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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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CZ_hunter
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What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge?
      #235680 - 16/09/13 04:46 AM

What is your opinion?

Making a short research I would say the 300 H&H should be on the top of the list. I have never shot rifle chambered for the belted version but I do own custom made 7x57 and 400 H&H rifles and for me these are the slickest feeding cartridges I have ever owned. It is obvious that the hands of a gunsmith are also of great importance...

I bet all of the H&H cartridges with tapered cases should be slick feeding cartridges despite the general condemnation of all belted cartridges.

To me slick feeding is very important as I can fire very quickly the second round controlling the situation. Total confidence is what I need especially when used for DGR.


CZ hunter

Edited by CZ_hunter (16/09/13 05:37 AM)


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bobrhess
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: CZ_hunter]
      #235682 - 16/09/13 05:43 AM

I totally agree! I have owned a .300 H&H pre 64 Winchester Model 70 for over 50 years and it's the only rifle I use. I've taken it to Alaska, Canada,Mexico and have never had any problems with it all this time.

I've taken Barren Ground Caribou,black bear, Dall Sheep in Alaska and black bear in Canada with it. I have also used it to take a desert sheep in Nevada and will be loading some 230 gr Burger bullets for a Brown Bear hunt in Alaska in the near future.

It's the slickest rifle I've ever owned and my only go-to rifle!

I have two Edwards recoil reducers in the original stock and the recoil is less than a .270 caliber!

Bob


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tinker
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: bobrhess]
      #235684 - 16/09/13 06:51 AM

6.5 Mannlicher from the MS action.


In it's own world.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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500Nitro
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: tinker]
      #235685 - 16/09/13 07:00 AM


I'd have to agree with Tinker.

The MS's are as slick as.


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Don
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235688 - 16/09/13 07:47 AM

Wouldn't the 375 H&H Mag make at least the top ten?

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500Nitro
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: Don]
      #235689 - 16/09/13 07:59 AM


Yes, I would put it in the top 10.

Never had a problem with it.


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mauserand9mm
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235691 - 16/09/13 08:53 AM

Of those mentioned so far, I've only had experience with the 375. I can make it jam occassionally in my CZ if I use 350gn round nose.

My 458 with 510gn round nose is at the other end of the spectrum - jams 50% of the time.


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500Nitro
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #235693 - 16/09/13 09:20 AM

Mauser

"I can make it jam occassionally in my CZ if I use 350gn round nose."


Not a valid comparison, the gun was designed for the standard bullets like 235gn, 270gn and 300gn.

Going to a 350gn or non standard bullet shape - ie the flat nose can't be compared.

"My 458 with 510gn round nose is at the other end of the spectrum - jams 50% of the time. "

What 458 ?

Winchester Mod 70 or CZ ?

Known problem because Win came out with a different shape bullet (510gn) and a lot of people had to modify the feed ramp of other guns to get them to feed normal 500gn bullets (and 400gn). And vice versa, some Win Mod 70's had to be modded to suit other bullets.

Edited by 500Nitro (16/09/13 09:26 AM)


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Huvius
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235694 - 16/09/13 10:19 AM

I must say that my Lee Speed 303 is about as smooth as any Mauser or Winchester I have used.
The 404 with a good round nose is a smooth operator too. I just can't see it jamming ever.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: Huvius]
      #235698 - 16/09/13 05:53 PM

Tinker +1 see article below from Guns and shooting online, I agree with him

Mannlicher-Schoenauer bolt action

The Austrian Mannlicher-Schoenauer and the German Mauser 98 were the main competitors for the upscale, bolt action, hunting rifle market after the turn of the 20th Century. Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher was primarily responsible for the basic action design and Otto Schönauer was primarily responsible for the rotary drum, five-shot magazine design, hence the hyphenated name.

