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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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Omnivorous_Bob
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Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 285
Loc: Montana
8-bore bullets
      #182722 - 29/05/11 06:00 AM

I went to the range this morning to do some load testing, and when I was packing up my targets I noticed these two bullets (the ones on the right and left, center is unfired)on the dirt/gravel berm.




I thought this was a great example of the difference alloy makes. Both were fired over the same charge at a bit over 1300fps. The bullet on the left was a pure lead .875" flat point concial that started out at 1360 grains. It expanded almost 80% and retained 90% of its weight. It was also only .33" thick in the center after starting out at 1.0".

The bullet on the right was cast from Lyman#2 and dropped into water. It started out at 1300 grains and retained 87% of its weight while expanding to .998"

I'm impressed with the expansion of the pure lead and this is making me rethink my plan to use roundballs on waterbuff next year. I know they're not made of sand, but I'm toying with the idea of a "soft" in the right and a solid hardcast in the left, but will have to see how that combo regulates.

Cheers,
Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

Edited by CptCurl (14/06/11 08:55 PM)

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FATBOY404
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Reged: 14/11/09
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Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #182724 - 29/05/11 07:40 AM

Looks to me that you have a "soft" and "solid" for your 8 bore.

The pure lead one is still an awful lot of lead.

Both will be hard on Buff imo.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: FATBOY404]
      #182726 - 29/05/11 08:27 AM

Bob-


The one on the left looks like failure to me.
I wouldn't want to hunt with that bullet/alloy combination.
At that diameter, I wouldn't be concerned with expansion - I'd want to keep the bullet together. Hard roundball would be a ripper from your 8-bore. Have you yet run roundball in that rifle?

Huge grease groove too...
As I seem to recall you burn black in your DR, don't you?
What are you using to fill that big grease groove?

Can you show us your handloading tools please?
Thanks much for sharing this with us!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: tinker]
      #182730 - 29/05/11 10:03 AM

Bob - first glance at the first recovered bullet made me think of an expanded round ball of alloy slightly softer than WW. I have one from my 14 bore that looks almost identical, but it took out a concrete block about 4" thick X 10" X 12" - nothing but chunks less than 3" in size. That was the first power lesson I had with that 'medium/large' bore rifle.

Your bullet, actually being pure lead, shows how amazing pure lead is, in holding together when it should have broken up long ago. Like Bubblegum, it is.

Nice narrow lands and wide grooves in that rifle. Cuts down on pressure, improves speed and cleans up the easiest of all shapes except maybe "Invisible" rifling.

If you have straight WW alloy available I'd try one just for comparrison. That might give you a good penetrating soft.

Lyman #2 alloy is supposed to be around brinel 16 as cast, while WW is in the 10 to 13 range, as cast, making it slightly more ductile than #2, less prone to fractures and chunks breaking off.

Further hardening of a higher antimony alloy might not be as good an idea as first seems, and might not be necessary, either. With higher antimony as in the #2 alloy over say, WW, further hardening will cause a brittle nature, sluffing of material. That may or may not be what you want, I don't know. The retained weight is still pretty good, but bones might cause more weight loss and less penetration overall.

More experimenting - WHAT FUN!!

As you probably understand by now, I really get a charge out of testing variations.

I-too think a RB would work well - of course HA!.

A hardened straight WW ball or bullet will be more ductile, less brittle than one with higher antimony in it, even though they are of the same hardness.

I'm trying to remember back about the 340gr. hardened WW alloy .45 calibre pistol bullets Ross Seyfreid shot the Cape Buffalo with. No breakup and penetration like solids IIRC.

It all comes down to more testing, more shooting.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
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Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: DarylS]
      #182734 - 29/05/11 11:29 AM

I wonder as does Daryl about the exact alloy content of your hardened bullet. Still alot of lead left over on each projectile.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylS
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Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: gatsby]
      #182777 - 30/05/11 04:18 AM

One other thing - a straight, non-hardened WW ball from my 14 bore showed only the very slightest of marking, after smashing through a LOT of moose bone. Now, I know a moose is not a buffalo, nor are it's bones as large - but - I still think too high an antimony content is detrimental.

Again, back to testing?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: DarylS]
      #182783 - 30/05/11 06:15 AM

Tinker, my loading tools are modern and very pedestrian, just a sizing and crimp die in an Ammomaster II, 3 conical molds, and one roundball mold. One of the conical molds is a copy of the original made from two billets of brass by John Miller and is a thing of beauty. Gatsby, who sold me the rifle (Thanks!!), tracked down the owner of the single shot 8-bore that was one digit higher in serial number and had its original mold, from which this copy was made!

