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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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NitroXAdministrator
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12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles
      #380699 - 07/11/23 08:24 PM

I've just finished listening to Patterson's "Man-eaters of Tsavo" again.

He used a 303 rifle and a 12-bore shotgun during the incidents. Hecalso recommended a 303 a 450 Express and a 12-bore shotgun for safaris to East Africa

It got me thinking about the versatility of the 12-bore and it's versatility. And it's application today.

Patterson mentions using shot and ball.

I remember Marrakai looking for a 12-bore paradox to use on the goose and duck wetlands, but be versatile for ball on pigs and what not, that might also be encountered.

Please relate your experience, experiences, and knowledge on the subject. Using ball, slugs, brenneckes in shotguns, paradoxes, exploras, and also shot. Or ball and projectiles in a 12-bord rifle. What ranges have you shot game at? What game? How accurate is it? How good is shotgunning from a paradox type barrel? Anything else?

Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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85lc
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #380702 - 07/11/23 10:15 PM

John,

I remember reading Patterson's account and it seemed that a 12 bore paradox gun would have worked well for him. While I do have a paradox (Cogswell & Harrison), I really used it for quail as I use a BSW 8mm DR for deer hunting.

I did buy a rifle choke for my goose gun to see how well it works and it seems to stabilize slugs very well. If we get a chance to hunt hogs, I would like to try that gun.

--------------------
RB


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 85lc]
      #380706 - 08/11/23 01:12 AM

Patterson used a 12-bore shotgun, not a paradox.

However a paradox or Explora would be better. \

Steel shot might be an issue nowadays.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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DarylS
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #380708 - 08/11/23 03:09 AM

No paradox, but did develop RB loads for a 12 bore SxS with "FLUID STEEL" barrels. I'm assuming it was an early 1900's, export shotgun from the UK. I cut the tubes to 24 or 25" IIRC. The original chokes were .705", or improved modified. The bores were .724" - a "tight" 12.
I used BP as well as smokeless and found smokeless loads with 7625, 4756 and blue dot (no longer have the data) that shot a .682" round ball, held in the centre of the bore with the cut-off base of a WAA12 white trap shot cup. I used another one, cup-down on the power with whatever fiber cushion wads in between for the correct wad height to get a star crimp.
I was pushing the balls with smokeless, at the same speed (1,500fps) as the 7 dram black powder load I finalized with. The BP load of 191gr. was really hard to shoot in the light 12 bore, but the smokeless loads also shot to the "sights" I installed on the 'raised' rib.
The velocity was roughly the same as I got in my .69 cal. ML, using a mere 6 drams with a tightly patched round ball.
Accuracy wise, I could plant a right and a left on a 10" square piece of steel at 100 meters, shooting offhand. I had mounted a scope on the gun for load testing. It worked very well.
Shot only one deer with it, at about 100yards. The ball hit the deer, must have been on an exhale, between the spine and the lungs, making a visible hole, both sides.
I lost that deer and actually searched for it, for 3 FULL days. I'm sure I walked past it's dead body at some point, maybe, but could not find it. I am or was a good tracker, yet could not find the deer. There was no blood trail at all. It should have been an easy kill, but I guess, just too long a distance. sickened me to lose the deer and I did not hunt the rest of the fall. This was mid October and no snow.
Oh, further note, with the BP load, I learned to put a hard card on the BLACK powder, as if a plastic wad is on the power, the bore will be coated with melted plastic. Had to use a tornado brush (spooled stainless) to get it out.
Oh, further, the first shot I took with the BP load, split the stock which I had to repair before further testing.
From W.W.Greener's book, there were 3 BP loads listed, 110gr.= 4 drams, 150gr. = 5 1/2 drams and 191gr. = 7 drams.
I sold or traded the gun to my buddy Keith, who sold it to a friend of his, who used it for grouse and moose.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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85lc
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #380715 - 08/11/23 07:53 AM

Daryl,

That is a very interesting, informative writeup. I wam surprised you used 7 drams as I thought that 3 1/2 drams was the load for 12 bore guns. I don't reload BP cartridge guns and only load my 18 ga Barnes DR which is a muzzle loader. It is interesting to see WW Greener with loads up to 7 drams.

