| Igorrock |
| (.400 member) |
| 29/10/10 01:57 AM |
9,3x70 DWM
|
Has anybody info of that old german caliber ?
| rigbymauser |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/10/10 01:53 AM |
|
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Its a very powerfull caliber made to Hermann Göring back in the 30`s.
There was 3 loads from DWM, and I remember from an artical the 292grain bullet did some 852 m/sek.
I have one of these cartridges in my collection somewhere. It measures 89mm C.O.L, and is loaded by EXPERT. Modern loads also comes with woodleighs 320grain @ 820 M/sek.
The casevolume should be 15% larger than the .375H&H
DWM-Klassiker: 9,3x70
Die 9,3 x 70 - weitgehend unbekannt und doch bestens geeignet für weite Schüsse auf schweres Wild
Hansgeorg Arndt
Von Roland Zeitler
Während die Patronen 9,3x62, 9,3x64 und 9,3x74R allseits bekannt sind, können die wenigsten Jäger etwas mit der Kaliberbezeichnung 9,3x70 anfangen. Die DWM-Patronenfabrik in Karlsruhe beschäftigte sich in den 20er Jahren mit Patronenentwicklungen auf Basis der .404 Jeffery-Hülse (alias 10,75x73). Aus der Grundhülse wurden Kaliber wie 7,65x70, 7,65x77, 8x73 und eben auch die 9,3x70 entwickelt.
Von den genannten Patronen ist wohl nur die 9,3x70 in Serienfertigung gegangen. Die Patrone mit Rille, 70-Millimeter-Hülse und 30-Grad-Schulter wurde seit Ende der 20er Jahre von DWM gefertigt und mit Geschossen von 15,0 bis 18,59 Gramm ausgestattet. Obwohl sich mit Kunstgriffen die Patrone noch in Standard-98er-Systeme unterbringen läßt, ist es ein typisches Kaliber für das Mauser-Magnumsystem.
Wiederbelebt wurde dieses alte Kaliber von Harald Wolff (Belgien) und Günter Frères. Johannsen bietet fünf Laborierungen (davon eine Vollmantel) an, versehen mit Geschossen von 250, 285, 300 und 320 Grains. Zwölf Patronen kosten zwischen 122 und 134 Mark. Die Laborierung mit dem 300 Grains Swift-A-Frame-Geschoß erbrachte aus der Testwaffe eine V5 von 825 Meter/Sekunde, was rechnerisch eine Energie von 6616 Joule ergibt. Je nach verladenem Geschoß reichen die Energiewerte von rund 6500 bis knapp 7000 Joule an der Mündung. Zum Vergleich schafft die 9,3x64 etwa 5800 Joule.
Die 9,3x70 eignet sich für weite Schüsse auf schweres Wild. Sie ist ideal für Bären, Wapiti, Elch, Löwe und Plains Game. Aber auch für Rot- und Schwarzwild stellt sie eine gute Wahl dar.
Hansgeorg Arndt
| HuntingSchneider |
| (.333 member) |
| 30/10/10 03:32 AM |
|
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Quote:
Has anybody info of that old german caliber ?
Hatari times had an article on it in one of the first couple of editions. I'll see if I can find it.
I was/am also interested in one, but have had some trouble with a set of dies. The ones I purchased cracked and I was informed by the importer that the brass I was using was too hard ?????????????????
.
| Igorrock |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/10/10 05:32 AM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Thanks for your posting. Is it possible to have any fotos of that "monster"?
I have an idea to shorten .404 case so much that it fits to .30-06 -lenght action and then maybe neck it down to 9,3 bullet. Thats why I like .404`s small shoulder angle, long neck and case without any belt.
| Yochanan |
| (.375 member) |
| 30/10/10 06:02 AM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
I got the article on file.
Let me know where to send it.
Cheers
Johan
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 30/10/10 06:37 AM |
|
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
15% greater capacity than a .375H&H would be just about identical to the capacity of a .375H&H Ackley Improved, which is a couple gr. more than a .375 Weatherby.
| Yochanan |
| (.375 member) |
| 30/10/10 07:00 AM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Igorrock.
C.O.L - for 9,3x70 is 89mm. It will quite easily fit in a Brno ZG-47 action.
| Rolf |
| (.333 member) |
| 02/11/10 11:00 PM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Gentlemen,
Johannsen in Germany makes custom rifles in this caliber.
