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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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Tentman
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Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ??
      #245849 - 16/04/14 09:14 AM

Hello Guys

I have just acquired a Model B Kurz in 8x51, I will be posting photos and details of the rifle soon.

The rifle came with some original RWS ammunition, some fired brass (both original RWS Berdan primmed and cases made from Norma Brass) and dies. I will be able to make more cases

The 8x51 uses a projectile of .316 (8.0264 mm), and the ammo I have so measures. I have made some searches of the internet and there are some potential US custom bullet makers, and possibly Taipan of Australia that may be able to supply .316 projectiles.

However I am wondering if any forum members have knowledge of a European manufacturer who may offer 8.0264 projectiles ??

Thanks

Foster

--------------------
Southland, New Zealand

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paradox_
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: Tentman]
      #245851 - 16/04/14 09:59 AM

Foster

just remind me, what weight were they??

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Tentman
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: paradox_]
      #245857 - 16/04/14 11:12 AM

The originals were 196 grains, the Taipans are 125 (for pistol) but I'd be happy with just about any jacketed bullet . . . .

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paradox_
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: Tentman]
      #245858 - 16/04/14 11:44 AM

Foster , the original Mauser catalogue lists bullet weight at 158 gr, and .315 did

The 196 gr bullet is for the 8x57????. It would be a bullet too long for the 8x51. Have you pulled and weighed an original bullett yet?/

Best
Eric

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: Tentman]
      #245859 - 16/04/14 11:45 AM

Tentman - a 1 or 2 die set (.318" and .315" (allowing for .001" spring back) from Lee Precision can reduce any .318", .321" or .323" bullets to .316" for you.

The do not list this service on line - but respond well to a phone call. An e-mail note might get a response as well.

They were charging $30.00 US per die that fit normal loading press 7/8 X 14 threads. A compound lever press might be necessary.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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paradox_
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: DarylS]
      #245864 - 16/04/14 12:21 PM



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paradox_
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: paradox_]
      #245865 - 16/04/14 12:25 PM

I reckon you buy a generic box of 150gr 323dia from any gunshot, and swage as per Daryls instructions.
I would mic the bore first , just to confirm bore and grove did, although there should be stamped on the underside of the barrel.


Best
Eric

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Huvius
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: paradox_]
      #245866 - 16/04/14 12:25 PM

I would slug the barrel and see how it measures out.
I would expect that most 8mm Kurz Mausers shoot the .318" bullets just fine.

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Tentman
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: Huvius]
      #245867 - 16/04/14 12:35 PM

I do have a rock-chucker press so maybe sizing my own is an option. I agree on getting the bore sized. It is stamped as 8.02

I wouldn't try and shoot unsized .323 bullets through it, but given that my rifle is a 1922 model, do you think the reamer may have been designed after the same fashion as the later 8x57 reamers which would shoot .323 projectiles in a .318 bore without excess pressure ?? i.e. then .318 projectiles would in any case be OK ??

I don't really want to pull a projectile if I can help it, this ammo is worth $10 a pop at least with collectors !! I do have the little catalogue you have sent the page from Eric, so maybe using its data I can reverse engineer from empty brass to see what the bullet weight is.

Thanks

--------------------
Southland, New Zealand

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paradox_
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: Tentman]
      #245868 - 16/04/14 12:49 PM

I think you will be ok with .318, pity I have several boxes of original RWS…you could try, but 196gr only Im afraid.

A great bullet in the 8x57 and 8x60

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Huvius
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: Tentman]
      #245869 - 16/04/14 12:49 PM

I have made up a couple dummy rounds from 308Win. brass and .318" bullets for my Kurz and they cycle and chamber with no resistance at all.
I figure that pushing a bullet through a die to reduce it by .002" is splitting hairs so to speak since the same will be accomplished in the first inch of barrel upon firing and if there are thousands of military Mausers with .318" barrels shooting bullets a full .005" bigger than groove, there is little worry about the .002" difference in the comparatively anemic 8mm Kurz.

