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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum

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ducmarc
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mauser maximum
      #299595 - 25/04/17 12:08 PM

Since guns are one of my investment tools I've slowly been acquiring mausers, mannlicher,merkels and enfields.ive noticed as per Gunshop and gun broker I can buy mauser 98 sporters for 200 to 500 in basic calibers 30.06 or 270 while anything that says Gibbs Richards or Jeffery u can add a 1500$ to it.so I've decided to rebarrel all them to British exotics .the barrels and there fitment cost the same.so the question is what are the biggest cannon shells I can put in a standard Length action?already have a 318 Westley Richards in the works a p17 going in 416 Rigby and an other in 375 hh and plan on another 505.as far mausers will 404 fit?
.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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casper50
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Re: mauser maximum [Re: ducmarc]
      #299596 - 25/04/17 12:22 PM

404 will fit but takes magazine and feed ramp work.

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Claydog
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Re: mauser maximum [Re: ducmarc]
      #299597 - 25/04/17 12:24 PM

Yes 404 will fit but needs some work. There is a fair bit about it on these forums. Needs to be opened up a bit. Jeffery built many of their early rifles on standard actions.

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ColoradoMatt1
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Re: mauser maximum [Re: Claydog]
      #299601 - 25/04/17 02:20 PM

The 404 is a very classic big bore in a standard length rifle. The largest classic British round that can be safely shoehorned into a standard action is the 500 Jeffrey. Duane Wiebe sells three and four round drop box magazines for them. Neither requires a long trigger. He also sells 404 Jeffery magazines. Conversions to either round requires the talents of a very skilled Mausersmith! The special magazines and the work to convert the actions is not cheap. Conversions to 404, done the way most very early Jeffery rifles were made, can cost much less, but they are rather crude. Pac-Nor barrels has a barrel print taken from an original 1905 vintage 404 rifle. They make a fine barrel, as well. Here is Wiebe's website.:

www.customgunandrifle.com

www.customgunandrifle.com/products/bottommetal/mauser-bottommetal

Give Duane a call and discuss these conversions. This will help you decide if it's worth the expense and effort.

BTW, the 416 Rigby, in a 3.6" magazine, is considered safe, but you would be limited to using only Federal and Hornady factory loads. I own a barreled action, made in such a way, using a modified Wiebe 404 drop box magazine. Some of the old Kynoch loads are as long as 3.75". Rigby made several standard action 416's in the first 15 years or so after WWII. Some of them are said to have developed setback in the locking lug recesses, as too much metal was removed from the feed ramp and lug recess support. They, no doubt, were opened up for the use of the longer rounds, as long ogive bullets were all that were available back then. The advent of the 3.6" 416 Rem and the 3.34" 416 Ruger caused the American bullet makers to shorten 416 bullet ogives considerably.

Good luck!


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lancaster
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Re: mauser maximum [Re: ColoradoMatt1]
      #299602 - 25/04/17 02:31 PM

Quote:

The largest classic British round that can be safely shoehorned into a standard action is the 500 Jeffrey.

Good luck!




12,7x70 Schueler, sorry

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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ColoradoMatt1
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Re: mauser maximum [Re: lancaster]
      #299605 - 25/04/17 04:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The largest classic British round that can be safely shoehorned into a standard action is the 500 Jeffrey.

Good luck!




12,7x70 Schueler, sorry




The Schueler and Jeffery have been determined to be slightly different. It's debatable which round came first, bu I understand that Jefffery rounds can be safely fired in the Shueler, but not the other way around, as the Shueler rounds shoulder will not quite allow the bolt to be closed in a Jeffrey chamber. Either way, we are discussing large CLASSIC BRITISH rounds, sorry.

BTW, I looked over a Shueler made rifle several years ago at the Bass Pro Shop, in Denver Colorado. It was made in about 1930, if I recall correctly. It was marked "500 Schueler", but I understand other examples are marked in metric. While I thought it a hideous looking rifle, I was told the BPS gunsmith took it to the range and shot 1" groups with it at 50 yards using Kynoch Jeffrey ammo. Pretty is as pretty does?

