NitroX
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| 07/12/04 02:00 AM |
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Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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A discussion.
Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for water buffalo?
A friend wishes to use one, his "new" rifle. I will say more, but what are your thoughts?
| ALAN_MCKENZIE |
| (.400 member) |
| 07/12/04 02:10 AM |
Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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I would NOT recomend that calibre on anything bigger than fallow or chital or pigs.
Good calibre however definately not a NT buff calibre.
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 07/12/04 11:16 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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In reply to:
Good calibre however definately not a NT buff calibre.
I totally agree.
Nitro,
It could be done, under ideal circumstances.
Professional backup with a heavy cal rifle would be paramount and the animal would have to present a perfect position for the shot.
The hunter would need to understand that he may never get a chance at an animal in the perfect position and that there is a very real chance that even if he does, the PH will most likely have to shoot the animal as well.
| mickey |
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| 07/12/04 01:52 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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I disagree. I think, that in the hands of good shooter, it would be adequate. I have never shot a Buffalo with one but I have shot a couple with a .303 and .308. I have shot an Alaskan Moose with my 1903 with no problems. The penitration with the long bullet is outstanding and should be fine.
As with all smaller calibers, shot placement is more critical but it is always critical anyway.
There is nothing wrong with hunting with an older caliber.
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NitroX
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| 07/12/04 02:43 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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I will elaborate a little more on the details.
He has already shot many buffalo with a .270, from his accounts twenty to thirty buffalo and not from the back of a Landcruiser either. Knows their anatomy well.
Wanted to shoot a lion and buffalo (and a elephant) with the .270 but wasn't permitted in Zimbabwe but shot everything else with it including eland.
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 07/12/04 04:33 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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In reply to:
I disagree. I think, that in the hands of good shooter, it would be adequate.
Mick,
Not sure what you're disagreeing with.
To answer the original question which was..
Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for water buffalo?
No one in their right mind would recommend the 6.5 x 54 as being "fully up to the task" for asian buffalo hunting in all conditions.
Sure it can kill buffalo and so can plenty of other small cartridges.
If by "adequate" you mean "capable of", well yeah it is.
On the other hand if by "adequate" you mean that it is "fully sufficient", sorry but I don't think so.
| mickey |
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| 07/12/04 04:43 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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4seventy
Symantics. To me you are describing appropriate. To me adequate means 'will it work most of the time'.
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 07/12/04 05:04 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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In reply to:
To me adequate means 'will it work most of the time'.
I've had a few clients who had rifles like that (work most of the time) and I didn't think those guns were really "adequate" for much of anything!
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NitroX
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| 07/12/04 07:14 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Not a good choice of words - "adequate".
Perhaps should have been "adequate in the hands of a good shot in reasonable circumstances".
| ALAN_MCKENZIE |
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| 07/12/04 09:57 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Only a fool would consider himself well armed if he was hunting water buffalo with a 6.5 X 54!!!!!!!!!!
| mickey |
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| 08/12/04 02:38 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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ALAN_MCKENZIE
I think you need more experiance with the 6.5 and long, heavy for caliber bullets. The penitration will astound you.
If I had a choice between going Buff hunting with a 375 or a 6.5 I would take the 375. A no brainer.
If I could only take the 6.5 or not go hunting we are on our way. I have confidence, from past experiance, that it can do the job.
Adequately.
4seventy
My is truck is 'adequate' under your definition. It also works, 'most of the time'.
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 08/12/04 09:45 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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In reply to:
Perhaps should have been "adequate in the hands of a good shot in reasonable circumstances".
Add to the above, "with ADEQUATE backup" and the answer would be sure, go for it!
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NitroX
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| 08/12/04 09:50 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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I think the experience of shooting 2o to 30 buffalo with a .270 may account for something in terms of experience. "A fool" who has done it 20 or 30 times ? Who else here can say they have shot 30 buffalo?
I'm sure lots of cape buffalo could be taken with medium sized calibres if legally permissable. The main problem would be sorting out the chaff from the grain when it came to whom could actually do it.
***
My own preference is I would take my .375 or .450 - why not?
| ALAN_MCKENZIE |
| (.400 member) |
| 08/12/04 01:24 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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I've owned and used a 6.5 X 55 carl G for better than 20 years.
I know what it is capable of.
I shot a rougue buff 30 years ago with a 243 using 85gn bthp projectiles.
Mind you I shot it from a vehicle so had plenty of protection just in case things went wrong.
Buff have been shot with 22rimfires,22hornets ,222rem,243,ect ect
Therefor in your opinion MICKEY the above are suitable for Aussie buff.
JOHN,the recomended mimimum weight & calibre for buff is 375 cal and 250 gn projectiles.
A 270 falls a long way short of that.
I would like to see your mate out on the flood plain,no backup with a badly shot buff on the prod,armed with his trusty 270 buffalo rifle.
The dingo's would probably clean up what was left.
I've shot 15 buff,hundreds of scrub bulls,100's of tons of donkey ,horse,camel,goats ect ect.
YOUR QUESTION SHOULD HAVE BEEN:-
IS A 6.5 X 54 considered suitable for water buffalo ?
" NO IT IS NOT"
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NitroX
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| 08/12/04 01:51 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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In reply to:
JOHN,the recomended mimimum weight & calibre for buff is 375 cal and 250 gn projectiles.
A 270 falls a long way short of that.
I would like to see your mate out on the flood plain,no backup with a badly shot buff on the prod,armed with his trusty 270 buffalo rifle.
