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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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penwolf
.224 member


Reged: 14/03/06
Posts: 25
Loc: Tennessee
Source for Round Balls
      #98468 - 06/03/08 08:01 AM

Sense I don't cast lead I am in the need of a source for round balls. Do any of you know where I can buy hard cast (WW or harder) balls to use in my full bore (.690) double shotgun? I'm not sure but I think about .685 or slightly smaller will do. I will be using plastic wads reversed with petals trimed back to about 3/8". I also intend to use a black powder substitute.
Norman

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26579
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Source for Round Balls [Re: penwolf]
      #98574 - 07/03/08 07:11 AM

Try trackofthewolf - they may have swaged as well as cast. They'll be pure lead only.
; Time to buy a $15.00 Lee mould at .690", a 10 pound Lee pot for around $10.00, a cheap ladle or bent large spoon and get some WW from a garage near you. Then, a coleman stove and have at it. Free WW balls after a bit of casting to recover the cost of the equipment.
; At the velocity you'll be able to get, WW is as hard as necessary. They'll smash a shoudler on a moose and exit the far side. Should be enough.
; Upsideown shot cups, with eveything cut off(and thrown away) except the gas check work best for keeping the ball centred in the bore. This works better than using the shotcup's shortened petals for centreing the ball. I've done it both ways. So far, the best shotcups to use are the steel-shop cups. They don't have a cushion section, so you just cut the petals off, leaving a cupped inner part that holds the ball perfectly in the middle of the bore.
; if you want to use Black Powder or Pyrodex, you'll need to ut a barrier betwen the plastic and the black powder. Black powder will melt the plastic onto the bore. I don't know about the phony powders - I don't use them - too corrosive. BP fouling is only hygroscopic, not corrosive. Phony BP's fouling is actually corrosive. They don't have the ash content to neutralize the salts and acids produced as in real BP- something like that.
; Pictured is a JeffTanner mould - about $30.00 from the UK. Handles are Lyman or RCBS. Jeff makes any size ordered.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Source for Round Balls [Re: DarylS]
      #98616 - 07/03/08 09:11 PM

Daryl,Interesting comment about centring the ball.
Have you ever tried a greased saddle felt wad with the centre punched out.
It centres and seals the ball and lubes the barrel .
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26579
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Source for Round Balls [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #98648 - 08/03/08 01:59 AM

Al- no, haven't tried the perferated wads. I have used hollowed fibre wads to improve patterns with cylinder bores, mostly muzzleloaders. I thought about the plastic wad base idea on picking one up at the R&G club trap range one day, and the thought hit me that if inverted, the cup would hold an undersized ball in the middle of the bore, allowing accurate shooting from any choked or unchoked gun. After taht, I procurred a double gun, chopped the tubes, installed sigths and went to work on the idea with success almost immediately. All it took was a bit of fiddling with loads and I matched the 7 dram BP 'heavy' 12 bore load listed in WW Greener's book. I did not enjoy shooting the actual 7 dram Black powder loads, though. Smokeless duplications kick about 1/2 to 1/3 as much and are just fine. As long as the velocity was 1,500fps or a bit more, the tubes regulated very well. 4" at 50 yards and 10" at 100. Sights make a big difference.
; A friend of mine, uses pillow ticking for patching undersized .684" balls in his duck gun and gets 5" at 50 yards with just the double bead in a 'figure 8' pattern.
: OxYoke sells or used to sell wool/felt wads - but at $8.00 per hundred and thousands of spent shotwads free for picking up, I stuck with the plastic wads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Source for Round Balls [Re: DarylS]
      #98650 - 08/03/08 02:21 AM

Daryl, in working up loads, I believe you have mentioned in the past that you use the same powder charge as that listed in a book for a load using the same weight shot, correct?

Thus, the charge for a 1 oz. shot load would be used with a 1 oz. slug.

What wad materials do you use to adjust the wad column to provide proper crimp?

In summation, are you saying that switching from {proper shot wad column and shot} to {proper ball wad column and ball} is as easy as adjusting the ball and wad column to provide for a firm crimp, using the same charge weight-of-ball for weight-of-shot?

Reason I ask for the principles here is that in reading the various shotshell loading books they always state that the loads should be used exactly as published, and I do not believe I have ever seen a published load book that outlines a standard procedure for working up loads as is commonly done with rifle and pistol ammo.