Here is everything you would ever want to know about the two rounds straight from Kynoch/Kynamco:


"CASE FOR CIP ADOPTION OF KYNOCH DRAWING BK82/132,
August 21, 1928, AS DEFINITIVE DIMENSIONAL SPECIFICATION
OF .500 JEFFERY CARTRIDGE FOR INSERTION IN TDCC'S

HISTORICAL BACKGROUND

There has long been argument over the origins of the .500 Jeffery cartridge and in particular whether it was designed by Jeffery, or adopted by him from the 12.7 x 70 Schüler, or whether Schüler adopted Jeffery's design. Whether or not he was the designer of the basic case, documentary evidence seems to point towards Jeffery being the first to market his rifle in this calibre, since the surviving records of the company (now held by Messrs Holland & Holland in London) show the first .500 Jeffery rifle to have been sold in 1927. The first documented reference to the Schuler cartridge is recorded(1) as a letter of 18.11.28 offering it to a customer on New York.

It is a common place error in the literature to describe the two cartridges as identical, but this is clearly not so when the original Kynoch Drawing BK82/ 132, dated August 21, 1928, of the .500 Jeffery is compared with the RWS Drawing M466, dated 18/7/40, of the Schuler .500/ 12.7 x 70. The differences in the shoulder position and shoulder angle are significant, and are highlighted in Kynamco Drawing K98/06.

The difference in the cartridges was brought about by the different rifle and loading systems adopted by Jeffery and Schüler. Schüler always built his rifles on a 98 Standard Action with a vertical magazine and a spring clip which held the cartridge as it left the magazine before the bolt picked up the cartridge and pushed it into the chambers. It relied on the extractor springing over the bullet head and a recess was cut into the chamber face to accept this. This method does not require any assistance from a tapered case or neck to assist it's extraction from the magazine as it just pops up as the bolt moves back and ejects the fired cartridge and is held by the spring clip ready for loading again.

Jeffery on the other hand had all his .500 calibre rifles made on Magnum Mauser Actions and had a stack magazine which meant the cartridge was held under the lip of the magazine box and had to be pushed forward out of the magazine box into the chamber by the bullet face, hence the tapered case and shoulder. angle was reduced to assist its entry into the chamber.

The fundamental difference between the two weapon systems has been forgotten by modern gunmakers and the subtle difference between the cartridges were brought about by the different systems.

The question of the manufacturing provenance of surviving original cartridges is also confusing. No examples are known with a K or KYNOCH headstamp, the only headstamps known (from the pre-WWII era) being an enigmatic ".500" and "x Schuler 500 x GECADO". There is no doubt that the latter is a .500 Schüler, manufactured by G C Dornheirn of Suhl (Gecado), and loaded with 118gr Smokeless NC Flake powder. However, the ".500" examples are known Cordite loaded(2), undoubtedly in Britain by Kynoch; it has long been supposed that all these ".500" h/s examples were also made and loaded by Gecado, but the Cordite loading makes this virtually impossible, since this propellant was not used by German SAA manufacturers.

The most likely explanation is that Jeffery (or Kynoch on his behalf) imported straight (un-necked) formed Schuler cases, quite probably from Gecado. Cordite, due to its stranded form, was invariably loaded into un—necked cases, over-wadded with a glaze board disc of case body inside diameter to retain the strands at the base of the case and the case was then finally necked over the wad for bulleting. This dual use of the basic case probably explains the lack of any complete calibre designation (such as ".500 Schüler" or ".500 Jeffery") in the headstamp; both firms promoted their respective versions as a ".500" – Schüler did not use the metric designation in his promotion of the calibre, this appear to have been adopted by RWS in the early 1940s.

