NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 04/03/04 07:50 PM |
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.375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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Th old argument. What is a big bore?
Many say the .375 is actually a medium bore. The only reason it is called a "big bore" is that it is the minimum that can be used to hunt DG in some African countries. Minimum being a key word.
Is it just adequate to do the job or more than adequate?
Compared to a .30-06 it is a big bore but is it if stood beside a .450 or a .500?
Comments please.
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 04/03/04 10:59 PM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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375 is a medium bore IMO.
For me big bores START with 400 cal, 400 grain bullet and 4000 ft lbs energy!
| cchunter |
| (.375 member) |
| 04/03/04 11:38 PM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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For me it became a medium bore about a month ago. Big bores start at 470....
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 05/03/04 12:34 AM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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In reply to:
Big bores start at 470....
You're probably right with that!
| mikeh416Rigby |
| (.450 member) |
| 05/03/04 01:27 PM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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In his book about Safari Rifles, Craig Boddington refers to the .375 H&H as a medium.
| luv2safari |
| (.400 member) |
| 05/03/04 01:33 PM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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I think that the 375 is in a catagory and class all by itself.
With the good new 350s for it, it starts to push upward.IMHO 
| ThomasEdwards |
| (.300 member) |
| 05/03/04 05:11 PM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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...the immortal words of pondoro taylor...
...previous post eleswhere:
john 'pondoro' taylor, a transplanted english irishman who somewhat defined the golden age of safari in the waning days of empire [phase one], defines 'big bore' as follows in his seminal book, 'african rifles and cartridges' (safari press, reprint 1994):
"LARGE BORE. A rifle the caliber of which is not less than .450".
"LARGE MEDIUM BORE. A rifle the caliber of which is not less than .400" nor greater than .440" (11.2mm).
"MEDIUM BORE. A rifle the caliber of which is not less than .318" nor greater than .375".
"SMALL BORE. A rifle the caliber of which is less than .318".
"MINIATURE. A rifle the M.E. of which is less than 1,500 ft. lbs.
"MAGNUM. A rifle the M.V. of which is not less than 2,500 f.s.
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 05/03/04 05:42 PM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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Works for me.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 05/03/04 06:23 PM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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In reply to:
"LARGE BORE. A rifle the caliber of which is not less than .450".
That's my definition ( I knew there was some reason I bought a .450
), but in these times for practical purposes a big bore starts at .375.Ask any deerhunter, what is a big bore and 95% of them will say the .375 H&H.
| ThomasEdwards |
| (.300 member) |
| 05/03/04 06:32 PM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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...i guess everything is relative...
| luv2safari |
| (.400 member) |
| 06/03/04 03:22 AM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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Many North American Nimrods consider the 338 a "big bore"...
I think these guys also lie to their girl friends about their other "big bores"...
| mikeh416Rigby |
| (.450 member) |
| 06/03/04 03:33 AM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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Once you can drop a ping pong ball down the barrel it's starting to get interesting.
| 475Guy |
| (.400 member) |
| 06/03/04 04:01 AM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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You know, some of these 30 mag shooters consider the 375 a big bore and shudder at the thought of the 375 recoil. Say What! These guys were giving me hell about taking 375 Elk hunting and bitching about too much gun, blow up the elk, etc. What cracks me up is that they're getting beat up more with their 8# rifles and max loads.
| WyoJoe |
| (.300 member) |
| 06/03/04 04:30 AM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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I am one of those .300 mag shooters. I use a .300 H&H. I had the distinct pleasure of developing loads for my brother's .375. Off the bench it was a bit uncomfortable but hunting with it was a different story (didn't even notice the recoil). I had a 235 gr Barnes X loaded over a healthy dose of IMR 4350. I took a little muley buck with this combination. It was awesome and did not destroy as much meat as my .300 does with the Nosler BT. I am storing his guns while he is stationed in Hawaii. He said a friend of his was going elk hunting in Colorado and to loan him the gun. It told him that wasn't going to happen, the .375 is mine to use for elk this season. I love it.
| 475Guy |
| (.400 member) |
| 06/03/04 05:15 AM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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Kool!! Another convert. To me, the H&H is one of the softest recoiling bigger calibers out there. When I finally get ready to reload again, I'm going to get a bunch of Bridgers and Northforks to try out. Maybe some Grooves also.