The M-S is a controlled cartridge feeding design with a fixed, receiver mounted ejector. The super-precisely made action uses a bolt with dual, opposed, front locking lugs and the bolt handle serves as a safety lug. The bolt rotation to open and close the action is 90 degrees. A split rear receiver ring guides the bolt handle as the bolt is withdrawn and this action, combined with the Schoenauer spool magazine that eliminates magazine follower drag on the underside of the bolt, makes the M-S the smoothest turn bolt design we have ever used. Cartridges in the Schoenauer rotary magazine never touch each other, feed in a straight line into the chamber and the magazine can be quickly recharged by means of stripper clips (a feature intended for military applications). The Mannlicher-Schoenauer's lock time is leisurely by modern standards and it is not the easiest rifle in the world on which to mount a telescopic sight, but nothing can compare to the silky operating feel of a Mannlicher-Schoenauer and no factory built rifle is better made.

The Mannlicher-Schoenauer went into mass production around 1903 and remained in production until 1971, by which time the rapidly rising cost of production had priced the "World's Greatest Rifle" out of the marketplace. Naturally, a rifle produced for that long underwent many minor revisions and was made in many calibers. Mannlicher-Schoenauer models include the 1903, 1905, 1908, 1910, 1924, Magnum Rifle, 1950, 1952, 1956-MC and 1961-MCA.


Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 Carbine. Photo courtesy of GunsInternational.com.
Mannlicher-Schoenauer sporting rifles were produced in conventional half stock rifle and full length stock carbine versions. The latter is known to this day as a "Mannlicher stock," regardless of company of manufacture. Ruger and CZ, for example, offer Mannlicher stocked, bolt action carbines. Another distinguishing design feature of M-S rifles was their "butter knife" bolt handle, variations of which are still used on Steyr/Mannlicher, T/C Icon and other bolt actions today.

A popular option on Mannlicher-Schoenauer hunting rifles was a double set trigger mechanism. This allows you to pull the rear trigger to "set" the front trigger for a very light release (measured in ounces!). The rifle could also be fired by simply pulling the (unset) front trigger in the normal manner.

Perhaps the most popular and best known of the unique Mannlicher calibers is the 6.5x54 M-S. This is one of the small bore calibers that WDM Bell used to shoot a number of elephants for their ivory tusks. The majority of Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles, however, were sold in the same popular European and American calibers for which most bolt action rifles are chambered. These include, but are not limited to, such standards as the .243 Winchester, 6.5x55, .270 Winchester, 7x57, .30-06 and 8x57. Less frequently seen, but very appropriate American cartridges (especially for the M-S Carbine) include the .244/6mm Remington, .257 Roberts and .358 Winchester.


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Ash
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #235699 - 16/09/13 07:02 PM

Mauserand9mm, what .458 do you have? I have a zastava, and its never failed to feed, flatnoses, round noses, loaded short, to max magazine, etc. Rather pleased with that rifle.
Its my slickest feeding, though the krico .22lr has never had an issue either

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Rell
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: Ash]
      #235700 - 16/09/13 09:25 PM

I had a MS that had the barrel rusted out. My local gunsmith re barreled it with a take off from a 35 Remington. It was slick!

I used primarily 225gr Sierra Spitzers in it and it was some fast. I lost it in a Canoe incident in Alberta, I still think about re creating that wierd and wonderful little rifle at least once a week.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: Rell]
      #235701 - 16/09/13 09:32 PM

Talking about cartridge feeding and mentioning the tapered designs of the cartridges. Also on extraction, I prefer for DG rifles a tapered case like the old NE's and similar. Having had an unfortunate occurrence or two with very straight walled modern cases with difficult or failed extraction. Not a good idea for a DG rifle.

The M-S's have the reputation for the slickest actions.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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xausa
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: NitroX]
      #235704 - 16/09/13 11:13 PM

Quote:

Talking about cartridge feeding and mentioning the tapered designs of the cartridges. Also on extraction, I prefer for DG rifles a tapered case like the old NE's and similar. Having had an unfortunate occurrence or two with very straight walled modern cases with difficult or failed extraction. Not a good idea for a DG rifle.