This explains the existence of the Kynoch drawing as a loading drawing for the case giving final external dimensions, and a detailed manufacturing drawing of the bullet, which would have been of Kynoch manufacture; German solid bullets of the era were very thin jacketed and would not have been acceptable to Jeffery or their customers. This also indicates independent design by Jeffery and Schuler and intentional differences in the Jeffery cartridge. Although it may have been expedient (and cheaper) for him to import part finished brass using Schüler's base dimensions from Gecado, the use of a Kynoch bullet and his own sloping shoulder profile was very probably done to intentionally prevent Schuler cartridges being used in Jeffery rifles.

The accompanying photograph shows a comparison of two original Gecado Schüler loads, with the two known headstamps, both NC flake powder loaded, and both with the 47° shoulder angle (as measured on specimens) of the RWS drawing. These are compared with a modern Kynoch (Kynamco) .500 Jeffery (with a nominal 25°, as measured 30° on specimens) and a Romey .500 which has a 68° cone angle as measured on specimens. This and the dimensional correspondence of measured original Schüler specimens to the RWS drawing shows this to have been a copy of the original G C Dornheim drawing, which has disappeared. RWS and Dornheim had a working collaboration from the late 1920s until Dornheim was wholly absorbed by RWS prior to WWII, which would explain the existence of the RWS drawing, showing the intent to continue the manufacture of the Schltiler cartridge by RWS, which was undoubtedly thwarted by the war, since no specimens with the RWS headstamp are known.

COMMERCIAL CONSIDERATIONS

When sportsmen ask their riflemakers for a large bolt action rifle, the 500 Jeffery is always the top of the list. The lore of the calibre has spanned 60 years and is again enjoying a resurgence of popularity. Due to this popularity Kynoch are reproducing the ammunition to the specification and original dimensions of their predecessors, and are now making a further 10,000 rounds of ammunition to satisfy the market. In doing so we have to submit the cartridge to be entered into the CIP tables. This was first done in the early part of this year, but referred back because there was confusion over the dimensions. The historical background and technical considerations with these notes answer these questions. The shooting public do not want a 12.7 x 70 Schüler or a hybrid wildcat - they want a .500 Jeffery, to the original dimensional and ballistic specifications.

From a commercial point of view the 500 Jeffery cartridge to the correct original Kynoch English dimensions will fit the few original Schüler rifles, the original Jeffery rifles and the varying non-standard size chambers found in a few modern rifles made in the last 7 to 8 years. It will also fit and chamber safely in the Wolf "Improved" rifles. So there will not be a problem with the ammunition not fitting rifles in the current marketplace, and there will be no need to recall or alter any rifles, although some owners may like their gunsmith to check this for them.

Chamber reamers and head space gauges to the original Kynoch/Jeffery specifications are available from Arthur Smith, Arms Restoration Services Tel/Fax 01206 272354. Drawings of cartridge and chamber will be sent to all the major reamer manufacturers. Cartridge gauges will be available from Kynamco Limited.
Non—CIP signator countries, e g USA and South Africa are making rifles to the original Jeffery dimensions and have to date taken over 5,000 rounds of ammunition and have ordered a further 10,000 rounds for delivery end 1998.

There has been an enormous amount of mis-information regarding this cartridge. The opportunity has now arisen to the benefit of both manufacturer and private users of the calibre to correct all this and have one definitive specification for this cartridge. With its submission to CIP it will allow owners of both original and new rifles to be confident the ammunition made for this calibre will fit and serve the user as well as the original Jeffery cartridge.

TECHNICAL CONSIDERATIONS

Kynamco Drawing K98/06 gives a detailed overlaid comparison of the shoulder profiles of the .500 Jeffery, from the Kynoch drawing, and the 12.7 x 70 Schuler shoulder is 0.8 mm larger in diameter than the Jeffery case at the mid-point of the Jeffery neck cone. This is known to cause chambering problems in original Jeffery rifles when attempting to feed Schuler dimensioned cases; although the Schüler cartridge may be fired, the bolt in many cases has to be forced to shut, and extraction may be hard.