The dingo's would probably clean up what was left.
As I said before, 20 to 30 buffalo to date to his .270. Granted these were the good old days when you might be lucky and told "to shoot anything that moves in the back paddock" (read many hundreds of square kilometres).
On the flood plains.
No back-up.
No dingoes required.
Nowadays the outfitters make the 'recommendation' which is fine by me.
I would have thought 160 gr projectiles in a 6.5mm would have performance above a .270 .
| ALAN_MCKENZIE |
| (.400 member) |
| 08/12/04 01:58 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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John,you asked a question.
You got my answer !
Robert Ruark said it all :-
:USE ENOUGH GUN "
| mickey |
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| 08/12/04 03:51 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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In reply to:
I shot a rougue buff 30 years ago with a 243 using 85gn bthp projectiles.
Mind you I shot it from a vehicle so had plenty of protection just in case things went wrong.
Buff have been shot with 22rimfires,22hornets ,222rem,243,ect ect
Therefor in your opinion MICKEY the above are suitable for Aussie buff.
Sorry? I thought we were talking about a 6.5 with a 160 grain roundnose? Have you had a problem with them in your Swede? I have found them to be capable of penitrating a Moose end to end. The 6.5x54 was quite popular in Alaska and N. Canada for Polar Bear.
| ALAN_MCKENZIE |
| (.400 member) |
| 08/12/04 09:01 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Micky,the longer this thread goes along,the more is being written in to it.
Where did the 160 gn projectiles come into the original question.
Have you ever hunted water buffalo and if the answer is YES then I'll bet it was'nt with a 6.5 x 54.
The only reason I mentioned shooting a buff with a 243 was to emphersize that it can be done HOWEVER I would not recomend it as a buff rifle like you are with a 6.5x54.
Forest Gump said it all:-
STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES !!
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NitroX
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| 08/12/04 10:19 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Well we are talking about a 6.5x54mm with a bullet weight range of from 85 grns to 160 grns. Of course the 160 gr bullet would be relevant.
The original post was started as a discussion topic. For discussion. It can go where it will. This is no right or wrong answers. I was never looking for a definitive answer.
I am sure my friend can use a 6.5x54mm adequately on buffalo given the right placement opportunity. If this does not occur and a shot can't be taken, his loss. 20 to 30 buffalos with a .270 isn't a bad base to work upon.
Whether it is an 'adequate' rifle for all situations and for all hunters is also almost certainly NO. As said I myself would choose a .375 or .450 probably at least for my first 10 or more buffalos
.| Marrakai |
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| 05/01/05 12:10 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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As one who has hunted buffalo with the 1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer, both successfully and unsuccessfully, I must point out that the 6.5x54 is a wonderful killer and always out-performs its terminal ballistics on game with the 160-grainer, however I concur that the cartridge has NO margin for error on buff and therefore cannot be recommended.
Hit in a vital spot, the biggest bull will soon topple, however many years ago, a young bull which failed to drop to the shot was tracked for about 2 kms till the blood-trail ran out, and another km or so till his tracks met up with the rest of the herd. No doubt he's still wandering around out there somewhere. There was a bit of long grass, maybe the bullet deflected slightly, but I'm making excuses....
Nowadays, I prefer to hit 'em fairly hard!
| tunofun |
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| 15/05/05 11:52 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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I am jumping into this post a little late it seems, but I will post none-the-less.
I have a REM 700 that was a .284WIN that is away getting a new barrel for it, a 6.5/284. The idea behind it is to be able to really reach out and touch pigs over the floodplains (and get back into the fly shoot at the range). I had thought that if a buffalo presented itself would I shoot it with this cartridge? I don't think that I would as I could not guarantee it would be mortally wounded if a typical shot was made on the chest or shoulders. However, a shot placed to the neck or spine would certainly do the job and allow a finisher if required. Even though this rifle will (hopefully) be a less than 0.5 MOA rifle, would you trust it enough over 400+ meters to hit a large live target well? Pigs will be no probs but a buff? I don't know...
Anybody have experiences with spine shooting a buffalo?
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NitroX
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| 15/05/05 03:13 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Marrakai and tunoffun
Thanks for your comments.
Marrakai - I knew you had used your 6.5 on buffalo and it was good to hear your experiences and thoughts. Also now why you like your .577, .470 or .400.
I think my original question should not have stated "adequate" but instead "capable". Of course it is capable but is far from ideal. Hopefully we will be able to report back our positive experiences and stories in the near future.
| mickey |
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| 15/05/05 07:57 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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In reply to:
I think my original question should not have stated "adequate" but instead "capable". Of course it is capable but is far from ideal. Hopefully we will be able to report back our positive experiences and stories in the near future.
Shoot, negative experiances have value also.
| 500Nitro |
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| 17/05/05 07:00 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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NitroX,
I hate to say it but IMHO, using a 6.5 x 54 on Water Buffalo is irresponsible
and disrepectful to the game. I also think it's irresponsible.
Yes it can kill them, yes it has the penetration but it doesn't have any shock value.
If it's wounded and gets away .......
Of course the160 gr bullet would be relevant." I have seen Buff shot with 6.5's
but by someone who has shot thousands. All were close in, head shots behind the ear
on undisturbed smaller buffalo.
Even if someone has shot 30 with a .270, it doesn't mean we then recommend the next smallest
calibre - where does it stop.
Even contemplating it makes me cringe and I can't think of a RESPONSIBLE PH in this'
country that I know that would take a client out with a 6.5 on Buff, regardless of what he is
using as back up.
