NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 21/06/20 10:06 PM |
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Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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I remember seeing this rifle many decades ago. And that the German Army was to adopt this "Star Wars" rifle as their standard.
Then it disappeared?
This video reveals why. And that the rifle was actually accepted for issue to the entire Bundeswehr (splg?).
Very interesting video.
If militaries one day adopt such a caseless rifle, I will still be shooting 1900 era doubles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGKcvM2Hh4g
Kraut Space Magic: the H&K G11
4,534,237 views•25 Dec 2018
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I have been waiting for a long time to have a chance to make this video - the Heckler & Koch G11! Specifically, a G11K2, the final version approved for use by the West German Bundeswehr, before being cancelled for political and economic reasons.
The G11 was a combined effort by H&K and Dynamit Nobel to produce a new rifle for the German military with truly new technology. The core of the system was the use of a caseless cartridge developed in the late 60s and early 70s by Dynamit Nobel, which then allowed H&K to design a magnificently complex action which could fire three rounds in a hyper-fast (~2000 rpm) burst and have all three bullets leave the barrel before the weapon moved in recoil.
Remarkably, the idea went through enough development to pass German trials and actually be accepted for service in the late 1980s (after a funding shutdown when it proved incapable of winning NATO cartridge selection trials a decade earlier). However, the reunification with East Germany presented a reduced strategic threat, a new surplus of East German combat rifles (AK74s), and a huge new economic burden to the combined nations and this led to the cancellation of the program. The US Advanced Combat Rifle program gave the G11 one last grasp at a future, but it was not deemed a sufficient improvement in practical use over the M16 platform to justify a replacement of all US weapons in service.
The G11 lives on, however, as an icon of German engineering prowess often referred to as "Kraut Space Magic" (in an entirely complimentary take on the old pejorative). That it could be so complex and yet still run reliably in legitimate military trials is a tremendous feat by H&K's design engineers, and yet one must consider that the Bundeswehr may just have dodged a bullet when it ended up not actually adopting the rifle.
Many thanks to H&K USA for giving me access to the G11 rifles in their Grey Room for this video!
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 21/06/20 10:08 PM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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To see one actually fired.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH9iUXVbEDA
Interesting to see the various modern auto rifles and light machine guns fired. The HK G11 is in there down the list.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 21/06/20 10:13 PM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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I wonder how the barrel is removed?
I presume it does need to be removed for cleaning? Even though "chamber" cleaning is covered in the video.
How well does the plastic rifle stand up to using it to club some close quarters Taliban? No bayonet either?
I wonder how often modern soldiers use their bayonets?
***
Interesting to watch all these rifles and LMGs fire. And which ones are not easily held under fire. The Brit crap rifle is one of the worst. The G11 does not fair well either. One of the HKs at the beginning was very smooth.
Interesting the FN FAL in 7.62 was controlled well by the shooter in full auto.
| DarylS |
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| 22/06/20 12:00 AM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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Found the firing very interesting. The G11 was definitely not running at 2,000rpm, more like 600-800 seemed to me.
I also found the FN FAL quite interesting, considering it is a 7.62x51.
| jgrabow |
| (.300 member) |
| 22/06/20 01:07 AM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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a lot of smoke from the G11. I would think that much smoke would give your position away.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 22/06/20 04:10 AM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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Quote:
Found the firing very interesting. The G11 was definitely not running at 2,000rpm, more like 600-800 seemed to me.
I also found the FN FAL quite interesting, considering it is a 7.62x51.
Explained in the first video.
3 shot bursts at 2000 rpm. 3 rounds fired before the bolt/action/barrel is fully to the rear.
600 rpm full auto. One round fired each recoil movement.
| DarylS |
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| 22/06/20 10:02 AM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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I missed the 600 at full auto.
| eagle27 |
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| 22/06/20 05:41 PM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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Quote:
I wonder how often modern soldiers use their bayonets?
The modern soldier wouldn't get far enough away from their coke and coffee machines to ever use a bayonet
| Marrakai |
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| 22/06/20 07:57 PM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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I believe Australia's last fair dinkum bayonet charge was at Kapyong, although bayonets have been fixed many times since, notably at Long Tan.
Interesting divergence:
Just as well, caseless ammo is a bloody boring topic for serious reloaders like most of the cognoscenti here!
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 22/06/20 09:32 PM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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Quote:
The modern soldier wouldn't get far enough away from their coke and coffee machines to ever use a bayonet
Imagine the fear of one today, they might spill their coffee or coke if on the receiving end.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 22/06/20 10:20 PM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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I know the last time the Aussie military looked at a rifle, they insisted on it being able to mount a bayonet. On the awful Steyr AUG or Aussteyr.
I thought that wasn't very controllable under auto fire in the video as well.
The shooter was able to control full auto fire in an FN FAL though.
I was thinking what military rifles have been used in Australia. As a guess started with a Brown Bess, then a Martini Henry, maybe something in between? Snider? Then the SMLE from the Boer War to the Korean War. The SLR in Vietnam. Plus some M16s. Then the Aussteyr.
| DarylS |
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| 23/06/20 03:21 AM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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Brown Bess & Baker rifles in flintlocks, then Enfields in cap locks, then Snider, then Martini Henry, then SMLE, I would expect.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 27/06/20 04:12 PM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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it hurts, was developed with tax money than forgotten
would be the best 30 years later but build it in 6,5 mm now
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 27/06/20 04:30 PM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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The rotary bolt was something very innovative. No need for a bolt to go back and forward as nothing to eject. Instead it rotates, picks a cartridge out of the magazine vertically stacked, then rotates and inserts it into the breech. Revolutionary.
150 cartridges in a magazine. And two spare magazines each side on the rifle.
The action and its complexity look like a big negative. If anything fails in that, the rifle is useless and can't be repaired.
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I had been reading a Sci Fi series of novels. About the French Foreign Legion centuries or more in the future. The "Legion of the Damned". It is amusing the writer talks about rifles which are no more modern that what we use today. 700 years or more in the future!
I have theorised projectile firing rifles, no powder, but injecting a small amount of explosive gas or liquid as the propellant. A magazine need only hold projectiles. And a small canister of liquid or gas. The rate of fire could be tremendous. Minimal bolt movement. A rotary bolt would even be a better idea. The vertical stacked magazine seems a great solution. And no awkward magazine sticking out the bottom in the way. A pretty much sealed weapon, could be used in all sorts of environments, dust, sand, snow, moist.
Interesting to revisit the G11 after many years first seeing it.
| Rule303 |
| (.416 member) |
| 28/06/20 08:59 AM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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That is one hell of a complicated weapon. The basic concept is simple but the action has many moving parts, fine tolerances. I suspect reliability in battle field conditions would be low. Might handle mud alright as it would be hard for some thing as coarse as mud to get it...maybe. Fine sand, dust or the freezing cold of Russian winter, Artic etc would see it gum/freeze up.
| DarylS |
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| 28/06/20 12:49 PM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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Ahh. Bullshit. But sounds good LOL
| Rule303 |
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| 29/06/20 07:38 AM |
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Re: Something very different Space Age HK G11 caseless ammo
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Quote:
Ahh. Bullshit. But sounds good LOL
Yeah, nah. It has to many moving parts in the action. Fine dust, sand, moisture will get in there and slow it down/cause stoppages and a bastard to clean that action properly esp in field. Compare its mechanics to an AK47, SLR, G3, M60, Mag 58, Steyr Aug, M16, M14, Bren Gun, etc. I still believe that in battle field conditions it would be unreliable compared to those others.