(www.johannsen-jagd.de)
Cases are not listed in the Horneber standard catalogue (http://www.huelsen-horneber.de/frame.html) but he produces also cases for custom orders.
If we find enough people interested in this caliber, we can make a collect order...
I would step in with both feet! :-)
Energy level:
Assumed that the .375 H&H is equal to 9,3x64, then the 9,3x70 should be similar to the .375 Weatherby.
And now with the 320grs bullets in 9,3mm from Degol (or Woodleigh?) available!
best regards
Rolf
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 05/11/10 11:23 AM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Here are the pages from the 1934 "Patrone und Schuss" DWM catalog, showing the original loads:
| reddy375 |
| (.224 member) |
| 14/09/11 12:42 PM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
From what I have heard "it was Gorings favorite caliber" is a figment of Harold Wolfs imagination! Anyway it is a thumper, I have used it in Namibia. Belongs to a german PH friend who is passionate about guns. Shot a very nice 41"+ gemsbok and a good springbok with it last year. His gun is a new rifle made by Johansen in germany I believe. He reloads for it using 404 brass.
| rigbymauser |
| (.400 member) |
| 15/09/11 04:30 AM |
|
|
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Great posting. It is rare to see game today shot with the 9.3x70.
| Bison |
| (.224 member) |
| 18/05/12 08:37 AM |
|
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Do you have any load information...in English system, please... What velocity in fps with what bullet
weight was used.
Harold Wolf only said that that a Berlin gunmaker, Ludwig Schiwy had built a rifle in the 9.3x70 on special order for Herman Goring in his Hatari Times news. He did not ay that it was Herman Goring's
favorite as far as I can find.
Best Regards,
Tom
| Igorrock |
| (.400 member) |
| 18/05/12 05:19 PM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Maybe this helps ?
http://www.namibianhunter.de/Hunting/Hunting/Guns.html
First click "Reloading for African rifles", then choose caliber 9,3x70 and submit....
This machine is very usefull for other "african" calibers too.
| Bison |
| (.224 member) |
| 19/05/12 04:25 AM |
|
|
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Thanks, Yes it does help. I wanted to compare my 9.3x64 Newton cartridge with the 9.3x70 Mag.
My 9.3 Newton is more powerful'
Best Regards,
Tom email: bisonland1@optimum.net
| Igorrock |
| (.400 member) |
| 19/05/12 06:09 AM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Is 9,3x64 Newton a kind of Ackley Improved version of Brenneke one´s?
| Bison |
| (.224 member) |
| 20/05/12 01:47 AM |
|
|
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Hello Igorrock;
Glad you asked. Not really...I'll fill you in on the 9.3x64 Newton now:
The case does look similar to the 9.3x64 Brenneke. But the 9.3x64 Newton case has more volume, I have a 9.3x64 Brenneke case & its case volume I carefully measured of this RWS case as 84.0 gr. water. The 9.3 Newton has 89 gr. water. However, the larger volume & more powder at the top end loading makes a good difference in velocity.
Here's how I made the 9.3x64 Newton. Its simply a .35 Newton case necked up to 9.3 caliber. The Newton cases are very good, a modern type case design with a big body, yet standard size length (.30-06 length).
However, even though .35 Newton cases are being made...they are too expensive! A better way is to just buy .375 Ruger brass, shorten the brass to 2.5 inches long & size it in the 9.3x64 Newton die.
You can also buy .375 Ruger "basic" brass that has no caliber headstamp, have it headstamped 9.3x 64 Newton, then size it.
Now...I have a .35 Newton chamber reamer...so my gunsmith used that on a 9.3 barrel, then a 9.3 neck reamer to make it the 9.3. I fired 3 cartridges, send the fired cartridges to Hornady and they made the custom 9.3x64 Newton dies for it. Since then, all I do is use .375 Ruger brass, shortened & sized
in the custom dies.
I corresponded with Harold Wolf as he made a 9.3x70 mag. rifle, and giving him my 9.3x64 Newton
ballistics, he said it was more than what he got from his 9.3x70 mag. and warned me about too high
pressures...but my pressure is OK.