Just my HO but one I feel strongly about.
500 Nitro
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NitroX
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| 18/05/05 12:39 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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500grains
Hopefully we won't be using a "PH" as it is intended to hunt self-guided.
I'm not doing it, a friend wishes to do so.
As he has done it enough times with a .270 I don't see a problem.
Have to still book this hunt.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 18/05/05 07:56 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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NitroX,
I realise it is your friend who wishes to use a 6.5 and not you..
Just because he has done it enough times with a .270, doesn't mean
the next one is the same as the previous 30.
Also, the difference between a BIG 1 Ton, 18 year old Monolith bristling
with muscles is huge compared with and a 10 year old Buff still to develop
that big neck and shoulder area.
Self-guided - can be fun but I hope you have plenty of back up and
don't lose the game.
Anyway, have a good hunt - when you book it.
500 Nitro
| ALAN_MCKENZIE |
| (.400 member) |
| 18/05/05 10:18 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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John ,allow me to register my dissapointment that you condone your mate using a 6.5 on buff ..
That is exactly the sort of thing that brings ethical hunters into disrepute.
Alan McKenzie
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NitroX
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| 19/05/05 01:20 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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We will just have to let the photos and maybe video tell the story.
If I don't get my arse into gear and book the place all this will just be hot air.
| ALAN_MCKENZIE |
| (.400 member) |
| 19/05/05 05:54 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? *DELETED*
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Post deleted by ALAN_MCKENZIE
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NitroX
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| 19/05/05 06:23 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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My opinion has never changed. If someone asks me I say "most people recommend a .375 or more".
However whom I am I to demand a guy who has shot thirty times more water buff than I, does what I say! People can make their own choices. I don't have an problem with that. In fact if he said he wanted to hunt cape buffalo with one too, if legal, I wouldn't care either.
Please give it a rest. I read your opinion already on an earlier post or two. Thanks.
| The_Professor |
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| 21/05/05 05:11 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Just a different thought on this one!
I have a wonderful 375 Weatherby on a Ruger #1 it is a 'very big' game rifle. I have used in on Water Buff once ( I know many of you do not condone single shots for DG but that is another story).
Given where I live, my access to Buff hunting and the cost, I will probably be able to justify one or two more Water Buff and perhaps a couple of Cape Buff in the rest of my life as a hunter. Given I'm pushing 50!.
I would dearly love a double. I can afford one, but I can't justify one to myself. My 375 has only fired one shot in 'anger'. I've tried it on big NT pigs and it is not efficient. 300 grain Woodlies go straight through without expanding. My 7mm Weatherby Ruger #1 is much more efficient on pigs and in reality my 30-06 bolt action is perfect.
My point is, this is a forum especially for those interested in BIG RIFLES, in the modern era we have so little opportunity to use them for what they were really designed, it seems kind of a sad waste to me to have the opportunity to hunt a big dangerous beast and then not take that rare chance to use a big rifle.
Regards,
The Professor.
PS. Anyone who has read my comments on bow hunting DG may find this idea strange. I'm sure you're right, these things are never simple or we would not enjoy the discussion.!
| mickey |
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| 22/05/05 01:37 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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I have shot Warthogs with a .577 2 3/4, Kangaroos and Goats with a 577/450 and a 470NE and balloons with an 8 Bore. Springbuck with a 9.3x74R and Blacktail Deer with a 404 Jeffery. Waiting until the right animal comes along to shoot a favourite rifle is waisting time.
In reply to:
I would dearly love a double. I can afford one, but I can't justify one to myself.
Get the Double, shoot 'Roos, Pigs, Deer, Goats, Foxes etc with it. Have fun, enjoy the rifle for what it is and hope a rich relative dies so you can go to Africa and hunt elephant.
| ORION |
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| 26/05/05 11:20 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Hi boys,
interesting reading.Nitro
ITS TIME
Waihi
Orion
| ORION |
| (.275 member) |
| 03/10/05 09:24 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Hi boys
YES YES its adequate.
As soon as John gets my pictures,he can put them up.
Waihi
Orion
| 500Nitro |
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| 03/10/05 11:08 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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I'll can't wait for the story and photos.
500 Nitro
| mlg |
| (.275 member) |
| 27/10/05 12:00 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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There is another aspect we as hunters need to consider re shooting Buff with light calibers - if blokes are going to start using lightweight calibers on buff and an increase of wounded buff become apparent (particularly if innocent locals/tourists etc get hurt as a result) it will only be a matter of time before we give the Government and animal activists reason to stop us hunting in the Northern Territory. We could (rightly) be branded as irresponsible and lousy shots. Hasn,t that already been mentioned with regard to croc hunting by a NT Minister? Think about it. Lets not give them any ammo (sic)!
Also I think that common sense must prevail with regards to caliber choice. Sure a 6.5x54/ 308/270 may get the job done but why would you, when for about 850 bucks a new Ruger in 338 Win Mag can be had and will do a much better job.
Also this brings to mind an article I read about Walter D.M. Bell who made shooting DG with light calibers so popular. The article pointed out that he was an absolute marksman and knew Elephant anatomy extremely well so he got away with shooting DG with 7x57s etc. But subsequently a lot hunters have been killed/wounded by trying the same after reading his books. Not all of us are in the same league as he was(certainly not me).