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 06/03/04 05:59 AM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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It's a penis envey thang!
| safari_hunter |
| (.224 member) |
| 07/03/04 01:19 AM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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How many "big bores" shoot as flat as a 30-06? This is why the .375 is the most versatile of the big bores. It has very managable recoil and can be used to drop an elephant at 20 yards and hit a warthog at 250+ yards. Try doing that with a 700 Nitro.
| thefinegunmaker |
| (.224 member) |
| 08/03/04 07:08 AM |
Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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Anyone use this great "little" .375 bullet with a .338/458 case? Looking at load data and considering the massive availability of standard actions it would seem like a ballistic "twin" of the world famous .375 H&H with a much shorter bolt throw. With factory cases based on the 458 brass starting at .264 and running through 7MM, .338, and .458, why didn't they finish the lineup? It just makes sense if they would have offered more ammo variety(as they are now) the manufacturers would sell more rifles without having to create a new basic case. Why didn't the larger gun companies offer this 2.500" case with the .375 and .416? Have there been problems on safari with these medium bore magnum wildcats?
gunmaker
| 475Guy |
| (.400 member) |
| 08/03/04 09:33 AM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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It would seem to me that short cases in the slightly bigger bores don't have enough case capacity to launch the proper weight bullet at the proper velocity.
| thefinegunmaker |
| (.224 member) |
| 08/03/04 11:44 AM |
Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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475 guy
My only personal big bore pushes a.475" dia. 400gr wheel weight at 1500+ FPS and has a special 5 shot rotary magazine, so I can't speak with experience about working up any loads with any .375. I do think the 375 H&H is personal favorite of hunters around the world and rightly so.
But...speaking purely from other peoples research here...
375 H&H case holds about 96 grains of water and pushes a 270 gr @ 2700fps and 300gr @ 2600fps
375/338 (375Taylor) case holds around 88 grains of water and pushes a 270gr@2700+fps and 300gr@2600fps
9.3x64(a round most people that have posted here seem to think is very real, me included) case holds 87grains of water and pushes a 270grain @2700++fps
416Taylor case holds 93.6 grains of water and pushes a 400gr @ 2400fps
416Rigby case holds 132.5 grains of water and pushes a 400gr @ 2400fps
I know somebody's gonna show up here on this thread and tell us about his personal cement truck that has been modified to fill his Weatherby cases with volumes of powder so colossal that he measures it yards.
Seriously, I am only relaying info here that others tested, but it just seems like a few good rounds never made it into that "factory" box of ammo. I did find some info about these wildcats at 416 Taylor Page
I've got a few 09 Mausers just laying around and allways toyed with the idea of building a 375 and 416 Taylor. After finding this message board I'm starting to take interest in the 9.3 rounds that others here have recommended. Maybe I need another action.
gunmaker
http://users.elknet.net/chico
| 475Guy |
| (.400 member) |
| 08/03/04 01:29 PM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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Most of what you allude to is true. I just think the platform sends bullets downrange at max pressures and compressed loads. When I was first reloading my first 375 years ago, I could never come close to the max loads listed in the manual I used. One powder that comes to mind is 4350, whatever was listed was way too much to squeeze in the case without compressing the hell out of it. I stopped trying getting max loads out of my 375 H&H's and if I wanted extra velocity without the over compression, I have my 375 Ultra conversion. It gave me a little more boiler room to play with.
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 08/03/04 02:46 PM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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Finegunmaker,
I used the 375 Chatfield/Taylor for a time, which is what your talking about and it will duplicate the 375 H&H, but I see absolutly no advantage to owning a wildcat over a standard caliber..375 brass is easily available, cheap, and has a proper head stamp which may be needed if you travel out of the USA. Then what if you get seperated from your ammo or run out in some far corner of the earth, you can always find a box of 375s....
| thefinegunmaker |
| (.224 member) |
| 08/03/04 04:05 PM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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Ray
Did you use your 375 Taylor in the U.S. or across the pond? As I stated eariler, I don't have any med/big bore rifles in my home made collection, and my elk rifle is a 30/338 Mag I built on an 09 Arg. Mauser. My 475 has a 5 1/2" barrel and I'm not that good with it at long range. I kind of like building wildcats for my own use because they don't sell as well. I get to keep them longer. The standard actions work so well for the short mag round and I don't personally like the huge amount of metal that Rem, Win, Mauser, Dakota, and many others remove to fit a 375 in a standard action. If you look at the feed ramp on a 375 length action, it's VERY short and looks weak to me. Maybe the 9.3x64 would be a better choice for me if I get the chance to cross the big pond. I do want to build a true magnum length 375 H&H someday but I want to use an action like an Enfield that has a reasonable (to me) feed ramp. For now I've got too many Mausers just itchin to throw some bigger lead. I really thought I had my mind set on the 375 and 416 Taylor, but since reading many of the posts on this board, that 9.3 keeps coming up. Then... I followed someone's link to the line of Hawk cartridges and can't get those out of my head either. They sound like great elk medicine in a 375 lead slinger. They say they'll push a 270 gr @ 2550 fps. Sounds like fun to me!