If you put the 9.3x64 Brenneke next to the 9.3x64 Newton, you will notice that the Newton case has
a larger base, and shoulder diameter, and the shoulder angle on both cases look the same. The Newton
case neck is very slightly longer...but not much. Case lengths about the same. Its a better looking
case than the 9.3x64 Brenneke.I'm not sure if you know of Charles Newton, but he was the greatest
American case designer. I made the 9.3x64 Newton, a .416 Newton & a .450 (.458) Newton based on the
same parent Newton case...and they are all superior cartridges.
Best Regards,
Tom from Wyoming
| Bison |
| (.224 member) |
| 20/05/12 01:57 AM |
|
|
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Igorrock:
I can get 2900 fps with the 286 gr. bullet in my 9.3x64 Newton...the rifle was formerly a CZ 550
in 9.3x62 that I had my gunsmith convert to the more powerful 9.3x64 Newton as described above.
I have to do more "experimenting" with my loads...I only did some, then am handicapped as I had
shoulder surgery (rotator cuff) surgery & am still recovering & not strong yet to handle the weight
of rilfes...I have about 3 more months recovery period.
My .416 Newton was similarily made...using the .35 newton reamer for the case body, and a .416 neck
reamer for the .416 caliber. Performance & load data is similar to the .416 Taylor.
The .450 Newton(I chose the British ystem of caliber) is actually a .458. The performance of this
one really surprised me as it is as powerful .458 Lott! With a smaller case , and very slight
shoulder, the shoulder is minimal but it works fine! All cases are not belted, of course.
Best Regards,
Tom
| Igorrock |
| (.400 member) |
| 20/05/12 02:41 AM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
OK, sounds like a bomb, Charles Newton was a kind of genius on his time. But I think just 9,3 mm Newton could be a better name for yours ammo. That´s because it has no relationship to 9,3x64 Brenneke, only same bullet diameter and the lenght of case. Brenneke has 7mm, 8mm, 9,3mm i.e. whole family of x64 ammos
| Bison |
| (.224 member) |
| 20/05/12 03:12 AM |
|
|
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Igorrock:
You are correct...but all the 9.3s used the length of the case in its designation, like there is
a 9.3x57, 9.3x62, 9.3x64, 9.3x72, 9.3x74...where the last number: 57, 62, 72, 74, etc. is the case length in mm. So...I used the "64" to indicate like the others...the case length of 64mm.
The 9.3 Newton case length is 64 mm.
The 9.3x70 magnum has a case length of 70mm....hence the 2nd number indicating case length...so is what I used to indicate the 9.3 Newton has a case length of 64mm.
I have a photo of the case comparison...but don't know how to post photos on this site?! or I'd post it for you to see the comparison...
Best regards,
Tom
ps. I used to have a Finnish/American friend...my sister used to correspond with a Finnish girl
in Helsinki
| Igorrock |
| (.400 member) |
| 20/05/12 04:38 AM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Yes, allmost all 9,3 mm caliber markings have the lenght of the case too. That´s because they all are european but 9,3 mm Newton is a wildcat and an US caliber so there are two good reasons to name it a little different way, like 8mm Mazón which is necked down 9,3 mm Brenneke.
| Bison |
| (.224 member) |
| 20/05/12 08:01 AM |
|
|
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Hi Igorrock:
Well...your idea is good...but its too late. I already have the cases being stamped "9.3x64 Newton"
and I wanted to have the name "Newton" on the case to give Mr. Newton the credit as its derived from
his Newton case...plus the dies are already stamped "9.3x64 Newton"..so like is said...its "water over the dam" now, or too late! Anyway, you ignore that "9.3" is metric anyway, if it were English
units, it would be .366 bore...
Still I think its the Best 9.3 cartridge...not extreme, yet probably the most powerful.
I once had a write up on an Internet site of having developed Newton Big Bore cartridge wildcats...but the site was removed later...it had photos & descriptions of my 9.3, .416 & .458
Newtons. If the site comes back...I'll forward you the link.
In any case...it was a good idea...as the big body Newton design lends itself to big bore
cartridges, yet efficient modern design.
Mostly...I didn't have a point to prove...just wanted to satisfy my own curiosity & am happy that I did it, as they all turned out very well!
I have some standard factory newton cartridges...the .256 Newton, .30 Newton, .35 Newton as well as the Big bore wildcats...9.3, .416 & .458 Newton wildcats.