It is amazing that a deer with a 3/4" hole shot between its spine & lungs will run. One of my friend told me about shooting a deer that had been shot with an arrow the previous year and somehow survived.

--------------------
RB


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DarylS
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 85lc]
      #380718 - 08/11/23 09:31 AM

The deer dropped and I thought - cool! Then, while reloading that barrel, he got up and bolted. At that time, I got to see the hole in his right side, just down from where the spine would be. By the time I got the gun closed and auto-matic safety off(it was worn smooth and I was wearing gloves - bad move for me, he was gone. I sat down and waited a good 15 minutes., before heading down to the impact site to start tracking him. In those days, I was a good tracker.
I am positive I passed that one dead, while trying to find racks that evening. He was throwing one foot weirdly, is the only way I was able to track him. The next day, all I could do was to continue area searching for him. Did the same the next day, no luck. There was a grizzly or two (sow and cub) in that immediate area so I'm sure it wasn't a complete waste.
Lots of elk and moose have been shot years after surviving a non-fatal arrow wound.
As arrows kill by cutting vital organs, bleeding the animal, if a blood filled organ is not struck and the arrow falls out before infection sets in, the animal will likely survive with a healed wound.
Deer have been seen grazing within seconds of having a super sharp - double bladed arrow pass completely through both lungs. They then drop, or take a couple wobbly steps and drop when bled out. This is less likely to happen with a mechanical or multi-blade broadhead with a chisel point as the point itself hurts at impact before the blades are deployed. That's my opinion on this phenomenon of deer going back to feeding after having a complete pass-through with an arrow.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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85lc
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #380719 - 08/11/23 09:58 AM

Darly,

I shot a young deer at probably 20 -m30 yards with a 45 caliber percussion rifle loaded with 110 gr 3F. We were ground hunting and were laying down near a trail. I heard the deer approach and thye only shot I had was a face on shot so shot him in the chest. The deer went down and I jumped up to reload. When loaded, I saw another young deer about 10 - 15 yards standing broadside from where the 1st deer dropped. I was so tempted to shoot this deer (which is legal in Georgia). I decided no top shoot because I would then have to drag out two deer, my rifle and my kit. Well, I walked thru the brush and my deer was gone. Hmmm, likely he got up and that is what I saw. If only for a double rifle, I could have walked over immediately and finsihed the joib.

We tracked that deer for hours, finding each place where it lay down (puddle of blood). It started with finding a drop of blood every 10' to 15'. However, at the end, we couldn't ind any signs. Becue of all the leaves and brush. there were not any tracks that we could find.

I agree about an arrow. No real shock, just bleed out.

--------------------
RB


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 85lc]
      #380745 - 30/11/23 03:25 AM

Where were we?

I'm a bit lost on these. As shotguns, they have more open chokes? Or no chokes at all?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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85lc
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #380756 - 30/11/23 04:22 AM

I believe the Lancaster oval bore are open choke. My Cogsworth is a Modified.

--------------------
RB


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DarylS
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 85lc]
      #380757 - 30/11/23 04:29 AM

Quote:

Daryl,

That is a very interesting, informative writeup. I wam surprised you used 7 drams as I thought that 3 1/2 drams was the load for 12 bore guns. I don't reload BP cartridge guns and only load my 18 ga Barnes DR which is a muzzle loader. It is interesting to see WW Greener with loads up to 7 drams.

It is amazing that a deer with a 3/4" hole shot between its spine & lungs will run. One of my friend told me about shooting a deer that had been shot with an arrow the previous year and somehow survived.





W.W. Greener's 9th edition of THE BOOK lists the 3 loads.
110gr. 153gr. and 191gr.

If there was a 3 1/2 dram load, which is 95gr., it is likely a light SxS load.

In my SxS, 191gr. shot to the same 'group' at 100 meters. What was interesting, was that smokeless that developed the same speed of 1,550fps, kicked about 50% of the BP load, if that much and shot identically.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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3DogMike
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #380760 - 30/11/23 05:41 AM

NOTE: My opinion only
As to the mentioned different loads. One needs to remember that the guns in question; Paradox, Explora, Jungle Gun, Shot & Ball, etc. were not all "mixed use" as in for wing shooting, small game, and larger game.