The next thing we will have fellas trying to shoot them with 243s and 223s, wsms, 204 Rugers and God knows what else. I think these forums could be put to good use to discourage the small caliber/big dick syndrome that exists amongst some
.Somone else rightly quoted Robert Ruark "USE ENOUGH GUN"
For me anyway, that would start with a 338win mag - the absolute minimum !!
| 500Nitro |
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| 27/10/05 02:58 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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mlg
Re "I think these forums could be put to good use to discourage
the small caliber/big dick syndrome that exists amongst some."
I think alot of us tried but the people concerned must have had
a good dose of Viagra !!!
As long as it made them feel good...........
500 Nitro
| ALAN_MCKENZIE |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/10/05 11:37 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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MLG,I agree with you 100%.
500, I'm sure you are right about the Viagara.
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CptCurl
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| 28/10/05 01:37 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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mlg, 500Nitro, and Alan McKenzie,
Count me in with your opinions.
Although I have never seen a water buffalo, much less shot one, I think the quarry is worthy of the hunter's best effort. I see nothing noble about trying to solve the riddle of, "What is the least force I can apply to achieve a death blow on this innocent critter I decided to shoot today?" If the object is to kill, then the ethical hunter should use a good margin of force over and above what is calculated as the minimum required. Then he can dispatch the game quickly and efficiently without needless suffering.
That's my ethics, and I don't think a 6.5x55 is proper for buffalo. Sure as hell you can kill one with it. That's not what it's all about IMO.
They slaughter beef and hogs with .22RF by putting the muzzle right behind the base of the skull (good shot placement). That doesn't mean you should hunt feral hogs or feral bovines with a .22RF does it? Yes it will kill. Yes you can argue that shot placement is the skill of the sport. NO THAT'S NOT AN ETHICAL HUNT BY MY STANDARDS.
That's my opinion. Not meant to offend.
Curl
P.S.
Twenty years ago I hunted Elk with a .30-06. In 1985 I got a shot at a bull, but the shot was a little off. The bull was well wounded, but still on the move. We tracked the blood for a mile or more. There were places where the bull had stopped and left a puddle of blood three feet in diameter in white snow. Finally the blood trail disappeared, and the elk was lost. I felt so low that I couldn't hunt for two days.
The next season I hunted (1987) I used a .375 H&H Mag. loaded with 235 grain Speer bonded bullets that were screaming! I got a shot at a nice 6x6 bull at 320 yards, and he is mine.
I didn't intentionally hunt with a light gun, and .30-06 is considered a good choice for elk. In my opinion it is a bit light. Elk are tough as hell. They are noble creatures and deserve more.
MHO
Curl
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 28/10/05 01:46 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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CptCurl,
Re Although I have never seen a water buffalo, much less shot one"
You have other experience that is valued.
But you are right all the same re the ethics.
Alan - maybe if they keep doingit long enough
the Viagra will help when they have to run like hell.
A friend of mine, Peter, had to stop a Charging Scrub Bull
that an OS client had shot multiple times with a 300 Win Mag.
If Peter hadn't stopped it, it would have flattened the client.
500 Nitro
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CptCurl
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| 29/10/05 06:32 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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500Nitro,
Do you mean I shouldn't come down to Oz and hunt buffs with my .280NE?
Damn, what a disappointment!
Curl
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 29/10/05 09:05 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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CptCurl,
Of course, as long as you bring and take your Viagra !!!
500 Nitro
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NitroX
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| 29/10/05 11:36 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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I always find the word "ethics" interesting in its theoretical application to hunting.
I much prefer the word "sporting" for hunting.
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CptCurl
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| 30/10/05 12:05 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Nitro,
From Dictionary.com
eth·ic
n.
1. (a) A set of principles of right conduct.
(b) A theory or a system of moral values: “An ethic of service is at war with a craving for gain” (Gregg Easterbrook).
2. ethics (used with a sing. verb) The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by a person; moral philosophy.
3. ethics (used with a sing. or pl. verb) The rules or standards governing the conduct of a person or the members of a profession: medical ethics.
sport·ing
adj.
1. Used in or appropriate for sports: sporting goods.
2. Characterized by sportsmanship.
3. Of or associated with gambling.
The appropriate definition under "sporting" would be the second one, "Characterized by sportsmanship."
sports·man·ship
n.
1. The fact or practice of participating in sports or a sport.
2. Conduct and attitude considered as befitting participants in sports, especially fair play, courtesy, striving spirit, and grace in losing.
Here the second definition seems to apply. That definition is clearly predicated on values or moral philosophy; hence, ethics.
It comes down to two aspects: (1) what is perceived by the collective hunting community as appropriate, and (2) what standards the individual hunter holds himself to.
I'm not posting this to be contentious. I just want to explain my thoughts in using the term "ethical" in my earlier post. Any way you analyze it, values and philosophy are the touchstones, whether it be characterized "ethics" or "sportsmanship".
Best regards,
Curl
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 30/10/05 12:16 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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To expound a bit further on my earlier post, the value or philosophy I stated is this:
"If the object is to kill, then the ethical hunter should use a good margin of force over and above what is calculated as the minimum required. Then he can dispatch the game quickly and efficiently without needless suffering."
It seems to me the debate should be first, whether this is a good standard of sportsmanship to which the individual hunter should adhere; and if so, second, whether a 6.5x54 provides that margin of power.
Curl
| mlg |
| (.275 member) |
| 01/11/05 10:24 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Cpt Curl
Well said.
I await with bated breath to see how the forum members who hunt buff with the 6.5x54 can justify that caliber as having a suitable "margin of power" on that animal.
| Marty |
| (.300 member) |
| 01/11/05 11:52 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Yeah OK.