I've shot a bunch of roundballs with this gun. They weigh about 1020 and go just over 1500fps with a medium/stiff load of Blue Dot. I shoot BP in my 10 but use mostly Blue Dot in others as its less abusive for the same velocity. Yesterday I was shooting BP and had the headache to show for it, which is no fun at all.

Daryl, I always compare pure lead to bubblegum too. It is amazingly gummy stuff that always seems to strech rather than break.

I've never had a bullet shatter, but may just have been lucky to date. For my practice bullets my scrap alloy is pretty close to WW based one the resulting bullet weights (that is, they're lighter than pure lead but heavier than those cast from Lyman, so I assume a lower tin content).

I've never tested the hardness of my bullets. I think a happy medium might work best, just a bit stiffer that the pure lead. I do remember reading a Ross Seyfired article where he cast bullet noses (that would sometimes be shed after expansion) out of pure lead with a harder alloy for the shank. That sounds like a great idea but I've got a lot of less complex avenues to exhaust first.

Bob



--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

Edited by CptCurl (14/06/11 08:56 PM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26541
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #182790 - 30/05/11 09:03 AM

Casting soft noses can be done, but two pots are needed, and the exact temperatures - AT POURING - are vitally important to get seamless joints. I did it for a short period in testing some .375's and .430's, but gave up as too much hassle- to many rejects which now have pure lead stuck to the alloy so you can't just dump them back in the alloy nor the pure pot.

Since 1,000gr. is pure lead weight for a 7 bore ball at .873" - could your 1,020gr. ball be groove diameter for a slightly oversize 8 bore?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: DarylS]
      #182800 - 30/05/11 12:11 PM

O-Bob-

Thanks for the photo!
That's a great looking mould. Great story too.
I don't recall whether or not you've reported taking game with roundball in that rifle. At that weight and velocity it really is a ripper for sure.

Blue Dot?
I've spoken with JAZ and Gatsby and others about this, but haven't taken the plunge in any of my bore rifles yet. I'm not running such big diameters and charges though - but will likely some day try the Blue Dot in my big-case sixteen bore WR double rifle.
Have you had Armbrust do back to back comparison of BlackPowder and Blue Dot on loads for your rifles?
I'd love to hear the results if you have pressure data.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 285
Loc: Montana
Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: tinker]
      #182810 - 30/05/11 02:34 PM

Tinker, I haven't had any pressure testing done on any of my loads, which is why I generally keep them WELL below minimum if I can find a load that regulates. I'd love to have some tested, but living in AK complicates things (hazmat) and some of my bore guns have 'odd' sizes (1.005", .827", .875") so I've just assumed no on had an appropriate pressure barrel.

All of the pressure data that I have seen on 8, 10, and 12 bore rifles unanimously show that Blue Dot gives an equal or lower pressure then BP loads with the same velocity. That having been said, we all know even the slightest change in a load can have a big effect on pressure and I don't want to discover the exception to the rule!!! Additionally, Blue Dot loads require a hefty wad column due to its low bulk, so you can't load one exactly the same as with BP. In 4" 4-bore I put three 1" felt wads over the card vs one with 12 drams of FFg and 1/2" with 14.

I don't pretend to understand the voodoo that goes on inside the barrel, but my 10-bore would only regulate with Swiss FFFg at 1300fps. I fired Blue Dot loads from 1100fps to 1450fps and they all cross horribly at 30 yards, as did all of the various Goex F, FFg, FFFg, and cartridge loads I tried. For whatever reason the swiss has the right pressure curve and recoil to make things work and the holes touch at 50, so while I sing the praises of Blue Dot it doesn't work for every gun. With bigger rifles the BD loads are vastly more comfortable than BP and have a 'crisper' feel to them. In my 4 the recoil feels like a load with 3-4 drams less powder for a given speed. From my shooting it seems like about 70 grains of Blue dot gives about the same velocity as 10 drams of Goex FFg in 4 and 8 bore, but it is not a direct 7 grains=1 dram equivilent above and below there in my experience. Other folks here probably have more experience with that.

I haven't shot anything with the 8, but will take it to Darwin next summer and can't wait!