The M-S's have the reputation for the slickest actions.




That's odd, since my experience is just the opposite. I have always found straight walled cases the easiest to extract. My theory is that every action (particularly double rifle actions) has a certain amount of "give", and when the action springs back, the tapered case tends to wedge into the chamber, where the straight walled case does not. My Krieghoff .458 WM double rifle extracted and ejected cases with ease, but the cases had an alarming tendency to stick tight with the .375 H&H barrels. Krieghoff fixed the problem, but to this day I don't know how.

I own several Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles, and although the bolt operates incredibly smoothly, because of the position and design of the bolt handle it does not compare with my pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters in smoothness of operation from the shoulder.

My experience with the .300 H&H in the pre-64 Model 70 has been ideal. I once waded into a pack of wild dogs on private property in Kenya with that rifle and emptied it, accounting for four dogs with five shots in about eight seconds. I have to admit, however, that I once fired five aimed shots in eight seconds with an SMLE, all in the black (about 6.5" in diameter) of a 200 yard reduced target at 100 yards.


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DarylS
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: xausa]
      #235706 - 17/09/13 12:07 AM

Yes - very odd to have a straight sided case fail to extract - that is, one with .010" or less taper. Many so-called modern straight cases actually have more taper and thus are prone to sticking with high pressures.

All of my high stepping Ackley Improved wildcats have fed and extracted perfectly - in the Mauser rifles used and only the little finger is needed to lift the bolt for primary extraction.

It is the high pressure more tapered cases that give grief with extraction- but - the pressures have to be way over the top for that to happen, barring chamber problems.

The grossly tapered NE's are such low pressure that their poor and sticky case shape allows easy extraction even in the African heat- due to little or no expansion- ie: low pressure.

There are times when developing loads for the Ackley Improved rounds, that one has to stop and go backwards just out of fear or concern as the normal pressure indicators like sticky cases just aren't there. My .375.06 Imp. is a prime example.

When you exceed .375H&H factory ballistics with a .30/06 case, you've necessarily gone too far, yet little finger extraction and no case head expansion. I am directly referring to 2,750fps with a 270gr. TSX.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mauserand9mm
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: Ash]
      #235711 - 17/09/13 08:44 AM

Quote:

Mauserand9mm, what .458 do you have? I have a zastava, and its never failed to feed, flatnoses, round noses, loaded short, to max magazine, etc. Rather pleased with that rifle.
Its my slickest feeding, though the krico .22lr has never had an issue either




CZ. Apparantly even back in the Brno 602 days, half those in 458 had feeding issues. Depends on who's cycling the bolt too. The previous owner of my CZ had issues with many different projectiles, but they worked for me (go figure). He had the feed ramp modified, but wasn't successful. The rifle was going to be parted out but I ended up buying it (reduced price).

I normally use the 400gn Woodleigh PP and they feed 99% of the time.

I'm led to believe that CZ-USA convert them to 458Lott to fix the feeding issue (our CZs come in from CZ USA) - the longer case changes the feed angle (the jamming occurs when the projectile gets caught up in the extractor recess inside the action, and this only happen with rounds coming out of the LHS of the magazine).

I thought all CZs coming in now were now 458Lott, but maybe they only convert those that have issues. I notice Rebel's are selling both 458 and 458Lott in new CZs.


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500Nitro
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #235712 - 17/09/13 08:48 AM


"I'm led to believe that CZ-USA convert them to 458Lott to fix the feeding issue"

Jesus Christ, a gun maker who can't fix a feeding issue.

It's not just the feed ramp, the Mag spring and how it
makes the plate the ammo sits on sit in the box.

Plenty of them have been sorted out over here in Aus,
both Win and CZ.


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mauserand9mm
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235714 - 17/09/13 08:57 AM

Yes.

The magazine is cavernous - I was going to experiment with a spacer to keep the rounds at the back of the magazine but never got around to it - the Woodleighs helped me significantly.

