landcruiser trayback.
It was awesome in soft sand beach driving!




Please take no offense, mate, but one thing I love about you Aussies is that whether it's about your firearms or your vehicles, you definitely think rowdy like us Yanks!

Now, back on topic. Has anyone here ever seen/used the Thornily Stopping Power formula?

TSP = 2.866*velocity[fps]*(bullet weight[grains]/7000)*SquareRoot(bullet diameter[in])

Not sure where the numerical constants come from, but it seems to be a reasonable yardstick, incorporating momentum as well as bullet diameter, and without emphasizing the latter so much as Mr. Taylor's formula.

You can play with it here:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/thornily.htm


Freeloader123
(.275 member)
01/03/11 06:00 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

4seventy
Freeloader, quite a few SBC's in OZ. Late 60's early 70's Holden Monaro's could be had new with SB Chevy power.
Hotrodders here use SB Chevy's a lot also.
I once had a 350 small block with a turbo-400 trans in a Landcruiser trayback.
It was awesome in soft sand beach driving!




An SBC is not to be despised. It's not my favorite small block, but I happen to be married to one right now. It's in my '71 El Camino (think Holden Ute). I'm not complaining. Once I replace her beating heart with the AFR-headed roller-cammed four-bolt main forged-crank small block taking up space in my garage, I'll be sitting even more firmly in the heart of the land of not-complaining.

But when it comes to small blocks I lust after Cleveland Fords, and you guys down under build the best. Growing up in the late '70s the hot ticket was to get an Aussie Cleveland 351 block, but you had to know someone who built superstock engines to get one. Now, if the rules allow an SBF to be competitive (i.e. you don't need a big block [do you have big blocks down under?]) a Ford outfitted with Aussie CHI cylinder heads invariably wins the Jeg's powermaster competition.

I drove one '71 Boss 351 Mustang once. Only one time, and I've never been the same since. A high school friend I car-pooled with asked me if I "minded" driving as he was worn out after football practice.

Asking me if I "minded" driving that car would be like a Victoria's Secret supermodel asking me if I "minded" having sex with her.

Well, OK. But only this time and you owe me a favor (he he he).

Anyways, back on topic. I probably should have mentioned that the last two animals I discussed in my immediately prior post WERE NOT shot with a .375. I shifted mental gears and should have said they were shot with a .338 WinMag. Which seems to work just about as well as a .375 on everything I've ever shot with one. Which admittedly hasn't been a whole hell of a lot.

Most of the game I shoot doesn't need more than my .270. Which leads me to believe I'm not really qualified to commment on Taylor's Knock Out formula. Perhaps somebody with more experience on really big game can fill me in on this desire to quantify killing power in some sort of formula. Because I don't get it. The subject's been talked to death, and minimum cartridges have been pretty well established. At this point, shouldn't we be talking about what bullets out of those cartridges work as advertised, and which don't?

Not all of them do work.


bigjedd
(.224 member)
01/03/11 06:57 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Darryl S
In my experience with using 300 magnums on Sambar deer downunder. The main problem is hunters get sucked into the high velocity lighter weight bullet syndrome and most times the bullet is too fragile for the speed and impact on sambar sized deer. The hunters I hunt with all use heavier 180grains Plus bullets and slower loads to good effect within 200 yds. The only exception is when the shot is taken at longer ranges 400 plus shots and the terminal velocity has dropped to the mid 2500fps.


450_Ackley
(.375 member)
02/03/11 06:40 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

A little off the topic, but in the Feb edition of African Outfitter mag, there is an article regarding big bore wildcats, with the author very firmly saying that he (and apparently most African PH's??) are now saying that anything big driven at 2400 fps or over is now bad news, slow it down to 2150 fps or so and everything works better.
I'll have to dig it up and have another closer read of it.
Basically he is saying that there was nothing wrong with the ballistics of the old days, and pushing bullets over their recommended speeds was a recipe for disaster.
I do recall however, the article seemed very opinionated!

DC


500Nitro
(.450 member)
02/03/11 06:50 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula


450

"pushing bullets over their recommended speeds was a recipe for disaster."

Correct, and some calibres didn't reach their potential until bullet technology caught up with velocity.

I am NOT a speed freak, but most people do say that once you hit that 2300 - 2400 fps, the animal does notice it.