I'll point out the Gorrila in the room, because this BS has gone on long enough.
Shifty....or Nitro needs to clarify what went on here with "The Buff and the 6.5". At least on these forums. Yes! I have heard of people shooting them with 22/250's and the like, but that is always put down to the dickhead minority.
There are stories going round Darwin, the Top End and various PH's as to what happened on this particular hunt. NONE of these stories has been clarified by ANY post on NitroXpress. Period.
Either post the photos and clear the air....... or shut up and admit that an animal was arse shot by an inappropriate calibre by a hunter who would not take that calibre out after Buff again. Granted, the hunter had his reasons for using this rifle. But in the final analysis and as the members of this forum are my jury, I see no legitimate reason for the use of this calibre over what else was available.
We have had the promise of photos and story for some time now. Nothing has been forthcoming.
Q1. Photo of the Buff please?
Q2. How many shots did it take? And where was it hit?
Q3. Was the PH happy with the final outcome?
Q4. Would the hunter use this calibre again, and would he recommend it to other hunters?
Like I say, Darwin is a small town. The hunting community is smaller. Stories have been circulating for a month or more. This site has done nothing to circumvent them. Give us the story or be prepared for someone elses version.
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NitroX
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| 02/11/05 12:12 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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In reply to:
Like I say, Darwin is a small town. The hunting community is smaller. Stories have been circulating for a month or more. This site has done nothing to circumvent them. Give us the story or be prepared for someone elses version.
Gee what a hotbed of intrigue and rumour!
Marty, can you PM me the stories, as they sound very interesting.
I will break my plan to let Martin tell the story by adding the following couple of sentences.
I haven't had time to work on the story or the photos or much else.
While I was not present at the 6.5mm kills on buffalo as I understand it, both were shot well broadside in the chest. One ran away and the PH insisted follow-up shots be fired. Which were into the rear of the buffalo and as Orion expected had no effect. The other was also shot with follow-up shots as again the PH insisted. Don't remember the details. After a while both buffalo succumbed to the initial well placed shots and died well.
Mostly a non event. I should let it drag out more so the rumours really reach mammoth proportions.
Hopefully Orion can reveal more in an entertaining way and I hope he forgives me stealing his thunder.
Anyway it is 11:40 PM and I have another couple of hours of fungicide spraying (preventative) to get in tonight before the rain and risk of mildew happens tommorrow in my vineyards. Sometimes you got to spend time where it is needed.
PS "Orion", I emailed you. I have your skulls in my sheds which Graham included with mine to the freight company. I will bring them down when I can, otherwise if you want them earlier, a trip to the Barossa might be needed. If so you can have a look at my NEW scrub bull horns and skull.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 02/11/05 12:17 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Interesting on the cow buffalo cull, when chatting to a professional bull catcher when he saw the "massive" 9.3x74R rounds he thought they were huge and said "they should only take one shot with those!"
I initially told him my Tikka double was a .410 shotgun but he immediately looked at my "culling" belt (20 rounds) (hey it actually got some use!) so was way too smart to fall for it.
I have found all big animals not brain or neck spine shot take a little while to die not matter what calibre is used.
George, the guide, as his own rifles were in NZ, not having a licence in Aust yet, used the station .303 no 1 Mk III full wood rifle as his back up rifle. It came in handy to finish off downed beasts with a shot to the brain and also in shooting at the brumbies. The only problem was we both shot the same brumby with the first shot each.
I do prefer a .375 (or a similar 9.3 mm) on buffalo myself and most guides insist on this sort of cartridge for their clients.
I may check back in when I get back in a couple of hours.
| mlg |
| (.275 member) |
| 02/11/05 12:39 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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"While I was not present at the 6.5mm kills on buffalo as I understand it, both were shot well broadside in the chest. One ran away and the PH insisted follow-up shots be fired. Which were into the rear of the buffalo and as Orion expected had no effect. The other was also shot with follow-up shots as again the PH insisted"
Hmmmm....... wonder if I dare put my foot in murky water and ask if we think what the results would have been for identically placed shots had the caliber been a :-
1. 9.3x62 or 9.3x74
2. 375 h&h
3. 416
4. 458win mag or Lott and above etc
Any thoughts??
| Marty |
| (.300 member) |
| 02/11/05 01:10 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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First and foremost let me apologise for calling Orion "Shifty". Brain fart, dont know where I got it from and I am sincererly apologetic.
In reply to:Nitro. No requirement to PM anything. Any stories will be put on the public record. But we have been waiting for donkies years for either you or Orion to post what happened on the hunt. Like I said, nothing has been posted of any substance at least as far as I have seen (and I am prepared to stand corrected.... indeed hope to be). I have seen no photo and no story and considering you are usually most prolific with both, I consider this unusual. I have heard rumour an innuendo from a couple of sources (not all from the Top End) as to what occured. You, or more particullarly Orion, have every chance to tell your story and am quite content to recieve the usual poetic licence that we all tell in a good hunting yarn. But this thread has been going on for some time and there is a story that seems to be in parralel that contradicts whats been posted on this thread. I believe you and Orion have the right to a fair go. So lets hear the story and lets see the pics. I wasnt there and I am prepared to believe the story of someone who was. But like I say, there is some scuttlebut that may need to be dispelled, if only because of lack of information by any other means.
Marty, can you PM me the stories, as they sound very interesting.
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NitroX
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| 02/11/05 02:36 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Back again. That's it for this ffffing night.
