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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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kcordell
.275 member


Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Deep South
Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ?
      #109115 - 07/07/08 01:30 AM

Where can I get these in the US?

Many thanks,

KC

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: kcordell]
      #109119 - 07/07/08 03:09 AM

Kc-

I'm relatively certain you're on your own with this one, fortunately handloading slugs is pretty easy stuff and easy to set up for.


Cruise over to 16ga.com and ask the 2-1/2" slug/roundball recipe question and you'll get some responses, also solid leads on where to find whatever's available on the market.
I'm confident no one is selling loaded 2-1/2" 16b slugs though.
If it's out there, those guys will likely know.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: tinker]
      #109140 - 07/07/08 08:26 AM

I measured a 16 gauge Brenneke slug shell, and the OAL was 2 1/4", with a rolled crimp, so I believe they can be used in a 2 1/2" chamber with impunity.

My main concern is with the choke, which with the right barrel of my Greifelt drilling is so tight that the measuring device could not be inserted in the barrel. The left barrel measured "full choke", so I refer to the chokes as "full and fuller."

I have been told that Brennekes will shoot safely in even the tightest choked barrels, but I'm just not sure how accurate that representation is and how much I trust it.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: xausa]
      #109144 - 07/07/08 10:30 AM

Couple things.

First thing, on whether or not the brenneke will work safely...
That's one for you to find out. Think about service pressure limits.
Do you know the operating pressure is of that ammunition?
Do you know what the service pressure is that your drilling was proofed for?
Without knowing this information, even strapping the gun to an old tire, and pulling the trigger with a long piece of string won't tell you if it's safe.
Your gun might survive the experiment, but that might be the very edge of it's limits even if the chokes were straight cylinder. An oily chamber or an especially hot day might turn the leaf for you so to speak.

Next thing - cerrosafe cast your chambers.
Cut one of those brenneke slug cartridges open (or just shoot it in a longer chambered gun) and compare the unrolled length of the hull to the casting of your chamber.
If ammunition operational pressure is within the service load limits of your gun, and when open the hulls stop before the forcing cones, you just might want to consider the 'tie it to a spare tire' test run and see how it goes.


One of our European members might have more 'on the ground' perspective to share with you on the slug-through-choke issue.
I wouldn't try running them in the gun before I had a good understanding of it's intended service load limits, and the mfgr's claimed running pressure of the ammunition.


Good luck.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: xausa]
      #109148 - 07/07/08 10:57 AM

Quote:


I have been told that Brennekes will shoot safely in even the tightest choked barrels, but I'm just not sure how accurate that representation is and how much I trust it.



Xausa

Tony Blair told us there were WMD's in Iraq. I would put that on the same basis

Personaly I would not even attempt it in a full choke barrel.

Regards

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peter
removed


Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: Bramble]
      #109189 - 07/07/08 10:12 PM

even brenneke don't aprove of anything tighter then 1/4 choke
dont go there

best regards

peter

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26533
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Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: peter]
      #109204 - 08/07/08 01:44 AM

Undersize round balls and you'll have to load them on your own, cutting cases as necessary. Have fun with this - I do.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8752
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: kcordell]
      #109215 - 08/07/08 04:15 AM

the brennecke firm is allways saying that the original brenneke slug is safe in ANY shotgun. its a question of the slug design. I never heard about a shotgun destroyed when shoting factory brenneke slugs.
and every german made shotgun since 1900 is made with the possiblity of using brenneke in mind.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: lancaster]
      #109225 - 08/07/08 06:30 AM

Based on Lancaster's representation, I visited the Brenneke web site and discovered the following:

"Brenneke-Flintenlaufgeschosse (mit Ausnahme der Geschosse „Gold“ und „SuperSabot“) sind für alle Arten von Chokes geeignet. Selbst ein enger Vollchoke stellt kein Problem dar. Die Ursache dafür liegt in den schräg gestellten Rippen, die nicht für Drall, sondern für einen problemlosen Chokedurchgang sorgen."

"Brenneke shotgun slugs (with the exception of the "Gold" and "Super-Sabot" projectiles) are suited for all types of chokes. Even a tight full choke presents no problems. The reason for this is the diagonally positioned ribs, which function not as a replacement for rifling twist, but assure a problem-free passage through the choke."

I have written to Brenneke directly and asked specifically about using their slugs in my pre-war drilling with 2 1/2" chambers. I will report when and if I receive a response.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: xausa]
      #109243 - 08/07/08 11:32 AM

xausa-

Do you have a clear enough understanding of the proof marks on your drilling to properly interpret them well enough to discern it's date of proof and it's service load?

If you don't have that knowledge, do yourself the favor of very clearly photographing the proofs on this gun and posting them to this thread.