I am just happy to go 2150 fps and be done with it - my animals fall over dead, I can get a second or third shot of quickly as I'm not trying to recover as far and I'm not beaten to a pulp by recoil.

But you will always have those who want to push things faster.

.


FATBOY404
(.400 member)
02/03/11 06:59 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

I think modern bullets have "clouded" the original 2150 fps argument a little but personally I still like it.

Freeloader123
(.275 member)
02/03/11 07:47 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

A little off the topic, but in the Feb edition of African Outfitter mag, there is an article regarding big bore wildcats, with the author very firmly saying that he (and apparently most African PH's??) are now saying that anything big driven at 2400 fps or over is now bad news,




I'm curious; that is the "old" speed for my .416. 2400 fps is about what Rigby & co. got out of her. Now it's "bad news.?"

Here I was thinking I was on the safe side for sticking with the starter loads. Now all of a sudden I find out I should have downlaoded her and turned her into a .404.


eagle27
(.400 member)
02/03/11 04:31 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

Quote:

A little off the topic, but in the Feb edition of African Outfitter mag, there is an article regarding big bore wildcats, with the author very firmly saying that he (and apparently most African PH's??) are now saying that anything big driven at 2400 fps or over is now bad news,




I'm curious; that is the "old" speed for my .416. 2400 fps is about what Rigby & co. got out of her. Now it's "bad news.?"

Here I was thinking I was on the safe side for sticking with the starter loads. Now all of a sudden I find out I should have downlaoded her and turned her into a .404.





Ah the penny has dropped. That is why all us 404 owners just start with this cartridge and load it normally to give the tried and true DG performance.


Freeloader123
(.275 member)
02/03/11 08:31 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:


I am NOT a speed freak,




I am. I intend to prove it by stuffing the biggest engine I can into the smallest car I can find.

It's important to have goals in life.

But in the cold hard light of day it's imporant to think about how your bullet's going to do when it meets up with something. Not just how fast you can make it go. But when it stops.

As I get older, I think more & more about how I'm going to haul this thing to a stop. You should see the brakes I have on the '71 Elco. Massive. Courtesy of Stainless Steel Brakes.

I wouldn't drive a car fast if I didn't know it had chasssis, suspension, and a set of brakes up to the task, and I wouldn't drive a bullet fast if I didn't think it would hold together and do the job.


DarylS
(.700 member)
03/03/11 03:39 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

We are all asute enough to know the bullet must be up to the job of doing the job we want it to, in anything we poke it, no matter what we launch it from.

High velocity seems to work on some game - mentioned that above, but the heavier and/or more dangerous the animal, the less susceptable to this high speed 'shock' they seem.

Don't overlook the tissue and blood vessel "cauterizing" phenominum that seems attached to nerve and tissue shock produced by high speed bullets.

We, human beings, are suseceptable to this so-called nerve shock - it's part and parcel to being human. You can slice your hand, leg or arm open and feel no pain - no bleeding, either, right away that is - nerve shock blocks the pain and has a cauterizing effect on the tissues. It takes some time before the blood flows, doesn't it - and then gushhhhhh.

Much the same thing happens (I surmise - yeah - my opinion) to an aminal that is hit by a high speed, rapidly expanding bullet that creates 'shock' to the system.

If you've ever watched a slower moving bullet (or arrow) go into and out of an animal and virtually immediately see the blood pour & continue to pour out the entrance and exit holes, you know what I mean. With the high speed rapidly expanding bullet, the blood inside doesn't pour out - there is a spray if the bullet exits or sometimes out the entrance, but then nothing - cut the deer, moose or elk, antelope open and the blood is like a chunk of jello, like an organ itself - congealed - by the shock? I think so. Makes sense.

That is why the PH's say 2,150fps is the goods - on all game. When hit, they bleed, no matter what they are.

On some game, the higher speed bullets work wonders, even the 270gr.(2,600fps MV) .375's shock 'effect' was noticable on plains game immediately after it's inception in 1912. Hunters were amazed at it seemed to kill like a lightening strike, on some animals some didn't die quickly - Hmm.

That 'shock' effect didn't always happen and it didn't happen much if at all on the really dangerous game - except maybe the lighter cats - maybe - sometimes did, not always.

I suspect you want a dangerous animal to bleed NOW and copiously, not to hold congealed blood in it's cavity and continue to bite, claw or trample - bleed out and die - shutdown - quickly.