The same drawing also illustrates the hybrid profile proposed by Romey in 1997. It can be seen that this is much closer to the Schüler than the Jeffery profile, and it is also known that cartridges using this profile give the same hard chambering problems as the Schüler case profile. The Romey proposal is in essence a compromise wildcat cartridge that does not fulfil the requirements for Jeffery chambered rifles, though it may be usable in Schüler rifles. It is however an unnecessary further complication to an already complex problem.

However, K98/06 also demonstrates that the Jeffery profile falls within the Schüler profile except very marginally for a short portion of the neck transition, but, given normal manufacturing tolerances, the Jeffery cartridge will not cause hard chambering problems in a Schuler chambered rifle, and also does not compromise the headspacing of the Schuler rifle, since the front of the Jeffery cone coincides sufficiently well with the front third of the Schuler profile to cause no ignition or safety/pressure problems, as the fireforming expansion that will occur is minimal.

From the technical/dimensional standpoint therefore, it can be seen that the "interchangeability" of these two cartridges is in fact one way; the .500 Jeffery may be readily chambered and safely fired in both Jeffery and Schuler rifle, but the Schuler will not chamber in the Jeffery, particularly in a minimum Jeffery chamber.

It would in many ways be preferable, to demonstrate conclusively the differences and to clarify the many misconceptions about these calibres, if both the Jeffery and the Schuler cartridges were to be adopted into TDCCs under their correct designations and with definitively accurate dimensions from the original respective manufacturer's drawings. However, if it is the CIP's preference only to adopt one of these cartridges due to their similarities, it would seem logical that it should be the Jeffery profile as depicted in Kynoch Drawing BK82/ 132, as it alone may be used safely in both chamberings.

REFERENCES

(1) Techel, H. "Die Btichsenmacherfamilie Schuler in Suhl" Patronensammler-Vereinigung e.V., Sonderdruck Mitteilungblatt 1990
(2) Fleming, W. "British Sporting Rifle Cartridges", Armory Publications, Oceanside CA, ISBN 0—939683-11-3, 1993"

Edited by ColoradoMatt1 (25/04/17 04:55 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: mauser maximum [Re: ColoradoMatt1]
      #299625 - 26/04/17 12:27 AM

Quote:

It's debatable which round came first




an excellent text but Schueler was first

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Huvius
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Re: mauser maximum [Re: lancaster]
      #299626 - 26/04/17 01:37 AM

I too am a firm believer that Jeffery did not design the 500 as their own literature doesn't make any mention of doing so.
Reading their period advertisements, you will notice that they do make a point of claiming the design of the 404 but their use of the 500 in the Mauser magazine rifle is at the behest of their customers.
I think that this indicates pressure from the field to chamber their rifles in an already existing cartridge.
It would be unthinkable for an English maker NOT to indulge in the accolades of creating the most powerful bolt action cartridge ever devised!

See here:
https://www.theexplora.com/the-classic-w-j-jeffery-co-safari-rifles/

Also, there has been much debate over whether the 500 was ever loaded with strand cordite. As far as I am aware, no example has ever been produced. There is still a standing reward on AR for anybody able to prove that the 500 was a cordite cartridge in period by pulling a bullet of an original cartridge. The fact that flake powder load was exclusively used is more support that the 500 was a German development.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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ColoradoMatt1
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Re: mauser maximum [Re: Huvius]
      #299640 - 26/04/17 04:20 AM

I am not a firm believer, either way, which came first. Nor do I care. I mainly wanted to point out that, while the two rounds are very similar, they are not the same round, not entirely interchangeable, and that one is BRITISH and the other GERMAN. I stand by my original statement regarding the 500 Jeff as being the largest Classic British round you can safely fit in a standard 98. I've read of the 505 Gibbs being shoehorned into a standard 98. That is a very, very bad idea.

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ducmarc
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Re: mauser maximum [Re: ColoradoMatt1]
      #299659 - 26/04/17 11:38 AM

Never figured the 500 Jeffery would fit.is the 425 Westley Richards easier or harder than the 404.where does it stand in all this

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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casper50
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Re: mauser maximum [Re: ducmarc]
      #299661 - 26/04/17 11:54 AM

.425 takes a really good smith to get it correct. Lots of feed problems when it's not correct.