I put the basics of the results in my previous posts.
If it rains really heavily tommorrow I might get to the photos.
The unplanned short culling hunt to the NT was an interruption to a lot I had going on at the time including the stories. PS I definitely want to hear the "other story" now and also its source.
| ALAN_MCKENZIE |
| (.400 member) |
| 03/11/05 01:07 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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ITS ABOUT TIME THIS WHOLE THING WAS PUT TO BED.
Firstly let me say that I am totally against hunting buff with anything smaller than a 338,
I expressed this opinion to Nitrox and also the PH concerned.
Both buffalo were cleanly shot,however the PH has always insisted that until the animal is on the ground you keep shooting.
Previous experience has probably dictated this.
3 shots were fired at each animal,the last 2 on each animal were only followup shots.
This is what happened so let us all move on.
Alan.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 03/11/05 05:41 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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I think the phrase "Use Enough Gun" fits all categories of animals.
: I own a number of smaller calibres but when it's time to go hunting for large game, I reach for the .375 - or the .458. They've NEVER let me down. I don't like tracking, although I've much experience tracking other's mistakes.
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NitroX
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| 03/11/05 12:52 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Alan
You do realise the actual hunt was never meant to PROVE anything. It is only some members of this board who think that! My original post was to get some discussion going and see what people think. No recommendation on whether it was a good idea, whether it was "adequate", or whether it would not kill OK
It was just a guy with a new rifle who wanted to try hunting water buffalo with it. The PH agreed, afterall there would be a PH right beside him with a .416 Rigby as well. The .416 Rigby never came to play BTW.
| Matt_Graham |
| (Sponsor) |
| 03/11/05 11:33 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Nitro - guide with no licence. Isn't that kind of, well, illegal??
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 04/11/05 12:44 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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No idea?
Edited:
See my comments below.
| ALAN_MCKENZIE |
| (.400 member) |
| 04/11/05 04:55 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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I think white anting pro hunters shooting territory is about as low as you can go !
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 04/11/05 06:03 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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No idea ?
Come on NitroX, you know the gun laws
of this country as well as anyone.
Playing ignorant just doesn't cut it - in the forums
eyes or the laws eyes if they had caught you.
I'd censor the photos if I were you - I know people
who have been prosecuted AFTER the event based
on photos they took with illegal game / guns.
500 Nitro
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 05/11/05 02:28 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Edited:
I apologise to 500Nitro and Matt Graham. it appears I did mention "licencing". Actually I have no idea what the licence situation was, only he could not bring his firearms over yet.
Since this comment the actual person referred to was clarified.
(he post as it stood)
***
500Nitro
FFFF off! People running their own business in a "glass house" shouldn't throw stones.
I have no idea if any of the guides used were licenced, just like I didn't check if Matt Graham was licenced when I hunted with him as well in 2004.
By the way what sort of "licence" are we talking about? Firearms, Outfitter, Professional Hunter, Drivers.
Who are we talking about? I hunted with two different outfits this year, and three different guides one whom was the landowner.
I doubt you know either and is it any of your business?
As a client it isn;t my responsibility to "police" an outfitter, professional hunter or landowner.
Matt Graham
I sent to you a Private Message asking for clarification on your comment. I would appreciate a reply by private message as well. I have now sent a follow-up private message seeing I still have not received a reply.
| Matt_Graham |
| (Sponsor) |
| 05/11/05 09:52 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Hi John
Sorry I missed your PM's - I dont log on here every day.
As I said in the reply PM - I didnt mean anything nasty by my comments I just thought you should clarify your comments that the guy George didnt have a licence. It sounded kind of incriminating.
Cheers all
Matt Graham
| ALAN_MCKENZIE |
| (.400 member) |
| 05/11/05 12:16 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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I think someone just got told.
My personal oppinion is that this particular thread should be frozen .
its getting way off track.
we have all had a bit of fun and given our oppinions so let us all move on.
Al
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 05/11/05 02:18 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Matt
retracting the statements made on this thread - it appears I did say it.
(I made no comment about "licences" on my threads. etc ...)
Personally I have no idea of the gentleman's licence situation.
| rgp |
| (.333 member) |
| 05/11/05 03:18 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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I've been reading this thread and believe that information on results with a 6.5 and other smallbores on buffalo and cattle is quite useful, not because I would intentionally hunt anything as large as buffalo with a small calibre weapon, but rather because you're not always armed with the weapon of your choice when you need to kill something that doesn't like you. If in an area with buffalo or even domestic cattle and you're there working rather than hunting, a heavy rifle is frequently left behind and if a problem occurs, you have to make do with what you have at the time.
Richard
| Marrakai |
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| 05/11/05 03:51 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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In reply to:
George, the guide, as his own rifles were in NZ, not having a licence in Aust yet, used the station .303 no 1 Mk III full wood rifle as his back up rifle.
In reply to:
I made no comment about "licences" on my threads
Hmmmm!
Possessing or discharging the station .303 while "not having a licence in Australia yet" is lawful in the NT only if the unlicenced person is under the direct supervision and immediate proximity of a licenced shooter. Not sure what happens with clients licenced overseas, but assume a temporary licence or permit would be required.
Perhaps we need to be a bit more careful with the content of our posts...
BTW: Telling other posters to FFFoff and threatening to expose their personal details is not your usual style, John. I hope you resume your tolerance and decorum soon. This thread really did unravel a bit, but its a contentious topic: what did you expect?