Something to think about - maybe. Disregard if you wish.


Freeloader123
(.275 member)
03/03/11 08:22 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

We are all asute enough to know the bullet must be up to the job of doing the job we want it to, in anything we poke it, no matter what we launch it from.

High velocity seems to work on some game - mentioned that above, but the heavier and/or more dangerous the animal, the less susceptable to this high speed 'shock' they seem.

Don't overlook the tissue and blood vessel "cauterizing" phenominum that seems attached to nerve and tissue shock produced by high speed bullets.

We, human beings, are suseceptable to this so-called nerve shock - it's part and parcel to being human. You can slice your hand, leg or arm open and feel no pain - no bleeding, either, right away that is - nerve shock blocks the pain and has a cauterizing effect on the tissues. It takes some time before the blood flows, doesn't it - and then gushhhhhh.

Much the same thing happens (I surmise - yeah - my opinion) to an aminal that is hit by a high speed, rapidly expanding bullet that creates 'shock' to the system.

If you've ever watched a slower moving bullet (or arrow) go into and out of an animal and virtually immediately see the blood pour & continue to pour out the entrance and exit holes, you know what I mean. With the high speed rapidly expanding bullet, the blood inside doesn't pour out - there is a spray if the bullet exits or sometimes out the entrance, but then nothing - cut the deer, moose or elk, antelope open and the blood is like a chunk of jello, like an organ itself - congealed - by the shock? I think so. Makes sense.

That is why the PH's say 2,150fps is the goods - on all game. When hit, they bleed, no matter what they are.

On some game, the higher speed bullets work wonders, even the 270gr.(2,600fps MV) .375's shock 'effect' was noticable on plains game immediately after it's inception in 1912. Hunters were amazed at it seemed to kill like a lightening strike, on some animals some didn't die quickly - Hmm.

That 'shock' effect didn't always happen and it didn't happen much if at all on the really dangerous game - except maybe the lighter cats - maybe - sometimes did, not always.

I suspect you want a dangerous animal to bleed NOW and copiously, not to hold congealed blood in it's cavity and continue to bite, claw or trample - bleed out and die - shutdown - quickly.

Something to think about - maybe. Disregard if you wish.




I meant no insult.

What I meant was, no matter how nice or a dress you put her in, you're still going go have to find shoes to match.

In the case of a bullet, those shoes better be able to kick the hell out of whatever you point them at.


hunter_angler
(.300 member)
03/03/11 09:20 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

We have strayed far from formulas.

Have we essentially established that with large and/or dangerous game and the variety thereof, given the complexity of the reaction of living tissue and what if any vital organ is hit, that there really is no simple math?

That even disregarding recoil and weight of the rifle, and assuming well-constructed bullets:

Bigger (bullet weight, diameter) is better up to some point where additional mass becomes overkill?
Faster is better but perhaps only up to a point where higher velocity becomes even counterproductive?

I guess our ballistics hot stove league is a lot more fun than algebra anyway.


500Nitro
(.450 member)
03/03/11 09:26 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula


Regarding "given the complexity of the reaction of living tissue and what if any vital organ is hit, that there really is no simple math?" Look at it this way


Big animal, heart full of blood - whether a small(er) bullet traveling fast or a larger, heavier bullet travelling slower,
the effect is that it causes a pressure spike in the heart - which is of course already at high pressure as it is full of blood - and maybe a spike up to the brain - which as Kevin Robertson in his book describes so well, causes drop dead effect.

Then do the same with an empty heart - that's when I prefer a heavy, larger bullet.

Just my HO.

.


Freeloader123
(.275 member)
03/03/11 10:22 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

We have gotten far from formulas.

I'm not too interested in formulas. The only formula I know is this. Most of the things I shoot, almost anything works. As they get bigger, fewer things work.


hunter_angler
(.300 member)
03/03/11 12:22 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:


...I prefer a heavy, larger bullet.





I agree with you. I don't even hunt whitetails with anything smaller than 250 grainers in my .348 WIN.

I think with 500 gr and heavier, .45 caliber and up, well constructed bullets, at ranges at which large and dangerous game is typically hunted, velocity and even sectional density decline somewhat in importance. Solids of this sheer mass at reasonable speeds (yes, room for debate here, maybe 1900 fps plus) penetrate well (even on thick-skinned game), make large enough wound channels, and do a lot of tissue damage. 12 bore 500 gr round balls at slower velocities than that took a lot of big game in the early muzzleloading days of African hunting, and 500 and 535 gr fifty caliber bullets with SDs south of .3 have always penetrated well at moderate terminal speeds.

