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buckstix
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Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne"
      #338536 - 29/02/20 09:53 PM

Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" - with an extra set of 16ga Barrels

Hello All,

Just picked up another dandy Cape Gun in 16ga x 11.15x65R, and thought to share it here. This one also came with an extra set of 16ga. shotgun barrels.

As is typical of European Cape Guns, this one has the rifle barrel on the right, and the shotgun barrel on the left. English Cape guns are the opposite with the rifle barrel on the left, and the shotgun barrel on the right. I'm not sure what the reasoning is for this difference, but that's the way they are all made.

I had an extra vintage take-down case laying around, so I modified it to hold the gun with both barrels, and left some room for a few accessories.

Although the 11.15x65R is an obsolete old World cartridge, I was able to make a couple of cartridges using brass 410ga shotgun cases. The 410ga brass case dimensions are nearly identical to the original cartridge, except they are a little short by about 2/10 inches. With modest loading they should work just fine. I can't wait to shoot this one, maybe taking it hunting this Fall.

If anyone has any information about this rifle caliber, or the gun's maker, I'd appreciate your feedback. And, as always, your comments are most welcome.

Here's the specs from the auction (with corrections)

(Pre-World War I) 26 - 3/4" rifle/shotgun barrels are gold inlaid "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne Kreiensen" in milled out portion of full length matted rib fitted with one standing leaf rear sight and silver bead front. 29 - 1/2" double shotgun barrels have the same marking in silver on matted concave game rib. Both barrel sets are stamped with imperial German nitro proofs with no date stamp. Shotgun barrels are stamped "16", and rifle barrel with caliber "10.5 mm" (bore) .438 groove diameter straight cartridge 2-1/2" long with base diameter .480, rim diameter .520. Coin finished top lever sidelock action features non-automatic safety, pin type cocking indicators in top of action, crossbolt third fastener, and double triggers (front set). Action is engraved with near full coverage nicely cut and shaded semi relief scrolling acanthus. On lockplates this treatment frames game scenes; left side depicts a roebuck and doe in open meadow, with a flying pheasant in background. Right side has scene of leaping stag with flushing grouse in foreground. There is a puff of smoke obscuring barrel of rifle being fired by hunter in background. Steel trigger guard is engraved with matching scroll. Relatively plain European walnut horn capped pistol grip buttstock measures 13 - 1/2" over ribbed horn buttplate. Stock features right hand shadow line cheekpiece, point pattern checkering, and a sling loop matching that on barrels. Matching splinter forend with inlet schnabel horn tip has Deeley release. Weight: 6 lbs 6 oz. (with either set of barrels in place)































--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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DarylS
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Re: Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" [Re: buckstix]
      #338550 - 01/03/20 05:57 AM

Interesting rifle/shotgun, buckstix. Very nice!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" [Re: DarylS]
      #338551 - 01/03/20 06:32 AM

first class combination, this was a very expensive gun before the great war
11,15x65R loaded with BP to the top will never dissapoint you!

dont want to buy guns anymore but this is something to break down

smartest way to make brass would be 9,3x74R, imho






--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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buckstix
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Re: Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" [Re: lancaster]
      #338554 - 01/03/20 08:53 AM

Quote:

Interesting rifle/shotgun, buckstix. Very nice!



Hello Daryl_S
Thanks for the reply

Quote:

first class combination, this was a very expensive gun before the great war
11,15x65R loaded with BP to the top will never dissapoint you!

dont want to buy guns anymore but this is something to break down

smartest way to make brass would be 9,3x74R, imho



Hello lancaster,
Thanks for the reply.

I'm afraid 9.3x74R brass won't work well in this chamber. Its too small. My chamber cast shows different than your drawing. The closest case with a body size close to my chamber is the 30 Blaser cartridge, which has a base dia. of .479". I have some of this brass ordered.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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93x64mm
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Re: Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" [Re: lancaster]
      #338555 - 01/03/20 09:03 AM

Buckstix - you certainly have an eye for these don't you!

Could use it with slugs in the 16g side if you need too - but only BP or is this Nitro proofed?
Marvellous piece, beautifully done & kept.

Good thinking there Lancaster about the 9.3x74mm cases, at least the length will be correct if not the head stamps!
Bertram Brass does make the 11.15mm brass quite a few, but not in a 65mm length!


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buckstix
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Re: Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" [Re: 93x64mm]
      #338560 - 01/03/20 02:28 PM

Quote:

Buckstix - you certainly have an eye for these don't you!

Could use it with slugs in the 16g side if you need too - but only BP or is this Nitro proofed?
Marvellous piece, beautifully done & kept.