There is definitely the knowledge in this community to properly read the marks, understand their significance, and translate the story to you with reference to published standards and data to back up the results.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: tinker]
      #109251 - 08/07/08 02:26 PM

Tinker,

Unfortunately my drilling is at NECG having claw mounts fitted, so I am unable to comply with your suggestion. As I recall, however, the gun was proofed in 1935, which makes it four years older than me. I will check with NECG and see what comments they may have to offer on the subject.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: xausa]
      #109256 - 08/07/08 03:02 PM

xausa-

If NECG can't properly decipher the proof marks on your drilling, I doubt we'll be able to be of any service to you!

As an aside, what's their price for the fitting of claw mounts and rings?


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: tinker]
      #109289 - 09/07/08 05:38 AM

"Sehr geehrter Herr Warren,

vielen Dank für Ihre Email.
Wir bieten im Kaliber 16 nur unsere "Classic 16/70" FLG-Patrone an. Diese ist für Ihren Drilling allerdings NICHT geeignet, da wie das Kaliber 16/70 bereits angibt die Länge der Patronenhülse im geöffneten abgefeuerten Zustand 70 mm beträgt. Da die Flintenläufe Ihres Drillings ein Patronenlager von nur 65 mm haben darf unsere Classic 16/70 nicht benutzt werden. Folglich können Sie nur Patronen verschießen, die eindeutig mit dem Kaliber 16/65 gekennzeichnet sind.

Die Länge der geladenen Patrone sagt nichts über die eigentliche Länge der Patronenhülse aus. Wenn Sie eine Patrone mit Hülsenlänge von 70 mm in einem 65 mm Patronenlager verschießen riskieren Sie nicht nur die Zerstörung der Waffe, sondern auch ernsthafte Verletzungen des Schützen und von nebenstehenden Personen.

Sie können Patronen mit Original BRENNEKE Flintenlaufgeschossen gefahrlos aus allen Chokes verschießen. Original BRENNEKE FLGs sind so konstruiert, dass sie aus allen gängigen Chokes verschossen werden können. Durch die Anordnung der Rippen auf den Geschossen wird das Blei des Geschosses derartig beim Durchgang durch den Lauf verdrängt, dass die Geschosse sogar aus Vollchokes verschossen werden können.

Bei Rückfragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Alexander Erler"

"Dear Mr. Warren,

Many thanks for your e-mail.

We offer only our Classic 16/70 cartridge with our rifled slugs. This is ceratinly NOT suitable for your drilling, as the designation 16/70 already reveals, since the designation indicates that the length of the fired cartridge case is 70mm (2 3/4"). Since the shot barrels of your drilling are 16/65, you should only use cartridges marked with this designation.

The length of the loaded cartridge does not indicate the actual length of the cartridge case. If you shoot a cartridge with a case length of 70mm in a 65 mm chamber you risk not only the destruction of the weapon, but also serious harm to the shooter and bystanders.

You can shoot cartridges with original BRENNEKE rifle slugs through all chokes without risk. Original BRENNEKE rifle slugs are so designed that they may be shot from all existing chokes. As a result of the arrangement of the ribs on the projectiles, the lead of the projectiles is displaced by passage through the barrel, which allows them to be safely shot even through full chokes.

We are at your service for any additional questions.

Best regards

Alexander Erler"

Mr. Erler's letter does not completely answer my question, since the Brenneke shells in my possession are not those mentioned in his e-mail. They have an unfired length of 2.325" and a roll crimp which according to my measurement adds an additional .275" to the length, for a total of 2.6", which is still, I suppose, too long to be used in a 16/65 chamber with impunity.

The barrel walls in front of the chamber of my drilling are too thin to allow for lengthening the chamber to 2 3/4", so I suppose I will have to content myself with hand loaded ammunition if I am to use slugs in this weapon at all.

Tinker: I have PM'd you an answer to your question about NECG.

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: xausa]
      #109294 - 09/07/08 06:10 AM

Hand loading it is then!!

You have numerous choices in front of you.
I most strongly suggest the hard round ball, set either in shot cups or patched as is used in muzzle loading rifles.

If you choose the use of shot cups, get a mould that will cast roundball the same diameter of your choke.
Jeff Tanner will make you a mould for under $50USD and have it shipped to your door a couple weeks from request and payment.

You can use blackpowder or smokeless.
Loading them is about as easy as can be.

One of our members, Darryl, has had extensive experience with this kind of loading (extensive law enforcement firearms training, and big game rifle competition) and has coached numerous others here on the site through the simple and rewarding process.
The results are always fantastic!
What you'll get is a very hard hitting, very well performing, and consistent, accurate load that you've tailored for your own gun.

Think about it, and when you're a 'yes!!' to the concept, either speak up here in this thread, or start a new one and we'll all get together with you and make it happen.
You'll be happy with the results, I know it.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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m4220
.300 member


Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 233
Loc: wa
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: tinker]
      #109304 - 09/07/08 10:02 AM

I will speak up!, as I to have several 16 ga Drillings and would like the ability to load one of the shot bbl'l with something heavy while in tall timber, just offer's one more option with the Drilling, LET'S HERE THE RECIPE!!!!

m4220

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: m4220]
      #109305 - 09/07/08 10:34 AM

First you must determine the diameter of the choke you'll be shooting through.
Then you must either get a source of roundball of exactly that size, or have a mould made that will produce ball of the right size and cast them yourself.