I think higher energy levels transmitted to the target do result in more shock and stopping power, and velocity can and does play a role here, but within reason I would never trade off caliber or bullet mass. Hence my preference for facing a grizzly with a Trapdoor .45-70 versus a .220 Swift, and for that matter a cape buffalo with a .470 NE versus a .375 Wby.

Just my $.02.


Freeloader123
(.275 member)
03/03/11 01:00 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

Quote:


...I prefer a heavy, larger bullet.










I suppose I'll have to be the outlier here, but the fact is that for smaller animals I don't prefer the bigger bullet.

For deer the 130 grain bullet works pretty well.

Maybe it's the case it's heavy enough, and you don't need more. I've never wanted more. Not out of a .270.


500Nitro
(.450 member)
03/03/11 01:13 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula


Freeloader

We were - or I was - talking about Big Game - bigger than deer.

Re your 270, I always go the bigger bullet as I reckon it just gives you the edge on angling shots for penetration
as the weight carries it through well.


hunter_angler
(.300 member)
03/03/11 02:51 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:



We were - or I was - talking about Big Game - bigger than deer.

Re your 270, I always go the bigger bullet as I reckon it just gives you the edge on angling shots for penetration
as the weight carries it through well.




Again, I agree.

I am the one guilty of changing the subject by bringing up whitetails, but have to say that even on deer, at least in the deep woods where I hunt, I prefer a bigger, heavier bullet to stop and anchor the animal where I hit him. Maybe I am just a lousy shot through the trees and brush with my iron sights, but I hate tracking wounded game, and I want the hunt over as quickly and humanely as possible.

Now, where I hunt there are few shots over 75 yards. If you hunt deer in the open, with good visibility and at longer and more varying ranges, somewhat lighter bullets and higher velocities make for flatter shooting, and I can understand the preference.

Even against larger or dangerous game, a relatively smaller .338 or .375 magnum probably makes more sense at 150 yards or more. When it's up close and personal (like it should be when it's more about hunting than marksmanship, IMHO), give me at least a .400. I also believe that close range hunting is what Mr. Taylor was talking about.


500Nitro
(.450 member)
03/03/11 03:00 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula


Having shot a fair few BG / DG - as in Water Buffalo
and Scrub bulls and a fair few pigs with smaller cals, one thing is for certain.

Animals do not stand perfectly side on or present the perfect shot for you. Going on from here, you therefore have to make a judgement on taking the shot.

I use the 5th rib rule, which is if I can see the 5th rib, because I use a bigger calibre and / or a heavier bullet,
I know that I can take the shot because even if I hit the rib, the bullet will still get to the vitals. You just can't guarantee that with lighter bullets.

Just my HO.

.


Freeloader123
(.275 member)
03/03/11 03:51 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

Quote:



We were - or I was - talking about Big Game - bigger than deer.

Re your 270, I always go the bigger bullet as I reckon it just gives you the edge on angling shots for penetration
as the weight carries it through well.




Again, I agree.

I am the one guilty of changing the subject by bringing up whitetails, but have to say that even on deer, at least in the deep woods where I hunt, I prefer a bigger, heavier bullet to stop and anchor the animal where I hit him. Maybe I am just a lousy shot through the trees and brush with my iron sights, but I hate tracking wounded game, and I want the hunt over as quickly and humanely as possible.

Now, where I hunt there are few shots over 75 yards. If you hunt deer in the open, with good visibility and at longer and more varying ranges, somewhat lighter bullets and higher velocities make for flatter shooting, and I can understand the preference.

Even against larger or dangerous game, a relatively smaller .338 or .375 magnum probably makes more sense at 150 yards or more. When it's up close and personal (like it should be when it's more about hunting than marksmanship, IMHO), give me at least a .400. I also believe that close range hunting is what Mr. Taylor was talking about.




For once I'm not guilty of changing the subject.

I grew up in the Pacific Northwest hunting blacktails in the thick woods and I do not use a .270 there. I use a .300 Savage. But I've got to confess to using 150 grain bullets as opposed to 180 grain bullets. For two reasons; (a) that's what's on the shelves in the stores where I bought my ammo and (b) they work.

