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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
John Dickson & Sons 12 bore Shot and Ball Gun
      #272616 - 04/11/15 10:52 PM

Hey guys,

Chasing your opinions on this.

It's a John Dickson & Sons 12 bore shot and ball gun. The seller says its smooth bore right through, that it dates to 1898 and is black powder proofed.

Does it look right (pretty sure the butt stock is a replacement but that doesnt bother me. Well, what i'm trying to ask is IS it a Shot and Ball gun?

Case isn't original to the gun.

Cheers,
I'll be paying for it tomorrow if all is good













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gungadoug
.333 member


Reged: 13/08/12
Posts: 285
Loc: NM
Re: John Dickson & Sons 12 bore Shot and Ball Gun [Re: Ash]
      #272617 - 05/11/15 12:07 AM

Pics of the barrel flats should tell the tale. Smoothbore? Possibly invisible rifling? barrel wall thickness? Keep us posted!
Doug

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Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: John Dickson & Sons 12 bore Shot and Ball Gun [Re: gungadoug]
      #272618 - 05/11/15 12:23 AM

This is the only pic i have of the barrel flats.
Seller says it's smooth bore and that the bores are in good condition. Don't know wall thickness etc.



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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: John Dickson & Sons 12 bore Shot and Ball Gun [Re: Ash]
      #272619 - 05/11/15 12:36 AM

You'll be able to measure the wall thickness after you buy it!
Sights look correct for ball.

Looks like a replacement fore-end to match the buttstock would be a good idea too (assuming those lines are cracks).

Can't see any "Not for Ball" markings. Although they are sometimes on the underside of the barrels ahead of the flats, the seller would hardly fib about that.

Quote:

bores are in good condition


If the asking price is sensible, I wouldn't hesitate.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
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www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: John Dickson & Sons 12 bore Shot and Ball Gun [Re: Marrakai]
      #272623 - 05/11/15 02:16 AM

The 13/1 mark is for a standard bore diameter of .719". A 13/1 gun can go up to .728" before it is out of proof. It looks like there is a diamond proof mark as well but I cannot clearly see what that mark is. Those marks look consistent for Birmingham proofing between 1887 and 1896 or from 1896 to 1904 if the max load weight is added, for example "1 1/8 oz MAX". Unfortunately, we cannot see enough in the photos.

The forearm looks pretty old and worn to me, cracked as well.

In some of the photos the barrels look like they might be twist steel. Are my eyes decieving me?

Black powder gun means you will have very limited options for factory ammo. Reloading would be the way to go even for shot.

The sights are set up for ball. I question the originality of the rear sight because it appears to lack a registration mark to correspond with the mark on the rib just in front of it. But the registration mark on the rib does suggest there was another blade sight, perhaps a folding sight similar to those on Paradox guns. Folding sights are not robust and it is plausible that one broke and was replaced with a standing blade. I am speculating. The height and shape of the rib, especially in the rear, also suggest this was originally made for ball. No matter, if you are primarily interested in this as a ball gun the current sight, original or not, should work fine.

Your biggest concern should be regarding regulation. Will the gun regulate round balls? Will you be able to find a regulation load? If it can put two balls into 6" at 50 yards then you have a usable double gun. If it puts two round balls 18" apart at 50 yards you absolutely do not.

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: John Dickson & Sons 12 bore Shot and Ball Gun [Re: Ash]
      #272637 - 05/11/15 04:44 AM


If there is no letters or markings that states `BALL&SHOT` I wouldn´t buy it!.

If this gun is a Ball&Shot gun it would say so.

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Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: John Dickson & Sons 12 bore Shot and Ball Gun [Re: rigbymauser]
      #272657 - 05/11/15 08:04 AM

I think those are cracks in the fore end, yeah.

And yep to twist steel barrels - however I'm totally alright with loading rounds with black powder myself.

As for regulating - won't know unless I get it.

I'll give him a call and ask if it's got any other markings and wall thickness. What should it be?

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LesLeeSpeed
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Reged: 14/11/13
Posts: 223
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: John Dickson & Sons 12 bore Shot and Ball Gun [Re: Ash]
      #272658 - 05/11/15 08:50 AM

Hi Ash,
Why don't you contact Dicksons directly, if the payment is imminent, you could even ring them. Their shop is still operating in Edinburgh, I've been in there, and I'm pretty sure they have good records.
Les

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Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: John Dickson & Sons 12 bore Shot and Ball Gun [Re: LesLeeSpeed]
      #272743 - 06/11/15 08:05 PM

Mixed bag of answers here hmm..I'll wait a bit. The fellow wasnt keen to part with it but was willing.

Off to the jewelers to get a special ring made tommorow

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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: John Dickson & Sons 12 bore Shot and Ball Gun [Re: Ash]
      #272808 - 07/11/15 10:26 AM

Ash - follow LesLeeSpeed's advice and call Dicksons direct

For the cost of a phone call (even international rates) they will give you the info from the sales ledger

I have called them twice, (about Alexander Henry falling block single shot rifles, of which they hold the relevant info) and got an immediate response about the sales ledger giving date of sale, who bought it, and most importantly the standard of the rifle and the details of it

Good luck whatever happens

TH44

Edited by TH44 (07/11/15 10:28 AM)

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