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ColoradoMatt1
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Re: mauser maximum [Re: ducmarc]
      #299662 - 26/04/17 12:05 PM

The 425 WR is harder to make properly feed from a staggered Mauser magazine, due to the heavily rebated rim. It's doable, but much less practical than the 404. Brass, bullets, and ammo are scarce. Don't walk- Run from the 425 WR, if you are building a custom rifle as an investment. Having said that, properly built 425's have a good reputation on African game. The round, and rifles that chambered it, were never as ubiquitous as the 404 Jeff became.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: mauser maximum [Re: ducmarc]
      #299670 - 26/04/17 04:00 PM

Quote:

Since guns are one of my investment tools I've slowly been acquiring mausers, mannlicher,merkels and enfields.ive noticed as per Gunshop and gun broker I can buy mauser 98 sporters for 200 to 500 in basic calibers 30.06 or 270 while anything that says Gibbs Richards or Jeffery u can add a 1500$ to it.so I've decided to rebarrel all them to British exotics .the barrels and there fitment cost the same.so the question is what are the biggest cannon shells I can put in a standard Length action?already have a 318 Westley Richards in the works a p17 going in 416 Rigby and an other in 375 hh and plan on another 505.as far mausers will 404 fit?
.




I don't know about the USA, but my observations in Australia fron selling websites is that usually the custom rifles are being sold far cheaper than what I would think they would cost to have made. Maybe some Aussies disagree with this or not? Happy to hear their comments.

This is different to classic firearms made by classic makers in original or refurbished form.

A personalised customised firearm made for someone elese, ho hum. OK if made nicely and to a useful form, but not worth untold thousands to me or anyone really.

A classic Rigby, H&H, WR, Jeffery, Winchester etc increases in value due to the collector market, whether users or safe queen horders.

JMO.

I think I will make some money when I die and my firearms are sold.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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grandveneur
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Re: mauser maximum *DELETED* [Re: lancaster]
      #299701 - 27/04/17 02:47 AM

Post deleted by grandveneur

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Claydog
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Re: mauser maximum [Re: grandveneur]
      #299713 - 27/04/17 08:15 AM

Like Matt said I don't think any Schueler round could be considered a classic British. I think I understand what Dumarc is saying with the values. You do see some rifles such as Churchill Mausers that have a big asking price simply because they are chambered in .404 whereas a similar rifle in a standard caliber is much less. At least this seems to be the case in OZ. I don't believe he is talking about a full blown custom gun. Unfortunately it is not as simple as a straight up re-barrel at least with the larger rounds and I really think by the time all is said and done you would be lucky to cover your costs.

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congomike
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Re: mauser maximum [Re: Claydog]
      #300371 - 12/05/17 12:40 PM

.416 Rigby. Rigby built rifles in that caliber on M98 Mauser actions. There was a pretty famous hunter, who some of you may have heard of, named Harry Selby who used one for around 40 years, shooting it enough to have to have it rebarreled once because it was "shot out". I cannot imagine someone like him using, or some firm like Rigby, producing such a gun if it was not safe. Remember, though, he used mostly factory ammo in it, loaded to the standard load of 400 grains at 2350 fps. Some people like to "hotrod" it and try for that 2600fps or so. At that constant level, the action may not be safe after hundreds, thousands, whatever, rounds, but that is on the handloader. Sort of like having a nice Royal Grade .577 H&H double and seeing how much velocity you will get just because you have the case capacity. My guess, it would be ruined far quicker than pushing a M98 to high velocity/big bore.
Personally, I would not hesitate to shoot a M98 in .416 Rigby (I think Harry's rifle is still being used), or .404 Jeffrey or .375 H&H or any other cartridge of that length. IMHO.


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szihn
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Re: mauser maximum [Re: congomike]
      #300374 - 12/05/17 12:47 PM

Congomike is 100% correct. here's a picture of Selby's rifle.


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