It may be that my experience is different than most, but for animals below 300 pounds I don't find the heaviest-for-caliber-bullet to be the best choice. I seem to anchor them better when I use bigger-than-needed-cartridge with a light-but-still-reasonable bullet.


hunter_angler
(.300 member)
04/03/11 12:42 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Freeloader:

I hear ya. I err a little on the bigger side in caliber, but with my .348 I use 250 grainers in the U.P. for deer and black bear, as opposed to 270 gr which I will take to Alaska, and when I used to hunt more with my .45-70 I would generally use 300gr and leave the 400 gr plus for bigger and badder stuff.

I like some margin for error, but am not about unneccessary recoil, or using way more gun/bullet than what I think is needed.

I guess it's all relative. Now that there is 190 gr factory ammo available, I might even try my old .30-30 again. As I get a little older I appreciate just how light and handy the Winny '94 I have had since I was young is to carry in the backcountry.


Wes350
(.224 member)
14/03/11 04:50 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

I'm curious; that is the "old" speed for my .416. 2400 fps is about what Rigby & co. got out of her. Now it's "bad news.?"





Actually, The original Rigby load was 2,350fps out of a 28" test barrel.

In 24" lengths velocity would have been around 2,300fps.

The .416 rigby made its rep at a lower velocity than many credit it for.

Not unusual though, if one reads the velocity figures Taylor quotes for cartridges like the .30-06 and others that have made it to today, you can see that modern loadings are about 100fps faster than origional spec.

Extra velocity isn't needed because all those cartridges made thier reputations long before US manufacture's started loading them up to "improve" performance.


.


eagle27
(.400 member)
14/03/11 06:00 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Wes350, the Kynoch website lists their loads for the various cartridges they load today and it seems they have stuck to the original specifications for these cartridges. They list the 404 Jeffery 400gr at 2125fps from a 28" barrel with 16 tons/inch2 pressure, the 416 Rigby 410gr at 2300fps from a 26" barrel with 18 tons/inch2 pressure and the 425WR 410gr at 2350fps from a 32" barrel with 18tons/inch2 pressure.

Of course these barrel lengths are not the normal length used on the old Mausers or any modern gun, most being 24" or less. The original WR rifles did have long 28" barrels according to Taylor which were unhandy to use in the bush.

If your Rigby velocity of 2350fps was indeed that and derived from a 28" barrel you would expect a drop of more than 50fps going to a 24" barrel. Even at 20fps per inch less barrel length which is low, your MV for the Rigby would be 2270fps.

As always there is only one way to find out exactly what the MV is of any gun with any load and barrel length and that is to chrony it. My Mauser 404 usually gives 100fps less than advertised factory loads so is around 2150 fps with factory stuff. Got the job done on some big Aussie buffalo without any drama and I suppose that is all you ask for.


Bindi2
(.275 member)
14/03/11 11:01 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

i have been following this thread with interst. The last poster gives it in tonns per sq inch. An engineer i know was asked why he was using such a large hammer so gently instead of a smaller one. The answer was you can give a little hit with a big hammer but not a big hit with a small hammer.
The thread 12bore from hell has me thinking what will a 730gn projectile figures be at 1800fps to 2500fps be. I think some well known calibres may retreat to small rifle status.


DarylS
(.700 member)
15/03/11 01:11 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Good suggestion, Bindi2. A 730 @ 2,500fps, by the formula, produces 10,133fpe - so that number and designation actually means that bullet developes the energy required to move 10,133 pounds, 1 foot.

I don't happen to believe that it will do that. You shouldn't either. It is a meaningless number in relation to a bullet. The formula is flawed and should not be used to describe anything to do with bullets.

This post is not meant to belittle the potential killing power of a 730gr. bullet at 2,500fps, just that the formula does not produce meaningful numbers to explain or express that power.


eagle27
(.400 member)
15/03/11 03:41 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

i have been following this thread with interst. The last poster gives it in tonns per sq inch. An engineer i know was asked why he was using such a large hammer so gently instead of a smaller one. The answer was you can give a little hit with a big hammer but not a big hit with a small hammer.
The thread 12bore from hell has me thinking what will a 730gn projectile figures be at 1800fps to 2500fps be. I think some well known calibres may retreat to small rifle status.