Good thinking there Lancaster about the 9.3x74mm cases, at least the length will be correct if not the head stamps!
Bertram Brass does make the 11.15mm brass quite a few, but not in a 65mm length!



Hello 93x64mm
Thanks for the reply

Yes, this one is fully Nitro Proofed. I do like Cape guns. I bought a second one at the same auction. Another German Cape gun in 16-9.3x72R caliber made by Meffert. (see below) Additional pictures of the Meffert are here. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=338576&an=0&page=0#Post338576



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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DarylS
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Re: Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" [Re: buckstix]
      #338588 - 02/03/20 12:16 PM

Well, not a lot of taper on that case, either. .011", or 5 1/2 thou. per side.

That is what my .375/06IMP has. A very 'modern' idea for an old rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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buckstix
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Re: Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" [Re: DarylS]
      #338609 - 03/03/20 08:01 AM

Quote:

Well, not a lot of taper on that case, either. .011", or 5 1/2 thou. per side.

That is what my .375/06IMP has. A very 'modern' idea for an old rifle.



Hello Daryl_S
Thanks for the reply.

I'll be shooting this very soon.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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DarylS
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Re: Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" [Re: buckstix]
      #338617 - 03/03/20 04:55 PM

Fun gun, for sure. Looking forward to the results.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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93x64mm
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Re: Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" [Re: DarylS]
      #338621 - 03/03/20 10:32 PM

Quote:

Fun gun, for sure. Looking forward to the results.



You're not the only one there mate, Buckstix's certainly does a marvellous & thorough job on testing!


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buckstix
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Re: Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" [Re: 93x64mm]
      #338622 - 03/03/20 10:38 PM

Quote:

Fun gun, for sure. Looking forward to the results.



Hello Daryl_S
Thanks for the reply

Quote:

You're not the only one there mate, Buckstix's certainly does a marvelous & thorough job on testing!



Hello 93x64mm
Thanks for the reply.

Components should arrive today. Then just need to wait for the weather to get better.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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lancaster
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Re: Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" [Re: DarylS]
      #338636 - 04/03/20 06:23 AM

Quote:

Well, not a lot of taper on that case, either. .011", or 5 1/2 thou. per side.

That is what my .375/06IMP has. A very 'modern' idea for an old rifle.




basic for the 11,15x65R ( also 11,15x60R and 11,15x52R is the 410/36 ga brass case)

thats because its a 11,15x65R LK
LK means Lancaster Kugel this means Lancaster = center fire shotgun case + Kugel = bullet

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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m4220
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Re: Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" [Re: lancaster]
      #338646 - 04/03/20 11:59 AM

Buckstix, I have a handful of original 11.15x65R LK cartridges stached away if you should need any measurement taken in your loading endevor.

Cheers
m4220


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buckstix
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Re: Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" [Re: m4220]
      #338659 - 04/03/20 03:38 PM

Quote:

basic for the 11,15x65R ( also 11,15x60R and 11,15x52R is the 410/36 ga brass case)

thats because its a 11,15x65R LK
LK means Lancaster Kugel this means Lancaster = center fire shotgun case + Kugel = bullet



Hello lancaster,
Thanks for the reply

Quote:

Buckstix, I have a handful of original 11.15x65R LK cartridges stached away if you should need any measurement taken in your loading endevor.

Cheers
m4220



Hello m4220,
Thanks for the reply

The only existing cartridge that comes close to the desired dimensions is the 30 R Blaser Case. The case is slightly longer than needed. The head diameter is exactly correct and only the rim needs reducing because its .010" too big in dia. I ordered 20 pcs RWS brass and modified 5 of them as shown in the pictures below.

1. original 30 R Blaser case
2. neck expanded to .366 dia using the expander ball of a 9.3x72R die
3. neck expanded to .416 dia using the expander ball of a 416 Rigby die
4. neck expanded to .429 dia using the expander ball of a 444 Marlin die
5. case trimmed to length & reduced the rim to .520" dia
6. 218g 44 Colt heeled bullet
7. loaded cartridge with 30g 2400 - WLR primer
8. fire-formed case after shooting

The fire-formed cases are near the exact original dimensions of the 10.5x65R case with only a few minor wrinkles remaining. I will anneal the cases and fire-form them once more before the final loading.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Pre-World War I - Cape Gun - "H. Burgsmuller & Sohne" [Re: buckstix]
      #338683 - 05/03/20 05:33 AM

Nice! Reminds me. I have some cases to expand the necks of, for a friend from Spain. TKS

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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