Best Regards,
Tom
| CZ_hunter |
| (.275 member) |
| 31/08/13 03:22 AM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Here you can find an article and picture of the cartridge...
http://www.johannsen-jagd.de/data_de/presse/jagen/magnummanie.pdf
[image]http://
[/image] I believe the cartridge cries for the 320 grain bullet, the 300 grain bullet can be driven to 825 m/s (ca 2700 f/s) and generates 6600 J(ca 4900 ft.-lb.)
CZ
| Yochanan |
| (.375 member) |
| 31/08/13 03:29 AM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
If anyone interested, I got the Hatari times article on 9,3x70 DWM.
| Igorrock |
| (.400 member) |
| 07/10/13 03:35 AM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
This is old topic but time goes fast and in the mean time I have got an extra .416 barrel blank. Now I´m thinking over how difficult is open 9,3x64 case to .416 bullet....
| Ash |
| (.400 member) |
| 09/11/13 09:00 PM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Igorrock - that cartridge is in Cartridges of the World (at least, it is in 12th edition), listed as the "416 BGA". Velocity says 400gr @ 2200fps. Pages 262 & 263.
Reddy375, that is an absolutely gorgeous gun! Any more pictures?
| 333_okh |
| (.275 member) |
| 10/04/15 03:35 PM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
I just need one brass case..this is my next built and remier is a little much at $160 a box to the US
| 333_okh |
| (.275 member) |
| 03/05/15 04:10 PM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
There is a .308 Winchester, a 8x57 Mauser, and 30'06 Springfield, and .338 Winchester Magnum, BUT the biggest one is the 9,3x70mm from EXPERT. It is AMAZING to look and handle.
Makes the 338 Win Mag look minute, and not the North American thumper it is!
| rigbymauser |
| (.400 member) |
| 03/05/15 05:39 PM |
|
|
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
I have one of these 9,3x70 cartridges. I got it from a gundealer here in Denmark. It is a good looking round and I still considering a M98 made up in that caliber.
| 333_okh |
| (.275 member) |
| 04/05/15 07:59 AM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Me too. I am thinking what action is the best. Maybe a Montana Professional Hunter 1999
| Wanabebwana |
| (.300 member) |
| 25/05/15 07:11 AM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
Unless you want your name associated with a new cartridge there is no need to design one.
Just about every combination of case and bore size have already been tried.
Why design a 9.3 with a shortened .404 case when you can buy dies reamers and brass or loaded ammo in .375 Dakota.(There is only a .009" difference in diameter between a 9.3 and .375).
Not available at your local shop,try .375 Ruger.
Gotta have a 9.3 try 9.3x64.
| GPJ12345 |
| (.300 member) |
| 05/06/15 01:19 AM |
|
Re: 9,3x70 DWM
|
If you need the 404 Jeffery brass as part of the caliber you can consider the .360 Imperial Magnum, the Canadians was the first company to use the 404 Jeffery brass to neck down/up different calibers with a lot of success...very interesting story behind the Imperial Magnum brand history...
Dies and reamers are available on the market...
IMPERIAL MAGNUM CORPORATION ~--•
The History of Imperial Magnum Cartridges by Aubrey G. White, January, 2003
The genesis of the modem commercial beltless magnums is the story of the
Imperial Magnum cartridge development.
In 1989 Gus Rios, President of Royal Canadian Cartridge & Munitions Inc.
(RCCM) of North Vancouver, B.C., purchased the "Imperial" and related
Trademarks from Valcartier Industries Ltd. (IVI). These Trademarks had
been purchased by IVI from the original Trademark holders, Canadian
Industries Ltd. (CIL). CIL had been producing ammunition continuously in
Canada since about 1919.
RCCM intended to reintroduce a full line of Imperial brand ammunition to
the International market place. To attract attention to the Imperial
trademark they wished to develop a new, high performance, magnum rifle
cartridge. RIOS had developed a cartridge he called the "Imperial .311
Canadian Magnum". This cartridge was the belted .338 Winchester case
necked down to .311 caliber but did not provide the attention getting
performance he was looking for. Aubrey White of Osoyoos, B.C.
suggested that RCCM develop a full line of magnum cartridges, from 7mm
to .358, all based on the non-belted .404 Jeffery case. It was anticipated
that full length cartridges based on this case would be capable of out
performing all existing belted magnums in their class. A .404 beltless case
also provided additional benefits in that it allowed the maximum powder
capacity possible in standard magnum rifle actions, ensured more accurate
head spacing and improved feeding through rifle magazines. A non-beltled
case is also less costly to produce than one with a belt.