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark
Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #182816 - 30/05/11 04:13 PM

Quote:



I don't pretend to understand the voodoo that goes on inside the barrel, but my 10-bore would only regulate with Swiss FFFg at 1300fps. I fired Blue Dot loads from 1100fps to 1450fps and they all cross horribly at 30 yards, as did all of the various Goex F, FFg, FFFg, and cartridge loads I tried. For whatever reason the swiss has the right pressure curve and recoil to make things work and the holes touch at 50, so while I sing the praises of Blue Dot it doesn't work for every gun.
Bob



I believe you hit the nail on the spot. Lots of folks believes when it comes to doublerifles, its all about bulletweight and velocity, but the absorbtion of recoil into the gun also plays a major role. My 10bore loves 9 drams of 1.5F Swiss, but actually shoots okay with BD, to be acceptable within a 50 yard. I am going make up loads for a range session here this summer. I`LL post pictures of the results. I have yet to try .793cal roundballs in the gun. No question BD recoil much less:LOL.

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Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 285
Loc: Montana
Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: rigbymauser]
      #182895 - 31/05/11 07:29 AM

Rigby, I'd love to see more photos and data on your 10. My Tolley looks identical cosmetically but is non-rebounding and only a 5-dram gun for roundballs. 9 drams and conicals is a monster!

I fiddled with mine endlessly for several years before finding the right load. Rifling limited me to RBs, so in vain attempts to get the barrels to uncross I tried heavier charges of slower powders (thinking more recoil without reducing barrel time too much), light charges of smokless and BP in order to increase barrel time, etc. Factory ballistics for my gun were a 700gn ball at 1300fps, but my initial 5-dram load crossed 9" at 30 yards. Probably why I got a good deal on the gun in hindsight!

It seems like the normal rules with DRs don't always apply with BP bore guns, as adding velocity increases recoil and 'swing' but also reduces time in the barrel, and there's no good way I've found to predict which factor will be dominate. What a great excuse for spending more time at the range!

Cheers,
Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #182896 - 31/05/11 08:30 AM

O-Bob, RigbyMauser --

If you have notes from the load development of those rifles, see if you can put together reports on them and start a couple fresh threads.
One thing I really like about this place is that the threads get archived, never deleted. This way when someone in the future (or present!) finds us here at NitroExpress, they can thumb through the texts and glean tips and techniques from your experience.

I'm still settling on our new ranch here in Nevada, and still unpacking the tools and components for my bore rifles.
When I get back in full swing I'll be revisiting old threads and starting new ones as I get back on developing loads for the 20bore and 16bore rifles.

Also, this BlueDot business (although very intriguing) spooks the hell out of me.
Feel free to *at any time you like* detail the process around which you develop and settle on your BlueDot loads.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26541
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: tinker]
      #182903 - 31/05/11 12:49 PM

Quote:

When I get back in full swing I'll be revisiting old threads and starting new ones as I get back on developing loads for the 20bore and 16bore rifles.

Cheers
Tinker



OH BOY-O-BOY

oops

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (31/05/11 11:51 PM)

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
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Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #182920 - 31/05/11 04:39 PM

O-Bob and all.

Actually the Manton takes full 10 drams, which turn the gun into a full recoiling bore-rifle, however the bullets sits a little too high using the 50yard sight. I have used 60-62 grains of blue Dot, but the shots sits a handspread to left, where the blackpowderloads hits dead-on.

We`ll have to do a new tread where all datas are collected on these bore-rifles. I am in!.

I`LL also post results with my Rigby 12bore Ball & Shot gun as soon as I have recieved factory ammo from H&H.

Edited by rigbymauser (31/05/11 04:42 PM)

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LRF
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Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #183041 - 03/06/11 08:20 AM

Omnivorous_Bob
In your picture of loading components are some fine looking brass cases, do you or anyone else know of a source for these in 8-bore?

Thanks in advance

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: LRF]
      #183052 - 03/06/11 11:35 AM

LRF, Dave Casey at Rocky Mountain Cartridge is the man. It isn't quick, but if you send him a chamber cast he can CNC brass specifically for you gun. Not cheap with metal prices these days, but I've never had to resize one of his cases so they're very cheap in the long run.
Cheers,
Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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LRF
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Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #183080 - 04/06/11 10:45 AM

Thanks!

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark
Re: 8-bore bullets [Re: LRF]
      #183087 - 04/06/11 10:06 PM

Quote:

Omnivorous_Bob
In your picture of loading components are some fine looking brass cases, do you or anyone else know of a source for these in 8-bore?

Thanks in advance



I too use RMC brass. The quality is like what OBob says. I have never yet resized a case, and they fits 100% perfect into the chamber.

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