Keep your cool, mate.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 05/11/05 04:08 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Oops. I apologise to all and sundry. I have no idea of the licence situation. Only that he had not brought his firearms over yet. Again I apologise. Will send emails or PMs as well.
In reply to:
is lawful in the NT only if the unlicenced person is under the direct supervision and immediate proximity of a licenced shooter.
As South Australia has reciprocal rights with the Northern Territory ie a South Australian firearms licence is recognised for a visitor in the NT, and I am licensed, does this mean he was legal (no matter what his unknown personal situation) anyway. I had thought of that anyway but was unaware if the NT was the same as SA ie a foreign visitor may be supervised by an Australian licensed shooter.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 05/11/05 04:26 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Other than sticking my foot in my mouth, I have been loading up and working on about 200 of Orion's photos the last few nights. We also have video but it needs to be sourced from Graham Williams of the hunt (taken by "Diana" - Helen Williams who accompanied Orion on most of his hunts and did some good camera work.)
Orion's second buffalo.
Shot far too back some may say ? I asked Orion yesterdat and, No, the bullet was angled forward into the lungs/heart area and was a SINGLE shot kill.
Looking for the first buffalo photos as a block is missing.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 05/11/05 04:29 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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And another couple.
This buffalo was too close for comfort for Orion during the hunt.
They are standing in a river bed with the river bank immediately in front. The buffalo is only a few yards away.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 06/11/05 12:38 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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The first bull.
This is the "bull" that is presumably in the rumours running around the 'Top End' with a couple of bullets up its arse.
No. Orion reported it was shot from broadside, probably angling forward a little into the heart / lungs area. It then ran off, where the PH insisted on follow-up shots, into its rump and arse. These had no affect. After a while the first shot had its affect and the bull dropped and after its lungs filled with blood sufficiently it died.
Orion and the video camerawoman, Helen Williams.
Now I wonder what these photographs prove?
| Marty |
| (.300 member) |
| 13/11/05 10:39 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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In reply to:Well they must prove something because you saw fit to post them on another thread on your Boards....
Now I wonder what these photographs prove?
They prove that a couple of good sized buff were taken. But all your posts on this subject have failed to answer at least two of my questions.
And I repost in hope of an answer either by you or Orion.
"We have had the promise of photos and story for some time now. Nothing has been forthcoming.
Q1. Photo of the Buff please?
Q2. How many shots did it take? And where was it hit?
Q3. Was the PH happy with the final outcome?
Q4. Would the hunter use this calibre again, and would he recommend it to other hunters?"
OK we have the photos.
It was a 4 shot kill. Anything else is conjecture. Two in the chest, plus two in the arse = 4 shots by my way of counting. 4 shots in a Buff is not outrageous. But lets call a spade a spade. It was a 4 shot kill. Not 2.
Q3 and 4 have remained unanswered. And I will add a Q5.
Why did the hunter choose this particular rifle and Calibre as being Buff capable? Was it because he believed the 6.5x54 was the best he had available? Or because it was the best going? Or was there another reason?
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 13/11/05 11:46 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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In reply to:
Well they must prove something because you saw fit to post them on another thread on your Boards....
Well perhaps it is called a "hunting story"
***
Q3 Was the PH happy?
I suppose so. The animal died fairly close to where shot. The client was able to approach the buffalo to the range required. No animals escaped. No one was hurt. He was paid. I think, happy. Everyone in camp seemed to enjoy the week.
Q4. Would he recommend it to others?
No idea. Maybe it isn't relevant, a lot of people don't like giving "advice".
The first buffalo was 3 or 4 shots. I wasn't there. 2 were up the arse as the PH insisted and were ineffectual.
There are two different buffalo. His second buffalo was a single shot kill. I think I mentioned it. The PH again urged additional shots which he this time ignored.
Orion is not a good typer and one reason he does not post much. So to put it to rest I will answer. There is video which needs to be sourced too. Eventually that will be posted - for fun, nothing else.
The reason he choose this calibre was because he bought a new (vintage) rifle and aims to shoot all sorts of game with it. His "bigger" "long range" calibre was a 7mm STW. As said previously he has taken over 20 buffalo with the .270 (1983 approx). His biggest rifle is a .375 H&H (6 lbs! in total weight) which he has used for lion and cape buffalo in Africa (because the law insists on minimums).
***
Marty
Quid Pro Quo
I have answered your questions but you haven't answered mine. What were the rumours mentioned and who was spreading them? A PM is OK unless you are happy to answer here.
I just found that comment amusing.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 13/11/05 11:50 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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A change in tack for this topic.
Everyone has probably heard the stories of WDM (Karamojo) Bell and his shooting of numerous elephant with a .275 Rigby (7x57 mm) but he also reguarded his .256 (6.5x54 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer) as his "buffalo" meat rifle. It was also used for elephant on occasion but he preferred the 7mm for this.
I actually found the desire to use the 6.5x54MS as historically "ironic" and interesting, considering Bell considered such a rifle a "buffalo rifle".
What do you think?
| ORION |
| (.275 member) |
| 18/11/05 08:56 PM |
Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Hi everyone,
thanks to John,for the pics he put up.
Thanks for all your comments,you got it all of your chest!
Saves you theraphie!
Karajamo Bell is in my view the greatest hunter of all
and I learned a lot from his books.
I put it into practise and proved he was right.
I wish people could have more open minds,but unfortunatly
most live in flatland and never make it to the top of a mountain.
Dont knock people who do.
