You are correct I should have worded my post in a simpler way. It got cluttered up and for that I am sorry. And I never intended to stir up a shitstorm, again I apolagize. And I love double rifles and classic calibers, I just cant figure out why there is so much bias against the 45-70. To whoever said that there was a reason Garrett chose newsprint for a testin media all I can say is: 1. Randy Garrett didnt perform that test, John Taffin did and if you havnt heard of him you must live in a cave somewhere. 2. Wet newsprint (as far as Im aware) is the standard test media for this kind of thing. Just because supposed "better" cartridges were outperformed should not make people get bitter. I would take a 500NE over a 45-70 anyday but that didnt change the fact that the 45-70 out penetrated it. And comparing a 45-70 to a 22 lr is just ridicilous and takes this way out of context. Hell an elephant could be killed with a big rock pushed off a cliff! Besides elephant are not the only DG out there. As for a 45-70s penetration through newsprint not being comparable to penetration through elephant skulls, obviously my post was too long and boring for you to read the account of a garrett passing clean through the skull. I know the post was long and boring but damn it was in the first few lines! ANyways I am done talking about this. Some of you are WAY too biased to gather info from and besides I am beginning to think I may know more than some of you anyways. Thanks just the same.