Perfectly stated, Nitro.

I was not aware of ".45-70 Wars" till informed of their existence in this thread {and a PM sent by a member}.

I do not understand why some want to suppress the investigation of improved loadings of any cartridge, so the blowup over .45-70 experimental or other heavy loads really left me confused.

Having said that, I have never said, and still won't say, that the .45-70 is a .458 Lott, or is comparable to it merely because they share the same groove depth. For example, a .30-30 is a fine cartridge for some purposes but it is no .300 Winchester Mag. Having said that, it would seem ridiculous to condemn the desire to improve the .30-30.

As for the .45-70 itself, where does it fall performance-wise?

Based on my use on game and in test media of the .45-70 and .375 H&H Magnum, with expanding bullets {I do not need or use FMJ's and can't comment on them} and using top loads in both, they appear equals at close range. So maybe there is a tiny bit of "disagreement" with you? If the PH says go ahead and use softs, I don't see why the use of a 9.3x74R, 9.3x62 or .375 H&H Mag on buffalo would be normal and the use of the .45-70 would be a "stunt", though backup with all of them is generally assumed. Use of the .45-70 would thus not be a stunt, but not a cartridge to use without backup, either. Onviously the .45-70 is not a versatile cartridge like the .375 H&H is, but for close range shooting, it is no .32-20, either...

And with proper solids, maybe they too make the .45-70 the equal of the 9.3's and .375 up close, that I do not know as I haven't tested solids in the .45-70. The famed Wally Johnson used a .375 throughout his career, so maybe the argument should be "Is a heavy .45-70 as good up close as the .375 H&H?", not "Is it as good as the .458?"

Honestly, I thought this post was being handled well, without hyperbolic worship of the silly cartridge, till it was condemned wholesale. Your post here is very helpful.

Maybe I am wrong, but I see a forum such as you have here as a place where experimentation and investigation and subsequent discussion can flourish, and where unknowns can be discussed based on the knowns. If a fellow says "I don't think that will work, based on my experience with this" I listen up. But when a fellow says "It's no good but I haven't used it" I get bored with such a forum fast. They are a dime a dozen...

On that last note, and NOT particularly applying to this thread, for some time I thought this place was different than some others. But there appears to be a member or two who though very knowledgeable in some areas, constantly enters threads by belittling and denigrating others and by acting totally belligerently. Interestingly enough, such belligerence appears to frequently involve areas of weakness. I myself enjoy a debate but it is becoming more and more obvious to me over time as I read many posts {lots of which I do not even enter} that this like other forums, seemingly has its protected Sacred Cows and Heroes and since constant belligerence from any member makes for boring reading to me, it is easy to drift away, which is I suspect the normal way of things.

Thanks for your excellent summation here. You always have a valuable word to add.