From there you need to find the right shot cups to modify, or get pre-made gas seals, like these

Ballistic Products gas seals

You will also need overpowder cards, lubed wads, and blackpowder.
For choke-sized ball, I'd use somewhere between 2 and 2-1/2 drams of Goex FFg blackpowder.

Process:
-trim primed hulls to length
-pour blackpowder into hull
-add overpowder card
-add enough properly lubricated wadding to get the above noted gas seal and roundball up to the end of the case, with just enough room for a good roll crimp
-roll crimp the case

There you have it!
With the right blackpowder lubricant, and enough of it (in the wadding) your fouling will be soft and follow-up shots will not require swabbing or cleaning before shooting.

I don't have smokeless recipes for you.
You'll have to research that on your own.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26533
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: tinker]
      #109353 - 10/07/08 12:03 AM

Good stuff, Tinker! Right-on!
; I suggest whomever wants to load balls in their shotgun, that they buy a current shotshell loading manual produced by Lyman.
; Tinker's ball size recommendations are spot-on. Jeff Tanner will make you the mould you need. Once you are casting balls of the correct size,t hey can be cat of any alloy. The harder they are, the deeper the penetration. Do not get the notion that a pure lead ball won't penetrate - they do, like one side to the other on Moose and Elk. If you want to go lengthwise ont hise majestic animals, use WW for the ball. They do not need to be hardened further.
: As to BP loads, you can use as much Black powder as you can get into the case, along with the requisite wads. With black powder, you need a barrier between the BP and the plastic 'cup-wad' that centres the ball in the bore. Plastic wads will be melted by the BP flame and will coat the bore with plastic - you do not want this. Use an 1/8" hard card between BP and plastic.
: As to smokeless loads - you can start by using lower pressure 1oz. loads that develope the highest velocities. They are easy to spot in the manual. You are looking for velocities in the 1,300fps to 1,400fps or higher, that develope pressure in the 8,000 to 9,000 psi or lup or cup range. These you can use with wads that fill the base with the ball perched on top. Adjust the wad column to allow either a rolled or folded crimp, whatever you want. If you have other, had hopefully extensive handloading experience and I hope you do, you'll know what to do from here and this post will be easily followed by you. You will be able to develope much better loads than those presented here.
; Note that with black powder, there is more recoil than an identical velocity load with smokeless. This is due to the BP's method of burning and the amount of unconsumed or solid waste that results when shooting BP. Fully 57% of BP, when burned is solid waste. Some gets ejected, some stays to foul the bore. It and the heavy charge itself adds to recoil from adding to the weight of the ejecta.
: To clean BP fouling, merely pour cold water down the tubes, flushing the crap out the muzzles pointed down. Run cold water wet patches up and down the tubes until they come out clean, then dry with clean patches, then spray with a water displacing lube, like WD 40. That's what I use and it works well. Cleaning shouldn't take more than 7 min. once you gat the hang of it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: DarylS]
      #109371 - 10/07/08 04:38 AM


Just make sure your wads are properly lubricated with good BP wad lube so that your fouling remains soft, shot after shot.

I'm perfectly in agreement with Darryl on the cleaning.
I don't understand the assumption that 99++% of the worldwideweb shooting community has that it takes an hour to clean up blackpowder residue.

Cold water is all you need and it acts very quickly, very completely.

We had somewhere here on the site copies from an 1862 text on the service of blackpowder barrels after shooting.
No special chemicals, no hot water, no BS.
Just cold water and clean swabs.
Light oil afterwards and go about your business.


Furthermore, once you start burning blackpowder you'll never want to stop.
It's very rewarding.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26533
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: tinker]
      #109413 - 10/07/08 01:50 PM

Tinker- I read a letter sent to a double-gun collector friend of mine on the proper care of his double black powder shotguns and rifles. Holland & Holland wrote the letter and said to use cold water only for cleaning with a water displacing lube applied after drying with patches. Theor reason ws that cold wter softened and disolved black powder fouling almost instantly, whereas very hot water would cause the fouling to glaze, then not disolve. They said if you want to speed drying, use tap-warm water, but be aware if too hot, can cause flash rusting which starts the pitting action, which is accumlative. I've cleaned my ML's and ctg. guns with cold tap water ever since and have never rotted a bore. They are so brilliantly gleaming inside you cannot look at a 60 Watt bulb through them. This, of course, is the result of the lapping that takes place with many thousands of shots through the bore along with proper cleaning, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Slugs for 16 ga 2 1/2 ? [Re: DarylS]
      #109421 - 10/07/08 05:30 PM

Daryl-

I fully agree.
Blackpowder residue is easier to clean up than nitro powder residue.

My borerifles are cupcakes to clean.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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