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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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Longknife
.333 member


Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 259
Loc: Illinois
Another ? for Daryl
      #103247 - 23/04/08 01:28 AM

Hello Daryl, I found this site a while back and discovered my friend Daryl also frequents it!! I am finding the threads about the round ball loads very interesting as I used to do this in some old SXS's with black powder, of course!!! I was wondering about the possibility of rifling a set of barrels for round balls, I believe this was done by the British in the 19th century. I have an old Belgium SXS with the barrels cut back to 22 inches and a .719 bore. I am assumimg the twist rate would be the same as for a m-loader in the 1/95 range but what about groove depth, and ball size? Would I be better off with a patched ball or an oversize lubed ball? How much oversize? In a shot cup? I"ve had this project in mind for some years now, maybe its time to GET ER DONE!!!Thanks, Ed (Longknife)

--------------------
Longknife

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26591
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Another ? for Daryl [Re: Longknife]
      #103255 - 23/04/08 03:33 AM

Hi Ed - great minds think alike. Harry (ALR) and I have been discussing just this sort of project.
: While a 95" twist would work, it's slower than necessary due to the limitations of powder capacity in a 12 bore 2 3/4" shell & subsequent recoil of heavier loads. I suspect a 3" would hold an easy 8 or 9 drams - someone else can shoot it - not me. By this, I mean a 70" to 80" would work just fine. The speed attained with be around 1,550fps to 1,600fps with 7 drams(191gr.2F) GOEX, 1,400fps to 1,450fps with 5 1/2 drams (150gr.2F) the moderate African load as listed by Greener. You can get those same speeds by using several varieties of smokeless, with greatly reduced recoil.
: I have some 4227 loads to test before publishing them here. These were suggested by Huble - the author here, of "12 Bore From Hell". right now he's working on an 8 Bore From Hell chambered on a P14 or P17 Enfield.
: Rifling depth of .010" is more than necessary and could easily be only .005" to .006" with 70" to 80" of twist. This is due to the low velocity and relatively slow twist. I would not go any faster than 70" & might finalize with 80" due to the shallow rifling and plastic wad taking the lands. Even shallower rifling would work if the twist was slower yet, of course. How to get those slower twists of 100" to 120" is another matter, but I'm sure .002" to .003" would suffice for rifling depth.
: For 70" to 80", a ML barrel could easily be used as a guide with a lead lapp cast on the rod for a guidance down the tube. A 36" to 42" barrel would be perfect as the rifling head on the other end of the guide rod could be removed from the the tubes, without removing it from the guide barrel making cleaning and oiling the cutter head easier. Extra long lengths of drill rod can be purchased from outfits who supply tool and die equipment.
: A .719" bore is small for a 12. The one I played with some years ago, was .725", also small. Nominal 12 bore is .729" with many guns today being .735" to .740".There is nothing like tight consistancy, eh? A groove diameter ball would weigh just over 500gr. I have a mould that casts .722" in WW - probably .719" in pure lead. Due to the cost of pure lead, I'd use WW alloys.
: As you suggested, there are several ways of going about loading balls. One of the worse things to have to do, is to remove lead from a barrel - shotgun or rifle. We still need to spin the ball in the rifling, though. This can be accomplished with a patch as you're used to, a cupped wad to hold the ball int he middle as the wad takes the rifling which is the system I used in my previous double smoothbore, or a groove diameter ball. The fitted, or groove diameter ball will probably lead the rifling in only a few shots due to having no grease grooves. Rolling it in a lube might help reduce that, along with lubed wads behind, but I'd rather do one of the first two. Using a trap range pick-up spend wad with a cupped base (gas-check base) is the easiest. I just snip off the wad's fingers and column with side cutters and save the gas check portion. When seated in the case with the cup facing upwards, the cup holds an undersized ball perfectly. The force of accelleration up the bore will hold the ball inside the cup, centred in the bore, meanwhile the cup takes the rifling and spins the ball delivering the requisite accuracy. With BP loads, the plastic must be isolated from the BP charge or the flame will melt plastic onto the bore. With smokeless, this is less important. A couple circle-fly card wads on the powder will do the trick. Other wads or more of them are used to get proper wad column height for crimping. You can get a roll-crimper from Lyman, but I preferred a folded star crimp. It's really exciting to watch a pheasant get hit with a ball by mistake. ie: ball loads should be marked.
: With a full case of BP + card wads, the ball did not allow a full star crimp, but the case folded forward over the front end of the ball in a coned sort of point. These never opened in the slightest and worked just fine.
: I suggest you try a .690" Lee mould (cheap) or a .690 Lyman mould (better) and go with the wads for taking the rifling or a patch, which my buddies use in their duck guns.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Longknife
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Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 259
Loc: Illinois
Re: Another ? for Daryl [Re: Longknife]
      #103618 - 27/04/08 12:08 AM