Hi Bindi2, you may have misunderstood (or not), and to be fair I should have clarified that the lbs/inch2 referred to the chamber pressure not hitting power or knock down. I was just noting the chamber pressure to show that while 404 Jeffery cartridge recorded lower velocities than the 416R and 425WR it could easily be loaded up to similar velocities if the chamber pressure was increased to the same level. In fact this is what some factory loadings have done and many reloaders do.


Bindi2
(.275 member)
15/03/11 07:36 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

i should explain where i am coming from.
Recently a 300 Wthy Mag was fired at a well known gas cylinder @ 25 -30m to see what the results were. The cylinder hardly moved in fact some onlookers said the shooter missed, a short walk proved other wise with a hole dead centre 3/4 up from the bottom through both sides. A 12bore with 1.5oz solid was produced and fired at the same range same cylinder. The results were the cylinder cartwheeled 6m the impact had started to tear the metal but entry did not occur. In summary the 300 had to much power and did little to the cylinder other than a perfect hole in and out. The 12 bore did not gain full entry but did move the cylinder 6m all the power staid with the cylinder. At that range i think i would get very friendly with the 12 bore it has to hurt more.
That new Woodleigh wadcutter is an old design using modern componets brillantly.


kamilaroi
(.400 member)
15/03/11 08:34 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

^ Cough. ????????

Any US respondeents care to comment?


hunter_angler
(.300 member)
16/03/11 02:16 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Per my posts above, penetration kills, but it is not everything. A big, heavy bullet with good cross sectional area moving at sufficient velocity will not only penetrate, but transmit a lot of energy to the target and impart shock and stopping power. This is what I think Taylor was trying to get at in the first place.

I am sure a .300 WIN mag with the right bullet will fatally wound/kill a buffalo just fine. You just don't want it to die after it has run over or through you. Something like a .450 NE or bigger keeps that from happening. After a certain point high velocities as a component of ballistics help for flat shooting at longer range, but provide only so much benefit up close.

As has been said by a wiser man than and long before me, a .58 caliber conical from a blackpowder muzzleoader may not penetrate end-to-end and exit the other side of a moose, but it makes an awful big hole going in. A .72 caliber even more so...


Bindi2
(.275 member)
16/03/11 04:09 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Hunter Angler well said.

Reggie
(.224 member)
16/04/11 06:07 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Bottom Line: ALWAYS USE MORE THAN ENOUGH GUN!

Reggie


BillA
(.224 member)
19/04/11 03:39 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Hi all.

Very interesting thread.
My own theory? experience + education + luck = success.
Fact is we are all far better educated regarding ballistics then most were back in Taylor's day.
We also have entirely different components to consider.
No matter what forumla we come up with there will always be variants which will take it one way toward success or the other toward failure.
Bullet jacket thickness is but one factor.
Even with regard to 'solids'. Are we talking about 'hard' solids or 'soft' solids?
The metallurgical composition of a solid could render one successful & another a complete failure.
Then we even have factors such as the animal itself.
Heavy boned, lighter boned, etc.
There's really no absolutes in it all.
In the end 'formulas' are only a guide.
They are all prone to failure unless all factors combine to produce the right results.

And after all's said & done - elephants, lion, & cape buff' cant read.


tophet1
(.400 member)
19/04/11 05:25 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

I don't mind the TKO formula out of the few that are around. It gels with my own phylosophy of slow and heavy beats fast and light. If there is no other info to go on, it is better than nothing.

I do however keep in the back of my mind that it is only a formula, based on calculations. I believe there is no better teacher than experience and to get that, you have to get out there and shoot stuff.


eagle27
(.400 member)
19/04/11 07:31 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

I don't mind the TKO formula out of the few that are around. It gels with my own phylosophy of slow and heavy beats fast and light. If there is no other info to go on, it is better than nothing.

I do however keep in the back of my mind that it is only a formula, based on calculations. I believe there is no better teacher than experience and to get that, you have to get out there and shoot stuff.




It is a formula, but not just based on calculations, it was developed by Taylor to explain his field experience on the stopping ability of the different cartridges and bullets when used against dangerous game, namely killing Elephant which of course was Taylor's purpose in life. He made it clear that most any cartridge could easily drop an elephant or any animal for that matter if the bullet was placed into the brain but where the large calibre dangerous game cartridges (40cal above) came into their own was if the shot was just off the brain, his KO value gave an indication of the effectiveness of the cartridge in turning a charge or stunning the animal giving enough time for a follow up killing shot.