My view off the 6.5x54 MS is one hell of a caliber,almost
as good as a 270.
Who else besides Marakai shot Buff or anything with a 6.5x54 MS?
If you havent, you definitly dont know what you talking about.
Thanks again to Australian Buffalo Hunters .
Waidmannsheil!
Orion
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 19/11/05 06:03 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Hat's off to you, Orion.
: I've never shot a buffalo, Cape or Water for that matter. This doens''t mean I cannot dream, or that I haven't studied such hunting and writings.
: Had the buff gone into thick cover, the two shots up the arse might not have been possible. The first shot, the killing shot is the important one. Had the buff needed 2 or more shots in the vitals to work, it would not have been a 1-shot kill. If one shot killed it, so be it.
: What this boils down to is I'd have no quams of shooting either with my 6.5X55, or my Daughter's .260, with appropriate bullets as I-too believe it is adequate for the job. Proper bullet placement with proper bullets works. Would I choose to use a 6.5, no, but that doesn't mean it is inadequate.
: Congratulations.
| rgp |
| (.333 member) |
| 19/11/05 06:40 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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In reply to:
Everyone has probably heard the stories of WDM (Karamojo) Bell and his shooting of numerous elephant with a .275 Rigby (7x57 mm) but he also reguarded his .256 (6.5x54 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer) as his "buffalo" meat rifle. It was also used for elephant on occasion but he preferred the 7mm for this.
I actually found the desire to use the 6.5x54MS as historically "ironic" and interesting, considering Bell considered such a rifle a "buffalo rifle".
This is interesting. Does anyone know if he was using the 6.5 to shoot any cape buffalo he felt like shooting, or was he intentionally selecting younger/smaller animals for better tasting meat?
Richard
| mickey |
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| 19/11/05 11:09 AM |
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In reply to:
This is interesting. Does anyone know if he was using the 6.5 to shoot any cape buffalo he felt like shooting, or was he intentionally selecting younger/smaller animals for better tasting meat?
Richard, does it matter? He did shoot a number of Elephants with the 6.5 and he was picking them out for the size of the Ivory.
| rgp |
| (.333 member) |
| 19/11/05 11:20 AM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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Mickey,
Considering what you just mentioned, I suspect he was probably comfortable using his 6.5 on anything that moves...
Richard
| mlg |
| (.275 member) |
| 19/11/05 12:56 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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I have read somewhere that the reason he used small calibers was becuase he disliked recoil of big bores.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 21/11/05 01:30 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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If I remember whom the author was and I think it was Bell (I may be wrong, if needed I will check), he once recommended the .318 Westley Richards as a good choice for penetration and a .450 double as an elephant rifle. Though he took only a .318 WR and a lighter rifle.
His "Karamojo" hunting was influenced in my opinion by a number of factors (IMO):
1. He was hunting fairly undisturbed game. The game was not familiar with modern firearms and a rifle report, especially from a smaller rifle did not scare them much. Allowing more elephants (and presumably buffalo) to be taken.
2. He was hunting in high grass. He tried shooting big bores off a tripod or a black's shoulders but the recoil knocked him off.
3. The bullets he used had high sectional densities and great penetration abilities.
4. He studied the anatomy of the game and the precise angle of shot needed to reach the brain or vitals.
5. If an elephant (or buffalo) ran away he lost the ivory (or meat) and it did NOT cost him an expensive trophy fee like it would be us today.
So the historical irony I feel is very apt. Using an appropriate bullet with good penetrating ability, a very careful and closely stalked shot, the buffalo will die.
The 6.5x54 mm M-S can be MADE to be adequate IMO. Except in the 1-5% of occasions when a buffalo might get "touchy" and come for you. Then the 6.5mm shooter had better hope for a good brain shot, he would probably only get one chance.
My opinion is the 6.5 mm (.264) calibre is the absolute minimum anyone would even comtemplate using, but there are always exceptions.
Would I recommend it? NO! My recomendation is always "Most PHs and Guides recommend a client brings a .375 H&H Magnum or similar or larger calibre, one that they are comfortable with shooting."
Especially if NOT hunting with a guide who may have a larger rifle (ie in the .375 to .458 class).
Also many clients main objective is to hunt a good buffalo bull, perhaps a very nice trophy. The hunting is the main objective.
Occasionally a client or hunter has a different main objective. Like Orion he has a new 'vintage' rifle and wanted to use it. Some guys (or girls) think a stick, some string and a twig with feathers on it is "adequate". And would rather bow hunt than use a more certain method. I'm still waiting for some guys to carry through with their bragging and spear hunt a water buffalo. Still waiting!
Good luck to everyone with their buffalo hunting. Myself I will probably stick to my 9.3mm and .450.
| ORION |
| (.275 member) |
| 21/11/05 10:14 PM |
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
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DARYL S
I THANK YOU
WEI HEI
ORION
| lapua |
| (.333 member) |
| 05/06/06 10:21 AM |
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hello Alan
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Hi mate I meet you a couple times down in Pinjarra shoot
You brought in 2 .500 Jeffery from SA could you email me your contact no. mate, some Q's about those rifles.
Cheers
laupa ex 10th LH
| ORION |
| (.275 member) |
| 01/07/06 11:58 PM |
Re: hello Alan
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Hi,
just come back from a camel hunt and im happy to report
that the 6.5x54 MS was
BIG ENOUGH
WiHi
Orion
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 02/07/06 04:26 AM |
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Re: hello Alan
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Orion
As if there would be any doubt.
Another trip to the Simpson?