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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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lindisfarne
.224 member


Reged: 26/07/05
Posts: 7
Loc: Philadelphia
lancaster 11 bore rifle
      #39156 - 15/10/05 04:48 AM

I have a pair of 11 bore Lancaster percussion rifles, and they do not shoot for sour apples.

The bores mike at .760 and we are shooting patched balls from .755 to .757, with 2 1/2 drams of bp up to 3 1/2. the balls cross way before 50 yards. They came with a mold from the period which measures .760.

Any suggestions as to load and proper ball size?

Can they have been designed for bullets?

Bob Olson

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577Enfield
.275 member


Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 90
Loc: BC-Canada
Re: lancaster 11 bore rifle [Re: lindisfarne]
      #39158 - 15/10/05 05:27 AM

a pair of them!!! nice, I love Lancasters. Is the load marked on the barrels anywhere? I have always heard that they shoot rather well as long as they have the right load, but that's the trick is finding it.

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: lancaster 11 bore rifle [Re: lindisfarne]
      #39341 - 20/10/05 01:03 PM

A pair of muzzle loading double eleven bore rifles eh?
My oh my...

It is possible that they were set up for conical bullets.
I was talking to Lewis Drake one day recently about loading for the sixteen bore double rifle. He had been describing to me a special mould that one of his rifles had been issued with that cast the bullets to fit firmly into the rifled bore.

I noticed a large bore muzzle loader on his site the other day that he'd had a similar arrangememt made for which cast bullets slightly oversize, then swaged them right to size -- with grooves to perfectly index the rifling -- it's said to load quickly and shoot very well.

I'm interested to hear what the bore/groove measurements are on your gun, if they are the same from tube to tube and rifle to rifle. I'm also interested to hear what the rifling arrangement is in those tubes.
Is this a 'composed pair' or an actual *made as a pair* pair of percussion double rifles.

Do you have the case for them?
Is there a vacancy in that case that would suggest that it came with a conical bullet mould and associated loading tools?

Show us some photos of this pair, we'll get to the bottom of this interesting mystery.
If what you have there is indeed a proper pair of guns, getting them to both throw all the shots into the same group will be a great accomplishment.


I will stay tuned here to see what you have to say...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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lindisfarne
.224 member


Reged: 26/07/05
Posts: 7
Loc: Philadelphia
Re: lancaster 11 bore rifle [Re: tinker]
      #39387 - 21/10/05 01:31 AM

Thanks for your interest.

The rifles are a proper pair. Alfred Gallifent has one of them and I will pass on your comments to him, as well as asking him to measure bore/groove.

Your comments are particularly interesting in that the mold (ball) that came with them casts a ball that is .760 which is the bore measurement and so that they are too large to be loaded; further, although the mold is of the period and numbered to the guns it is numbered clumlsely and marked 11/12 bore - so it is deeply suspect.

Bob Olson

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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26499
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: lancaster 11 bore rifle [Re: lindisfarne]
      #39395 - 21/10/05 06:16 AM

The proper load should be on the table, or underneath on the barrels themselves.
: With GOEX BP, you may have to use 20 to 30gr. MORE powder to get the regulation velocity. Shooting apart seems to indiacate more powder is desired. 11 bore is more akin to 10 than to 12 for loads. The 2 loads I've found for 12 bores ran 150gr. for the light charge and 192gr. for the heavy. These may be paradox loads. My old Fluid Steel 12 bore smoothbore, shortened to 26" shot perfectly(as near as could tell) with the heavy load, but crossed at 100 yds with the light, easier to shoot load.
: With Swiss BP, you should be able to use the designed loads. Ross Seyfreid found Swiss to give approximately the same POI as regulation loads in double ans regulated tothe sights on singles.
: The loads listed came from on of Jack Lott's articles in Gun Digest having data for double rifles (or perhaps from "The Gun and It's Developement" WW Greener - 11th edition)
: 150gr. is 5.5 drams and 192 is 7 drams.
: How Lancaster's oval bores run loads, I don't know, but that class of rifle should give the loads. I'd expect a letter to H&H might result in the answers you require.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: lancaster 11 bore rifle [Re: lindisfarne]
      #39408 - 21/10/05 10:19 AM

Hi Bob-

When you said that the balls at .760 are too big and that's cause they are bore diameter, did you mean to say that they are groove diameter?

What kind of rifling do these barrels have?
Is it the oval 'invisible' type or a bore and groove type of rifling with distinct lands?

Take a look over at the Lewis Drake website, there's a rather large bore muzzle loading double rifle for sale. The feature on it shows the bullets I speak of.
They're a conical type, 'driving band' type grease groove arrangement as I recall, and as-produced look as if they've been slugged through a barrel, they have pre-engraved rifling grooves set up to index with the barrel's rifling lands.

The gun I speak of is a Westley Richards 8 bore rifle.



The bullets.




The muzzles.




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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lindisfarne
.224 member


Reged: 26/07/05
Posts: 7
Loc: Philadelphia
Re: lancaster 11 bore rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #39411 - 21/10/05 10:54 AM

Thank you.

The underside of the barrels have proof marks plus either 11 or 17, I can't say. The 11 might be the bore, I can't tell what the 17 would be except for this:

We shot one of the rifles with 2 1/2 drams and the balls crossed at probably 20 yards - we were shooting at 50 yard targets and the bullets were problably 5" apart but crossed, however they were at the same hight and about 2 inches above the point of aim. When we shot with 3 drams the distance between the balls was greater.

The bores are deeply rifled, (10 lands) not oval.

I hadn't thought to contact H&H but I will.