There were "Paradox" (I will use just this word to describe them all) guns made to quite different weights depending upon what the owner expected to use them for. The light weight 3 1/2 Dram ones were certainly expected to be used for wing shooting, small game, deer, etc. and developed 1000-1100 fps with typical round ball or conical.
Then there were the 12 bore guns made to weigh 11-13 lbs that were undoubtedly meant not for any wing shooting but for the largest game. This is where those mentioned heavy 7 Dram loads were used and they gave 1500+ FPS velocity to the round balls and conicals.

I have a full rifle Lyon & Lyon 12 Bore weighing 13lbs 1oz proved for 191 grains (7 Drams), later on the makers and sportsmen found that the "rifled choke" system offered equal accuracy with allegedly less recoil & greater velocity compared to the fully rifled arms.
7 Dram 12 Bores are/were not rare at the time and ARE real thumpers. The heavy 12 Bore guns seemed to be much used in India against all sorts of large game. Whether that same heavy 12 Bore was prudent against Buffalo, Gaur, or Elephant was/is subject to debate then and now.

-Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

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gatsby
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 3DogMike]
      #380880 - 03/12/23 03:48 PM

Holland 12 bore paradox guns were all in the 7lb range. For nitro loadings they were proofed for 28grs to 42grs of cordite. Each gun in addition to being regulated for conical, they were also patterned for shot.
Westley 12 bores followed suit. The super magnum explora had ballistics similar to a 12 or 13lb 12 bore rifle but were generally a 7.5 lb gun. Truly a gun capable for snipe to buffalo.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: gatsby]
      #380882 - 03/12/23 05:25 PM

If the 13 lb "paradoxes" were not for wing shooting, what purpose did the shot loads have?

I don't accept they were for "buckshot" against medium game. Why would someone use buckshot when they could use a ball or conical?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DarylS
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: gatsby]
      #380893 - 04/12/23 02:56 AM

Quote:

Holland 12 bore paradox guns were all in the 7lb range. For nitro loadings they were proofed for 28grs to 42grs of cordite. Each gun in addition to being regulated for conical, they were also patterned for shot.
Westley 12 bores followed suit. The super magnum explora had ballistics similar to a 12 or 13lb 12 bore rifle but were generally a 7.5 lb gun. Truly a gun capable for snipe to buffalo.




That is about what my SxS weighed and it kicked HARD with 7 drams & a light, 482gr. ball.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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3DogMike
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #380894 - 04/12/23 03:02 AM

Quote:

If the 13 lb "paradoxes" were not for wing shooting, what purpose did the shot loads have?

I don't accept they were for "buckshot" against medium game. Why would someone use buckshot when they could use a ball or conical?



As the "Paradox" (read rifled choke) guns were offered in lighter weights, as well as heavy, the shot loads would have been of the lighter guns. The 11-13 lb guns almost certainly for large game with ball or conical. Maybe a heavy shorter barrel version for buckshot used in a Howda for Tiger stopping?
-Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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gatsby
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #380900 - 04/12/23 08:32 AM

A 13lb 12 bore smooth bore ball gun could be used for shot. 13 lb is the starting point for 8 gauge shotguns.
Similar use.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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gatsby
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 3DogMike]
      #380902 - 04/12/23 08:57 AM

Holland and Westley never produced any heavy 12 bore rifled choke guns.
Holland released a few 10 paradoxes between 7 and 13 lbs. most 8 dram 10 paradoxes were 13 lb guns.
Westley was content with the SME. Leslie Taylor theorized an 1800fps load could be developed for the gun.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by gatsby (04/12/23 09:18 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: gatsby]
      #380913 - 04/12/23 03:06 PM

Is anyone making paradox style barrels today? The answer must be yes as Colin/Ahmed577 had a barrel set made for his 10-bore Purdey I believe, if I remember correctly.

I would like to see them more common again. Price might be a detractor.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 3DogMike]
      #380914 - 04/12/23 03:15 PM

Quote:

Maybe a heavy shorter barrel version for buckshot used in a Howda for Tiger stopping?