Using normal "rifle principles", I would think that using a 1 oz ball with a POWDER CHARGE safe for 1 1/8 oz. of shot would add a safety margin to the load. Does this make sense?

I have an Ithaca M87 with supposed straight-bored barrel. Using the ID fingers on a dial caliper, the muzzle measures .712. What ball size would be used with this gun?



--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (08/03/08 04:56 AM)

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penwolf
.224 member


Reged: 14/03/06
Posts: 25
Loc: Tennessee
Re: Source for Round Balls [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98654 - 08/03/08 03:09 AM

Daryl_S , thank you for the great info. This is why everyone comes to you, your knowledge and willingness to share with others. You are an asset to all of us. Thank you.
Norman

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penwolf
.224 member


Reged: 14/03/06
Posts: 25
Loc: Tennessee
Re: Source for Round Balls [Re: penwolf]
      #98655 - 08/03/08 03:15 AM

I have been giving it some thought and maybe smokeless powder would be the way to go. Far less cleaning and less felt recoil. What powder and begaining loads would you recommend? I will use the smooth-bore for boar, black bear, and moose mostly at 50 yds. just possibily out to 100 yds.
Norman

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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Source for Round Balls [Re: penwolf]
      #98674 - 08/03/08 05:31 AM

If you don't want to cast your own, I'd suggest placing an ad at
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php?

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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penwolf
.224 member


Reged: 14/03/06
Posts: 25
Loc: Tennessee
Re: Source for Round Balls [Re: AkMike]
      #98689 - 08/03/08 09:13 AM

AkMike, thanks for the info. I'll check it out.
N

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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Source for Round Balls [Re: penwolf]
      #98736 - 08/03/08 04:10 PM

They're a good bunch of guys. Don't be surprised if they have what you want at a fair price.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Source for Round Balls [Re: DarylS]
      #98750 - 08/03/08 09:15 PM

Daryl ,what size ball are you using in your no choke barrels?
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26579
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Source for Round Balls [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #98765 - 09/03/08 01:56 AM

I've a .725" ball mould from Jeff Tammer. It's the largest ball and mould in the picture. I use the wire strippers with the little cuttouts, to snip off the sprue, then a single swipe with a rasp makes the ball perfectly smooth so there's no sprue, as in the other two balls, a .684" left, and .715" in the centre.
: The .725" makes 575gr. in WW metal. I don't cast the large ones in pure lead due to needing the pure for my muzzleloaders. Afterall, a .7" ball needs no expansion and a straight WW ball doesn't. They'll mark a bit, but that's about it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26579
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Source for Round Balls [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98767 - 09/03/08 02:10 AM

You are right - the books say to use their data exactly as published. You will note the loads that produce usable (for ball) velocties are developed with the slower burning powders. There are no 1,350fps loads listed with 700X, Red Dot or other fast burners with 1 1/8 oz. balls. A 1 ounce ball would be about right for a modified choke 16 bore - way too small for a 12. Fast powders are used in the 1,000fps to 1,200fps trap and skeet loads. They are also the loads that develope maximum 12 bore presssures and must be used exactly as the book says.
; The loads and powders I referred to, generally produce much lower pressures and are the higher velocity shot loads using 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 ounce of shot. The powders I mentioned I'd used were 7625, 4756 and Herco to name 3. Blue dot and 571 are also powders that can be used, along with Hodgdon's longshot, although I haven't tried it. If someone locally stocked it, I would - it shows shot loads to 1,500fps.
; Now, what I've found is these higher velocity shot loads, when substituted with a round ball and the fiber and plastic wads to get the right column height, actually still develop less pressure than when shot is used. This stands to reason, due to the length of the 'bearing' surface of the shot, which creates friction. The ball only has the length of the plastci cas check bearing, hardly any 'scrub' at all, is there - at least, that's one theory for less pressure. Also, if you have Lyman's shotshell handbooks #2 and newer, you'll see their loads for .690" round balls, to 575gr. slugs are considerably higher than listed for like weighed shot loads. Also, they use a variety of fibre, card and gas-check-type wads. The PGS gas seal comes to mind - not available here - make my own from free trap wads.
; I hope this helps explain. If any further questions, don't hesitate to ask. There are no secrets.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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