Any other thoughts would be appreciated

Bob Olson

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lindisfarne
.224 member


Reged: 26/07/05
Posts: 7
Loc: Philadelphia
Re: lancaster 11 bore rifle [Re: tinker]
      #39412 - 21/10/05 10:58 AM

I guess I do.

They are groove diameter. there are 10 lands andf grooves. we will measure them shortly and let you know.

We also will measure the twist.

Thanks

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: lancaster 11 bore rifle [Re: lindisfarne]
      #39414 - 21/10/05 11:23 AM

Hi again Bob-

I don't shoot an eleven bore rifle.
I do however have a couple of black powder sixteen bore cartridge double rifles that I load with roundball, the powder charge tends to be around 2-3/4 drams of FFg for the lighter loaded one, the heavier of the two double rifles will take over three drams and the same roundball (.666"dia)
Both of my rifles are damascus tubed guns by the way.

At first the symptom you speak of there, 2-1/2 drams of powder crossing the shots, 3 drams crossing even more might have one thinking that less powder would be the answer.
My instinct here is to ask what your chronograph said about it all.
What was the velocity of either of those loads?
If you're in a -waaay too low velocity- range, you might need to step things up a bit to get the gun to push enough (interior ballsitics-wise) to get it to uncross.
Might need more bullet too.


What does your rifle weigh?
That and the bore/groove measurements, as well as rifling rate might give us some clues here.



--Tinker


--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: lancaster 11 bore rifle [Re: lindisfarne]
      #44792 - 24/12/05 03:14 PM

The exact same thing is happening to my Kodiak 12 bore right now. They cross at about 25 yards and rise as the charges go up. The left barrel groups well but the right is all over the place. I'm thinking about lapping the barrels, both polishing and fire lapping. I also will glass bed the stock and main barrel lugg.

Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26499
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: lancaster 11 bore rifle [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #44824 - 25/12/05 06:13 AM

Colorado- you can effectively polish the bores by scrubbing with 4-ought steel wool on a jag. It won't hurt the bores.
: As well, you could use FLITZ polish on a cloth patch on a jag and run it up and down the bores. This will also polish, but may not remove the 'feather'(if there) on the edges of the lands, which can cut patches and induce inacurracy. The steel wool will remove this sharp 'feather'. Feather is caused when cut rifing, and won't be there if the bores are button rifled. Cutting or burning through the patches will cause inaccuracy. The muzzles must be polished and crowned such that seating a tight combination doens't cut the patches.
: A hunting rifle should be able to fire at least 5 shots from each bore without needing wiping.
: A major cause of inaccuracy is poor or innapropriate lube. Some rifles demand different lubes be used. It is an idiosyncracy of rifles - they normally require different loads to shoot their best, rifle to rifle. I suppose this may also mean, barrel to barrel, so some comprimises might have to be made. Working up loads is not an instant success job, normally, sometimes taming many trips tyring various different methods and patches, ball sizes, etc, before 'arriving' at the best load. Having 2 barrels joined together makes this 'job' take at least twice the time of a single barrel. Success depends on what your 'parameters' of an acceptable load are.
: I know of guys who accept 5" at 25yds. as being OK, while others will only accept 3/4" at 50yds as being permissable. Some give up and clean after each shot as their load of lube,patch or ball won't allow repeated shooting without wiping. Guys who load like this are never in the winners circle at our local B.C. matches.
: I see other guys with the .72 Kodiacs shooting upwards of 130gr.@f- I suggest trying the more 'healthy' loads and see if the barrels shoot parallel with a larger powder charge. I've always thought heavier loads would spread the balls. It could be the small charges of 3 drams just isn't enough powder. From a hunting standpoint for elk or bear, it certainly isn't.
: Personally, I'd be trying 4 to 5 drams and see how it shoots. Note that the patch & lubericant must be up to the job.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: lancaster 11 bore rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #44834 - 25/12/05 11:38 AM

I just came back from shooting. I tried MY version of moose snot, and it loaded well, kept the patches from burning but soaked the powder and wet fouled the left barrel to the point of mushy goo coming out the nipple. I had to pull the nipple and clean out enough to get some powder in to eject the load. Cleaned it with patches since I was in the field, squibbed about 10 tens and tried again. Right barrel started shooting better for no apparent reason and the left barrel went to hell. They must be getting broken in and or fouled out. I'm pretty fustrated right now. I know a lot of this is me. I just need to spend a lot of time with the gun. The good thing is that the gun likes 130 FFg, doesn't make a difference if its 130 or 80 shoots the same.

I do believe the patches are getting cut, and I just received the lapping compound so I'll lap the barrels tonight or tomorrow and try it again.

Colorado



--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: lancaster 11 bore rifle [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #44979 - 27/12/05 03:31 PM

I lapped the barrels, shot it get a littel tighter on the group but I'm still getting a flyer for three shots per barrel. Which might be me.

Still working on it.

Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: lancaster 11 bore rifle [Re: lindisfarne]
      #45509 - 02/01/06 03:51 AM

If you have not already, try using some wadding, either a trimmed 12/10grade plastic shotgun, or hard cardboard. IT did the trick for me. See double forum or felt wad post for results! I'm pretty pleased! It’s been a battle royal with this gun!

I believe the reason this helped is that I was getting a delta in pressures per barrel. This seemed to have helped with this. As well, I use less lube, and the wad keeps the powder from contacting the wet patch, rendering less powder inert.

Just a theory.

Colorado


--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: lancaster 11 bore rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #47023 - 19/01/06 04:22 PM

I bumped the load up to 160grns and the spread just a tad, maybe 1" or less. Gun is holding up fine, no gas leaks at the breech or nipple. Stock is fine as well.

Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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