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eagle27
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: paradox_]
      #245880 - 16/04/14 05:16 PM

Quote:

Foster , the original Mauser catalogue lists bullet weight at 158 gr, and .315 did

The 196 gr bullet is for the 8x57????. It would be a bullet too long for the 8x51. Have you pulled and weighed an original bullett yet?/

Best
Eric



Mauser Bolt Rifles by Ludwig Olson has original specifications for the 8x51 cartridge taken from the Mauser Co catalog circa 1910 showing a land diameter of .307" and a groove diameter of .319" so it was made for the .318" 8mm bullets.

The same book also lists DWM loads for the 8x51 with bullets weights of 157gr @ 2155fps (round soft point) and two styles of 196gr bullets @ 2099fps (round soft point) and 2066fps (round strong jacket).

When I loaded for this cartridge using resized 308Win cases I used Norma .318" bullets but cannot remember the weight, possibly lighter than 196grs, not sure what Norma was producing in the 70's.

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eagle27
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: Tentman]
      #245881 - 16/04/14 05:26 PM

Quote:

Hello Guys

I have just acquired a Model B Kurz in 8x51, I will be posting photos and details of the rifle soon.

The rifle came with some original RWS ammunition, some fired brass (both original RWS Berdan primmed and cases made from Norma Brass) and dies. I will be able to make more cases

The 8x51 uses a projectile of .316 (8.0264 mm), and the ammo I have so measures. I have made some searches of the internet and there are some potential US custom bullet makers, and possibly Taipan of Australia that may be able to supply .316 projectiles.

However I am wondering if any forum members have knowledge of a European manufacturer who may offer 8.0264 projectiles ??

Thanks

Foster



Tentman

A great piece to acquire but am confused with your definition of a Model B Kurz.
According to my Mauser Rifles book, the 8x51 cartridge was chambered in the Model K (Kurz) Mauser along with other short cartridges such as the 250-3000 and 6.5x54. The Model B took the 7x57, 6.5x55 and on up to the 30.06 length cartridges.

The Model K is a rarer model Oberndorf Mauser with such a model in 250-3000 the rarest of all (one of which my brother had).

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paradox_
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: eagle27]
      #245887 - 16/04/14 06:27 PM

Eagle

I think you are confusing your " Types" with your "Models"…..or my Model "A" K rifle is also in a lot of trouble!!

Suggestion you obtain a copy of the Speed book , where all will be revealed!

Best
Eric

--------------------
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eagle27
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: paradox_]
      #245889 - 16/04/14 07:43 PM

Quote:

Eagle

I think you are confusing your " Types" with your "Models"…..or my Model "A" K rifle is also in a lot of trouble!!

Suggestion you obtain a copy of the Speed book , where all will be revealed!

Best
Eric



Eric,

Yes did confuse it a bit in perpetuating the 'model' designation. I should have referred to Type (A, B, K, M and S) and then each of these Types had variations called Patterns.

Speed does however say the Oberndorf Mauser rifles were given a "Model or Type letter designation".I only have an extract from Speed's book in reference to the Type A which I have one of but the book I have "Mauser Bolt Rifles" by Ludwig Olson is a very definitive volume on the Mauser bolt rifles both military and sporter and I don't see any reference to Mauser Sporters having Model A, K designations or such like. What am I missing?

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paradox_
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: eagle27]
      #245890 - 16/04/14 07:55 PM

Eagle

Olsen is NOT the definite work on COMMERCIAL MAUSERS. in context of that book they barely rate a mention.

Again, might I suggest you obtain a copy of Speed, but in the meantime be assured that Model A k actioned rifles do very much exist.

You are simply missing the right book!

Best
Eric

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Huvius
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: paradox_]
      #245899 - 16/04/14 10:50 PM

K being the action size (kurz - short)
Type designation A, B, S, M (I think they didnt make the G or African type on the Kurz action) being the style of rifle.