Even though White suggested other common calibers be given priority,
Rios wanted the .311 caliber for a unique Canadian identity. White's
company, North American Shooting Systems (NASS) designed and formed
the cases, assembled some ammunition and a rifle for the .311.
...... ..Page Two
Page Two
The first test firing occurred on October 31st, 1989. By the next day,
November 1st, load development resulted in record results. 180 gr. Sierra
.311 bullets were consistently chronographed at 3,,435 fps within acceptable
pressure limits, faster than any other in history. That performance was
achieved with hand formed RWS .404 Jeffery cases, 89.0 grains of RL22
powder and #215 Federal primers in a 26" MacLennan barrel. It is still one
of the very best loads for the .31L
In 1990 NASS was licensed exclusively by RCCM to use the Imperial
trademark to produce rifles. The cartridges were named "Imperial
Magnum". RCCM was to produce cartridge cases and eventually load
ammunition. Kimber of Oregon built one prototype rifle for NASS
chambered for the .360 Imperial. Serial number of this rifle is NASS-OOO1.
NASS intended to further contract Kimber to manufacture production rifles
chambered for all the Imperial Magnums. Before production could begin,
Kimber went into receivership. NASS continued cartridge development but
marketing plans went on hold until 1991.
To gauge dealer interest, RCCM publicly displayed the .311 magnum
cartridges and a rifle for the first time in January of 1991 at the Dallas TX
"Shot Show". Enthusiastic dealer response convinced RCCM to formally
announce its intention to produce a full line of Imperial Magnum rifles and
cartridges. Negotiations between RCCM and Aubrey White resulted in
NASS developing the 7mm, .300, .311, .338 and .360 Imperial Magnum
cartridges. RCCM and Aubrey White formed an RCCM subsidiary
company call the "Imperial Magnum Corporation" (IMC). !MC was
licensed to use the Imperial trademark to market Imperial Magnum
cartridge cases and rifles. In 1993 Sako of Finland was subcontracted to
produce barreled actions which were fitted with McMillan or Pacific
Research stocks by !MC. Sako manufactured one prototype and one
production run of 85 Imperial Magnum barreled actions .
Page Three
The following are the Sako production figures of Imperial Magnum rifles;
7mm Imperial Magnum Serial No's IM 000001 to IM 000025
.300 Imperial Magnum Serial No's IM 100001 to IM 100015
.311 Imperial Magnum Serial No's IM 200001 to IM 200012
.338 Imperial Magnum Serial No's IM 300001 to IM 300013
.360 Imperial Magnum Serial No's IM 400001 to IM 400020
.360 Imperial Magnum Serial No. IM 000000 (Prototype)
"Cavim" of Venezuela manufactured the cartridge cases using USA brass
cups from Olin. IMC never produced loaded ammunition. Customers
loaded their own using IMC cases, RCBS loading dies and loading data
developed and supplied by IMC.
IMC began marketing rifles and cartridge cases in 1993. Unfortunately a
combination of subcontractor problems with the cartridge cases and
financial difficulties experienced by a major shareholder forced IMC to
cease operations in 1995. Customers were very pleased with both cartridge
performance and rifles. Some complaints were received concerning soft
brass cartridge cases but no rifle was ever returned for any reason.
Many "Wildcat" cartridges have been hand formed from .404 brass over the
years but the Imperial Magnums were the first with commercial cartridge
cases and rifles. The large capacity beltless design has been an
overwhelming commercial success but unfortunately not for the originators.
Winchester and Remington have introduced at least eight new beltless
magnums since !MC stopped production. Dakota Arms cartridges use only
the beltless design and John Lazzeroni used the concept to develop his full
line of rifles and cartridges. A total of thirty new non-belted magnum
cartridges have been introduced to the market place. Only Weatherby
continues to develop new cartridges with the outdated belted case.
Aubrey G. White
Box 306, Osoyoos, B.C. VOH 1VO
Phone 250-495-3581 Fax 250-495-3131
E-mail ritle@otvcablelan.net
I
IN CANADA: ro. Box 306, Osoyoos, tic. VOH IVO
IN THE USA: eo. Box 249, Oroville, WA. 98844
Telephone (604) 495-3131 Fax (604) 495-2816