The CZs are targeted at the "competitive" end of the market - I guess they figure it would cost more to try and fix, and leave it up to the buyers to sort out. Not the first time a company has done this, not just firearms either.


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2152hq
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #235747 - 18/09/13 12:21 PM

30-40 USA Krag ain't bad at all. I'd put it right at the top of my meager group along with the M/S's and a 6.5 Steyr sporter built on a Romanian M93 action.
A Low# Sedgely Springfield '06 works & feeds like oiled glass too. A couple of '88 Sporters in 8mm feed slick too.
Hell, they're all pretty easy to use.


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mauserand9mm
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: 2152hq]
      #235750 - 18/09/13 01:26 PM

Talking about smooth rifle actions, I'd have to add the old ex-military Vergueiro. I've got one in original condition in 8x57. The tight bolt/action clearances, short bolt handle and bolt handle closing ahead of the rear action ring (ie split receiver) all contribute to the smoothness.

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93x64mm
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #235759 - 18/09/13 04:10 PM

500Nitro,
In reference to your CZ, I had major feeding issues with my own CZ550 in 404.
The very first top round never got picked up at all!
I read an article from Bob Wolf over in the US & he fixed it with a spacer in the back of the magazine box.
I tried this but with tapered 1/4" block from top to bottom so I didn't lose any magazine capacity with my CZ & yes it works good now.
I am no gunsmith but my thoughts are that CZ have taken too much meat off the feed rails making the front of the cartridge tip up & hence the bolt going over the top of the rear of the cartridge & not picking it up. With the spacer in, it "seems to me" to put more pressure on the rear of the cartridge lifting it up & into correct alignment as the spring is bearing more strongly to the rear towards the unloaded position.
My rifle was a display model that I got for a good price, but it had a faulty trigger & bedding (none at all & a very plain stock rather than a bit more of a "fancy" stock that's supposed to come standard with these rifles) issues as well. All sorted out now!
Tried contacting CZ USA & Winchester Australia - not even a reply, rather piss poor service guys!

After a bit of TLC the action has smoothed out somewhat - still a long way to go yet, but Geez those .404's go in real easy & just fall out even with 2300fps loads!
Guess if we shoot our rigs enough they smooth out hey!!!
Bugger when we don't get to do it enough like me.
That's the "real" issue if you have a tight action......use it more!
Cheers


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500Nitro
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #235761 - 18/09/13 04:52 PM


All the CZ's needed "smoothing out".

Hence people used to use that paste on them
that smoothed all the edges off.

Re the block at the rear sorting the spring out
and therefore how the cartridge sits, yes, I can
imagine as the spring can be the culprit.

Bending the spring slightly can affect
how the floor plate sits.


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Rule303
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235763 - 18/09/13 09:56 PM

Smoothest action I have tried is a Shultz and Larsen, smoother than the few M-S's I have tried. I have not tried the 300 H&H but the 375 H&H and a couple of other tappered case are certainly very smooth to feed.

The more tappered a case the more back pressure is put on the bolt. The less tapper the quicker the case walls grip the chamber walls and less back pressure on the bolt. The tappered cases tend to stretch. This forces the shoulder to lock harder into the chamber wall with the base hard against the bolt face, requiring more pressure to operate the bolt. Of course with normal under max loads this is neglible but can become noticeable with hotter loads. As taught to me by a metalurgist.


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500Nitro
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: Rule303]
      #235765 - 18/09/13 10:28 PM


Rule

I feel you can cut down on case stretch by neck sizing only.


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Rule303
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Re: What is the slickest feeding bolt action rifle cartridge? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235800 - 19/09/13 08:12 PM

Nigel what you say is true but the case will still strech more than a case with less taper according to what I was told. I am not total sold on what they say as I figure if the case is a tight fit between the bolt face and datum point on the neck, I can not see how the case would strech further. I could well of miss under stood what the bloke was driving at.

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