From reading Corbett again, I was listening to a couple audio books while the NE forums were down, such use would result in lots of wounded tigers. If one had a paradox, why wouldn't one use a ball or conical?

If H&H and WR didn't make any heavy 12-bore paradoxes, who did?

I think the lighter guns fit the mould better, shot, wing shooting, and medium to big game use.

***

I'd like Marrakai to chime in. He was looking for and acquired an actual paradox style vintage 12-bore. For actual use. I'd like to hear if it's had actual use, of both sorts. Ducks and geese, with the possibility of boar and buffalo?

***

In the age and anti gunner, anti hunting introduced steel shot, especially on wetlands, is it the final death of the paradox concept? I guess bismuth can still be used. I can get only 4 shot, 12 gauge bismuth loaded shells. At a price ... No bismuth shot though. Luckily 4 shot works well on ducks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DarylS
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #380917 - 04/12/23 04:28 PM

My late hunting partner had a SxS .410 that I tried to get him to let me rifle the full choke on the left barrel. Nadda.
I thought it would make a neat little .410" deer rifle/grouse gun, using BP and grooved lubricated 200gr. bullets. It was chambered 3", so the cases would hold enough powder for the job.
I merely brought this up to perhaps give someone an idea.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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gatsby
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #380918 - 04/12/23 04:56 PM

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/w...11-c-b844126b78

Not a paradox per say but you just missed one at Holts

--------------------
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Marrakai
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: gatsby]
      #380919 - 04/12/23 05:26 PM

Quote:

I'd like Marrakai to chime in.




Alas, my nitro Paradox has not yet had a field trip, but it did well in the NT "State" titles last month. We have since talked about a "bore-gun only" trip to the back country hunting blocks but with the build-up storms all around us now, it will have to wait till next dry season.

I have been trying to develop coated Fosbery projectiles to reduce leading in the rifled chokes but the wet-acetone method is proving difficult with such large projectiles and the short ~15 second window to get complete coverage. One of our club members is very successful with this though, so I shall persevere.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #380922 - 04/12/23 06:21 PM

H&H made 12 bore Paradox's in several charge weights including different Magnum loads, in both black powder and Nitro. Consequently they were made in different gun weights to suit the different loads, the heavier the charge the heavier the weight of the gun. The Nitro Magnum guns with the heaviest charge were made using Double Rifle actions and had back action locks, as well as 2 3/4 chambers. Obviously this defeated the initial design of the original paradox which was to have a light well balanced shotgun that could effectively shoot a Fosberry projectile to 100 yards, however the heavier guns were made due to demand.

Westley Richards also had standard and Magnum guns.

Holland and Holland have a Paradox in their current line up and have had for quite some time. A couple have come up for sale at Holts over more recent times.

I purchased a Nitro Paradox myself recently, A 1930's CW Andrews of London/Birmingham with 29 inch barrels and sighted for 50 and 100 yards, it has the original case in good condition. It was owned by the one time Governor of Malay.

I have been collecting components and have been lucky enough to be able to gather together lead, powder, primers, wads and cases for over 3500 shots. Also luckily for me there are quite a number of very experienced Paradox and bore gun owners in the BGRC who have vast experience in loading.

I intend to use mine for both types of game as originally intended, and could have used it recently on a rice trip where we shot a good number of birds, but also for the first time pigs have appeared in reasonable numbers on the property, and deer have also now been sighted by the farmer. If I had the Paradox with me I could have easily bagged at least four pigs, so very keen to get it working accurately.

I will also be using it at the BGRC shoots and we in the process of developing some new Bore gun events using animal type targets.

Very excited to say the least.

Matt.

--------------------
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grandveneur
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #380927 - 04/12/23 10:55 PM

https://egun.de/market/item.php?id=19369113

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DarylS
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Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: grandveneur]
      #380935 - 05/12/23 04:27 AM

Sounds GREAT, Matt. I 'take it' this is a 12 bore. The barrels seem long to me, but they are what they are.
What is it regulated for in bullet weights? Marked on the barrels?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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