Thanks for all the info Daryl. I have a .690 mould and a .715 mould and have been saving 12 ga. hulls for this project. I will go to the local trap range for some "cups". Now about that rifling, I have considered building a bench and cutting it myself, but I am not too far away from Bill Moody, I may see if he will cut it for me. So your suggestions would be 1 in 80 twist .006 depth. (max) and 191 grns FF to get a vel. of around 1600 fps. I am not doubting your word but when I calculated round ball twist useing the Greenhill formula a few years ago I came up with something like 103 for a .690 ball. why do you recommend a faster twist????THANKS, Ed

--------------------
Longknife

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26591
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Another ? for Daryl [Re: Longknife]
      #103626 - 27/04/08 02:34 AM

The Greenhill formula gives the slowest twist for stability, not the optimum. Too, it doesn't work well for round ball guns. A bunch of the guys use different 'constants' insted of 150 number. Try plugging in 120 and see what happens - or maybe it was 170? Anyway, it doesn't matter. We know 70" to 80" works better than 100" or slower. The slower twists will give descent hunting accuracy, but require very large powder charges to get enough velocity to make the twists work and are not realy flexible with lower charges.
: Trust me on this, 80" is a great comprimize twist and will work just fine. I would stay away from faster twists. I know a 14 bore ball(.680" to .690") will shoot well with 66" of twist, but it required a very tight combination to maintain patch integrity and prevent excessive fouling and mainting accuracy. This was in a muzzleloading rifle and it-too demanded fairly heavy charges to shoot accurately. Best accuracy was derived from 4 1/2 drams to 7 drams - even in it's fairly fast twist for the bore size.
: Since you're using a breech loader, fouling is more easily removed when and if it happens. Next time I get a bore barrel, from 16 bore to 12 bore, it will be in 75" to 80" twist.
: Forsyth's recommendations for a 1/4 turn in the length of the barrels (26" tubes) as being the best for hunting, takes into consideration they used very shallow rifling a a weak combination of ball and patch. More twist would cause stripping and excessive fouling, but the roughly 102" to 104" twist would still give minute of elephant, tiger and bear accuracy at the very close ranges they shot in the jungle with heavy charges. We know today, a slightly faster twist gives even better accuracy, and that about .006" is plenty deep enough to work well. My 14 bore rifle made normal 100 meter 5 shot groups of 1-1/2" or smaller with many of those in the 1.2" to 1.4" range which shows 66" isn't too fast, just too fast and requiring too deep rifling for loading a 12 gauge case with plastic wads. Fouling is a bug-bear when plastic is used. It must be well protected from the black powder flame if it is used. For this reason, my friends use cloth patches on the balls loaded in their duck guns (moose loads). So- either protected plastic or cloth patching as used by muzzleloaders will work. If using cloth, make it a very tight fit inside the shotshell. You want the patch stripping off the ball as it leaves the shell.
: You can soak a fibre wads in a mix of 40% Vaseline, 60% beeswax for a good lube (then sweeze them out slightly), or just use a comercial lube like "SPG" or Lyman's "Black Powder Gold". Even though Vaseline is a petrolium derivitive, it works wonderfully with BP fouling. Must be the heat and wax that changes the normal petrolium and BPfouling's non-mixing properties. I've come to prefer that lube for BP ctg. shooting.
: I hope this further explains BP loading in shotshells with ball.
: Remember, with smokeless powder charges, plastic can be on the powder as in all modern shotshells. With black powder charges, you need a barrier between the plastic and the powder.
: Something you might also try, if you get the inclination, Longknife, is the Lyman Sabot slug. In WW alloy, this slug weighs 508gr. or thereabouts and fits perfectly in a Red WW Field wad. Corresponding powder charges can be found in Lyman's shotshell loading books. Cast in pure lead, they are supposed to weigh 525gr. When seated inside the top of a Red Wad, fingers and base cut off, this slug can be loaded over card wads in a black powder loading. I'd use it in pure lead for deer or medium game, but WW alloy for large game like ELk, moose or big bear. Friend Carl in Alberta says this slug out-penetrates Brenneke's by a good margin.
: Lyman also has a 345 gr. sabot slug that fits in a 20 bore wad for use in 20 bore guns. Their shotshell handloading books also supply data for this one.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Longknife
.333 member


Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 259
Loc: Illinois
Re: Another ? for Daryl [Re: DarylS]
      #103938 - 01/05/08 12:23 AM

Thanks Daryl, I checked with Bill Moody and he said he could not fit a set of doubles in his rifling bench. I will call a few others, Getz, Rayl, and check with them too. I have been wanting to get that book by Steve Bookout and build a rifling bench but I have also been reading the threads on the ALR about rifling barrels. I guess I could get a barrel, like you said and use it as a guide. The gun I am going to use is an old belgium double. I got it at a gun show years ago. Really in excellent mechanical shape. but a little beat up on the outside. I was never shot much because the barrels were mis-aligned, one was almost 1/8 inch higher than the other at the muzzle. I cut them back to 22 inches and they were not so bad there. I luckily cut right at the weld (yep they were welded) that holds them together. I plan on unsoldering the ribs, regulate them and resoldering. I have heard about the horrors of trying to regulate a pair of barrels. Why couldn't I use one of those "bore sighters with the laser light?? Just clamp the barrels to a flat piece of steel,insert laser sighter, regulate with wedges, shims etc. and reweld and solder???? Ever tried this??HMMMMM, Thanks for your input, Ed

P.S. Do you think these 22 inch barrels are long enough to burn 191 grs. of powder????

Edited by Longknife (01/05/08 12:56 AM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26591
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Another ? for Daryl [Re: Longknife]
      #103951 - 01/05/08 02:54 AM

Hi Ed - Oh yeah - 22" burn it - not as efficiently as 24" or 26", but you'll not be spitting 40 gr. of unburnt powder out the tubes. Note that it will kick somewhat - maybe more than that! HA!
: Belgium ribs are usually brazed together, not welded nor soldered. Scratch a rib where it contacts the barrel, on the undersize. A brass coloured line means they're brazed on.
: Setting up the barrels so they shoot together is more involved than aligning up the bore axis's. They must converge the proper amount to regulate with a specific load.
: I was lucky with my 12 bore double as it regulated with both the 5 1/2 and 7 dram BP loads, and also shot close enough with smokeless to be useful - same velocity as 7 dram black powder load, but 1/3 the recoil.
: If you're going to separate the tubes, Moody should be able to rifle them then, if the ribs aren't brazed on, that is.
: Ned Robert's book has several different pictures of rifling benches, some with spindles, some with a barrel used for a guide. The extra barrel is the easiest, just takes a long table. You can use any muzzleloading barrel as a guide for the slow twist. As I said, I'd go with something slower than 66" and faster than 100". A GM .50 or .54 cal. barrel would be about perfect at 80".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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