I agree his formula is not perfect for use today but considering that in Taylor's time the velocities in the big calibres were all within a hundred or so fps of each other and the bullet profiles were all very much the same, the formula did provide a pretty good comparative scale for the African big bores.


kamilaroi
(.400 member)
19/04/11 08:50 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

^ but he dicked it big time on the 9.5 x 57 MS and the 10.75 x 68 damned by poor projie construction rather than reality.

eagle27
(.400 member)
20/04/11 02:29 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

^ but he dicked it big time on the 9.5 x 57 MS and the 10.75 x 68 damned by poor projie construction rather than reality.




Well no, Taylor could only write about cartirdges as they were in his day. He did write about some poor bullets that one professional used in his .404 but these seemed to be the exception so he praised the .404J rather than write it off.

Hindsight is all well and good for us to use today now that we have some great bullets available that up the performance of some of the old cartridges. The 10.75x68 was to be Mauser's contribution to dangerous game knock down cartridges but unfortunately poor bullet construction and a lower sectional density than say the 375H&H, .404J and 416R did not endear the cartridge to Taylor. He did admit that it was popular but probably more through the availability of the cheap light Mausers he also spoke of as being on the market.


chuck375
(.333 member)
21/04/11 11:49 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

I think a combination of the TKO formula, Art Alphin's penetration index and a lower bound kinetic energy threshold is what we're looking for. The TKO takes rewards bullet diameter and momentum, the penetration index penalizes bullet diameter somewhat but rewards SD and momentum, and kinetic energy should act as a minimum threshold. The penetration index and kinetic energy thresholds should eliminate the baseball problem. Since the 375 H&H has long been considered a good cape buffalo and adequate elephant caliber it gives us a starting place:

375 H&H shooting a 300g bullet at 2550 fps: TKO 40 PI 120 KE 4330

416 Rigby shooting a 400g bullet at 2400 fps: TKO 57 PI 124 KE 5115

500 Jeffery shooting a 570g bullet at 2400 fps: TKO 99 PI 112 KE 7288

and just to add to the mix ...

375 Weatherby shooting a 350g bullet at 2550 fps TKO 47 PI 163 KE 5052

I'd love to see the 375 Weatherby Penetration Index validated with some empirical testing.


Just some data to think about, no conclusions on my part.


Freeloader123
(.275 member)
29/05/11 10:40 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Since this thread has been resurrected, I thought I'd weigh in with a stray thought. Has anybody but me noticed that certain shot angles seem to anchor an animal quicker? Memory is a fickle thing, but I recall having to track more animals that I shot broadside than those I shot quartering towards me where the neck meets the chest.

My experience may well be atypical. But it goes to the point of why I find formulas for killing power problematic. What's typical?


Grenadier
(.375 member)
29/05/11 01:13 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

Since the 375 H&H has long been considered a good cape buffalo and adequate elephant caliber it gives us a starting place:

375 H&H shooting a 300g bullet at 2550 fps: TKO 40 PI 120 KE 4330
416 Rigby shooting a 400g bullet at 2400 fps: TKO 57 PI 124 KE 5115
500 Jeffery shooting a 570g bullet at 2400 fps: TKO 99 PI 112 KE 7288
and just to add to the mix ...
375 Weatherby shooting a 350g bullet at 2550 fps TKO 47 PI 163 KE 5052
I'd love to see the 375 Weatherby Penetration Index validated with some empirical testing.
Just some data to think about, no conclusions on my part.





Shouldn't such things be calculated using the velocity of the bullet at the impact range? Art Alphin lists different ranges when discussing his penetration index. Why not for TKO? There is a difference.