Too many great rounds out there......Too little time!
gunmaker
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 08/03/04 08:06 PM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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I would think a 416 Taylor with a 400 gr at 2400 fps is a bit optimistic. Might be done, I'm sure someone will say theirs does, but a Rigby and Taylor givng the same velocity isn't logical.
Maybe 2150 fps with the Taylor? Still equals the old 450/400's.
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 09/03/04 04:20 AM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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NitroX,
It is no problem getting 2350 FPS out of a 416 Taylor, none what so ever in fact that is considered the standard load and is listed in most reloading recommendations, but I have never been able to safely conjur up 2400 unless I used a 26" barrel...
I have built many a 416 and 375 Chatfield Taylor and all the 416s would easily go 2350 and that's where they belong. All the 375 duplicated the 375 H&H,..I have no doubt one could get 2400 out of the 416 Taylor, but it would be a very warm load and not condusive to good reloading practice or warm climates perhaps.
I see no reason to own a Taylor anymore, not since the 416 Rem came out, same action, and the factory round is better....
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 11/03/04 05:02 AM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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Finegunmaker,
I think your making too much out of the opening up of a Mauser or particularly a M-70 (it is 375 Length to start with)and its been done like that for several decades without even a hint of a problem, only a few that theroize on such...
That aside the 9.3x64 is one of the most overlooked rounds in the modern world...It is simply the best all around cartridge ever designed...
It will send a 320 gr. Woodleigh down the hall at 2500 FPS, or a 285 gr. bullet at 2700 or a 250 gr. at darn near 3000 all with good handloads and a 26" barrel..hard to beat that...Its only draw back has been brass availability but now Huntingtons is handleing Horneber and its the best...also 9.3x64 brass can be had by turning off the belt of a 338....
A lot can also be said about the 9.3x62.. With a long tube its a wonder gun...
| thefinegunmaker |
| (.224 member) |
| 11/03/04 06:58 AM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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Ray
I agree with you that I am making a big deal out of too little material behind the lug. It's just my personal take, excusing my affinity for the SHORT magnum and it's fantastic efficiency when used on a .308 bullet and larger. As a former student of the school that Ackley started, I have become a real fan of his simple truth relating to overbore and efficient cartridges. In his two reloading books he constantly slams the overbore cartridges and praises the more efficiently sized or improved rounds. After all this his answer to "what would your one gun be?" if limited to only one was the 220 swift. A little overbore??
Most of my M70 experience is with the Dakota 76. The short mag, 06, and 375long mag are all the same action length. The only difference was the length and width of the magazine cutout. The short mag Dak76 cutout matches my pre64 m70 action that was origionally 270 win. The mag box on my old win has vertical "flutes" that hold the 06 cases closer together. The Dakota 76 uses the Mauser width mag box for 06 rounds. I have not seen a pre64 short magnum M70, but I assume it is exactly the same action as my pre64 270 with a larger boltface and smooth sides on the mag box. I am under the assumption that the 375 length pre 64 is the same as Dakota's with the very short feed ramp and narrower feed rails than the short mag.
The 9.3x64 has caught my eye recently because of it's short mag size and impressive ballistics. Do you know who makes barrels for this size? It's too bad the 35 Newton never caught on, another awsome short mag without the useless belt. It would have been a great case for a 375 or 416 bullet for thinning the prarie dog heards!
gunmaker
http://users.elknet.net/chico
| unspellable |
| (.300 member) |
| 15/03/04 04:30 AM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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A much unsung advantage to the standard 375 H&H is that the tapered shoulder works well with light loads. I use it for rabbits! A 270 grain cast bullet at 1300 fps that is quite accurate, drills a neat hole and doesn't spoil the meat. The newer super duper blown out and improved sharp shouldered cases do not like such light loads.
Know think about this for a minute. If you are used to going out and getting rabbits with a 375, you'll probaby manage to hit that buffalo with it.
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 16/03/04 05:43 AM |
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Re: .375, the medium bore shooter's Big bore
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Finegunmaker,
Lother Walther makes the best barrels I have used to date and they make a 9.3 barrel with a 1x14 twist and that is the best for 250 to 320 gr. bullets....
A Mauser or M-70 can be opened in the rear and require less than a hundred thousands removal of the front feed ramp, not thats not going to hurt a thing, and you can remove that much metal with your fingernail
But I have to keep in mind that I travel a lot and cannot have a improperly marked case that does not coincide with the caliber of my rifle..I just prefer to not deal with problems like that, be they real or rumored...