Mine is a TypeS Kurz.
Tentman's being a TypeB Kurz

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kuduae
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: Huvius]
      #245912 - 17/04/14 05:16 AM

Back to the roots, that is, the original German specifications for barrels, bullets and loads!
Jon Speed in "Mauser -Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles", pages 274-275, published the original Mauser factory specifications. According to these 1920s factory specs the 8x51K used the same barrel and bullet dimensions of the 8x57I, .318": barrel bore: 7.8 (tolerance + .05) mm = .307 - .309", groove 8.1 (+ .04, - .01) mm = .3188", twist one turn in 310 mm = 12.2".
Bullet diameter 8.09 (+ .04) mm = .3185 - .320", bullet weights 12.8 g = 197gr or 10.3g = 159 gr.
These 1920s Mauser specs are close to the current CIP ones: bore minimum 7.80 mm = .307", groove 8.07 mm = .3177" (Same as 8x57I, 8x60I, 8x64I), bullet maximum 8.07 mm = .3177".
The 1934 DWM handbook "Patrone und Schuss" advertized three loads, all using the same bullets as loaded in the 8x57I too:
Bullet number 117Y, 157 gr, in front of 2.5 g = 38.6 gr R5 powder for 657 m/s = 2156 fps, 20" test barrel (8x57I load using the same bullet: 3.0 g = 46 gr R5 for 837 m/s = 2746 fps, 26.8" test barrel)
Bullet # 299A, 12.7 g = 196 gr, 2.5 g = 38.6 gr R5 again, 640 m/s = 2100 fps ( 8x57I: 2.6 g Troisdorfer 1910 powder for 729 m/s = 2392 fps)
Bullet # 473A, 12.7 g = 196gr strong jacket soft nose, 2.50 g R5 again, 630 m/s = 2067 fps (8x57I: 2.75 g = 42.4 gr R5, 712 m/s = 2336 fps)
Note that the 8x51 K velocities were from a 51 cm = 20" barrel, while 8x57I ones are from a 68cm = 26.8" barrel.
So I would load the 8x51K with the same S&B 196gr .318" soft nose bullets I use in my 8x57I and reduce powder charges by 15 - 20% for a start.

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Tentman
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: kuduae]
      #245921 - 17/04/14 07:09 AM

Thanks for your assistance Gentlemen, as with any new rifle I have some measurement and scheming to do before considering shooting it . . .

We have had a constant flow of young visitors here (it is the Roar) and I haven't yet had time to properly examine and photograph the rifle but here are some quick shots for your entertainment:







The reference cartridge is a 9.3x62.

Cheers

--------------------
Southland, New Zealand

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Huvius
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: Tentman]
      #245923 - 17/04/14 07:52 AM

You know, my Kurz has a square bridge with an integral mount release button with no provision for a front scope mount too.
I wonder if this is common on square bridge Kurz actions?
Nice (and valuable) rifle BTW.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by Huvius (17/04/14 07:53 AM)

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paradox_
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: Huvius]
      #245927 - 17/04/14 09:41 AM

Tentman

Looks like a really nice Honest example. As sais before hard to find an 8x51 that has not being converted. Great find.
I will post the" A" 250/300 as soon as I get some pics done.

What is the marked twist, BTW

Best
Eric

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deepwoods
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: paradox_]
      #245932 - 17/04/14 10:53 AM

I have the same dilema Tentman, I bought a type M in 8x51 Kurz several years ago. It came with about 60 primed resized 8x57 cases ready to load but I have not acquired any .318" bullets yet either. I'm not saying I have searched extensively, I did a brief search and have been firing other rifles. But I would like to load the cases I have and try hunting with that model M.

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Tentman
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: deepwoods]
      #246995 - 05/05/14 08:37 PM

Well the bore on mine slugs at .318 or .319 as best I can measure, maybe even a tiny bit more . . . its the first one I've measured.

I'll get some .318's or .321's and a die.

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Peter9x57
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Re: Mauser 8x51 - Projectiles ?? [Re: Tentman]
      #246999 - 06/05/14 01:02 AM

Hi. I am new to this forum.I live in South Africa and have been using brilliant bullets from a bullet maker from my home town by the name of Gerard Schultz from GS Custom .His daughter Gina has now established a manufacturing facility in the USA. He will manufacture Super Premium Mono-metal Copper Bullets(the bullets that I use are GS Custom HV 130gr in a.308Win at 3000feet per second) to exactly match your rifle's bore. He also exports all over the world. Check out his website. It is extremely interesting. Bullet weight to use depends on the twist of your particular barrel.

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