For example:

338 Win Mag Federal, 225gr Trophy Bonded
TKO @ muzzle = 33
TKO @ 100yds = 30

9.3x74R Win Mag Federal, 286gr Barnes Banded
TKO @ muzzle = 35
TKO @ 100yds = 30

458 Lott Federal, 500gr Trophy Bonded
TKO @ muzzle = 75
TKO @ 100yds = 66

470 N.E. Federal, 500gr Trophy Bonded
TKO @ muzzle = 75
TKO @ 100yds = 63

Tools like TKO, MV, ME, and PI allow us to compare and contrast loads and cartridges. Values in one tool favor one load whereas values in another tool favor another load. Application to the "real world" is useful but limited. Effectiveness on game has to do with many factors, including bullet construction. For example, would it be better to shoot a bear with a soft nose .338 or a solid .458? Another example is the Paradox bullet. It has a high TKO but, because it is soft lead and will deform against hard targets, it does not conform to the "non-deforming" projectile used in Art Alphin's penetration index. Also, The Paradox bullet scores a whopping Thornily Stopping Power Scale value of 298 but, because of bullet construction, it is not recommended against "Hippopotamus, Rhinoceros, Cape Buffalo, or Elephant".

Still, just for fun,
.735 Fosbery Paradox bullet, 740gr lead
TKO @ muzzle = 81
TKO @ 100yds = 76



DarylS
(.700 member)
30/05/11 04:07 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

All mathmatical formulae that attempt to display/compare ctg. killing power fail due to simple aspects of bullet construction, penetration, attendent tissue destruction and different game reaction to nerve shock - at the time of impact.

Too many important factors to be condensed into in a mere number.

I always used to like the TKO #'s or Elmers Pound-feet - but now realize my first paragraph is more accurate. No fomulae work. I still prefer big and slow because it seems to, for me. Maybe that's the real test. - HA!


Freeloader123
(.275 member)
30/05/11 10:59 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

"No fomulae work. I still prefer big and slow"

Stop me if I'm wrong, but that latter half seems a formula to me. And I have no problem with it.

Maybe you should write a book.


DarylS
(.700 member)
30/05/11 11:09 AM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

I am referring to formual that produce numbers for comparrison - those numbers don't seem to work - for me, anyway.
I know that high velocity seemingly kills some game incredibly fast, lightening fast in fact, while heavies kill them slower. Used on another animal on the same hunt even, the fast one takes a big back seat to the slower, heavier bullet in killing power while at times, they seem to switch places - the various formulae do not provide any concrete or dependable data for me to process all the time.

FPE has become,for me, largly a laughing stock especially when applied to large bores and round balls- whether they are shot from modern-type double rifles of bore size, or muzzleloading rifles.

Perhaps ctgs. need to be segregated into 'classes' or 'categories' wherein specific formulae work? Too, classes of animals and categories of them would also have to be matched to the various formulae - makes my head hurt just thinking of it.

I'd rather just go big and slow and be done with it as I know it will work.


Freeloader123
(.275 member)
30/05/11 12:36 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

What I like about your non-formula is it's the American way.

Firepower.

If it's not working, you're not using enough of it.


Omnivorous_Bob
(.333 member)
01/06/11 12:01 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

I've always looks at the TKO scale as a non-empirical way to compare the relative merits of two big game cartridges. If Cartridge A has a TKO of 20 and Cartridge B is 60, then B is better than A.

B is NOT three times better or three times as effective, just 'better', all else being equal, which it never is!

Cheers,
Bob


eagle27
(.400 member)
01/06/11 05:10 PM
Re: Views on Taylor Knockout (TKO) Formula

Quote:

I've always looks at the TKO scale as a non-empirical way to compare the relative merits of two big game cartridges. If Cartridge A has a TKO of 20 and Cartridge B is 60, then B is better than A.

B is NOT three times better or three times as effective, just 'better', all else being equal, which it never is!

Cheers,
Bob




Nicely put Bob. When discussing Taylor's KO formula we should keep in mind his take on it. It purely represented his field experience on the knock out effect of bullets to elephant with head shots that missed the brain. Obviously any cartridge that got its bullet into the brain easily killed an elephant but Taylor was more interested in the safety factor of the stun effect of a shot close to the brain and the heavier and greater diameter the bullet the better this stun effect was in his experience.

He did not even think it relevant to reveal how he derived his formula as again it was just a reflection and some way of quantifying the stun effect of big bullets learned from his field experience, and vast that was.

To try and relate that to any other formula or to try and relate it to shooting other game never was Taylor's intention and it is pointless for us to do that today.
While many of us accept his KO formula for what it was and is, some seem to deride it as irrelevant. I guess if anyone today has had the experience Taylor had and shot as many animals as he did without accompanying PHs and modern equipment, then if they say his formula was B...S I suppose I would have to believe them. Anyone for starters?



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