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m4220
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8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S
      #121152 - 14/12/08 01:38 PM

Here goes. I have a beautiful mauser chambered in 8x60S with the .323 bore, so I am always on the lookout for ammo for it even though I have enough cases and reload it also. Today I ran across several old boxes of RWS 8x60 normal & I purchased them, they are sealed & I have yet to open them.
Now I suspect that the normal means that they are for the .318 bore but I have read others who have the opinion that this means normal loading and the S means for the spitzer bullet and hotter load. I don't beleive this to be true as there was also the MAGNUM or MAGNUM BOMBE loading, I know this to be a fact as I have 1 box so marked. My question to those who know more than I is if in fact the NORMAL means for the .318 bore. I will confirm this once I break the seal on the first box but thought I would ask the question to the experts here on the forum to see what opinions are offered up. All the ammo is RWS or DWM.

m4220


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pjaln
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: m4220]
      #121153 - 14/12/08 01:52 PM

m4220,the 8x60S is the magnum bombe in the hotter load and only in the .323S bore i have 2 oberndorfs in this chambering ....paul

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m4220
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: pjaln]
      #121156 - 14/12/08 02:14 PM

Paul,
Are you certain of this? The 1 box of 8x60S Magnum is clearly marked Magnum & I have many other boxes marked just as 8 x60S and now several more boxes marked 8x60 Normal. I am assumiming that there were also 8x57I bores rifles that had the chambers pushed out to 8x60 when marshall law was declared and they were not allowed to own rifles in military calibres. Let's see what kind of opinions we get on this but I think I am going to have to open one of the boxes & measure the bullet to be certain in my mind. Has anyone ever seen or owned a gun chambered in 8x60 with the smaller .318 groove diameter?

m4220


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xausa
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: m4220]
      #121157 - 14/12/08 02:40 PM

I own a drilling in 8X60R with the .318" bullet diameter. The S indicates the .323" diameter. Whether "Normal" indicates bullet size is beyond me, but I wouldn't take anyone's word for it. By all means, measure the bullet!

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pjaln
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: xausa]
      #121158 - 14/12/08 03:11 PM

i pretty sure the normal means lower velocity loading and not .318 bore , magnum or magnum bombe should be higher velocity 170 grain bullet ...paul

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tinker
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: pjaln]
      #121159 - 14/12/08 03:32 PM

I have owned a boxlock ejector double rifle, built in 1939 for the rimmed 8x60 Magnum - with a .318 groove diameter.

I currently posess a Bartel's Mauser from the mid-20's, chambered in the .318 groove 8x60 Magnum.

Both rifles set up for hot loads an jacketed bullets.

We have a couple of members here from the Motherland who can clarify the timeline and historical significance to the marketing vernacular specific to the suffix of 'normal' and 'bombe'

I simply load mine with Woodleighs and run them to hit to the sights. That keeps things simple and I have no concerns as to how well they'll kill game.


Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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m4220
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: pjaln]
      #121160 - 14/12/08 03:43 PM

Paul,
According to Dixon's book "European sporting cartridges" pg 169 8x60 Mauser " the 8x60 is the older "J" type smaller diameter bullet is believed to have been introduced shortly after the 8x60S type to allow re-chambering the older 8x57J Mauser rifles for sporting use. Last listed by IWK (DWM)
until it went out of business in 1972". Case listed as W 36

Case listed as W 37 8x60S Mauser
" The "S" bullet diameter 8x60 was the first of the 8x60 types, introduced by DWM c1920 in responce to the 1918 German gun laws. This allowed sporting use of re-chambered 8x57S Mauser rifles, as that calibre was banned after WWI. The longer case actually improved performance and became very popular, improved over the years with the more powerful Magnum and Magnum Bombe loadings. Still made by RWS into the 1990's."

The question of the Normal designation has puzzled me for some time due to the different articles I have read. I quess I will have to dig them all out tomorrow and measure and report back. If you would like send me a PM with your e-mail address & I will snap a picture with the different bullets with their original boxes & measurements. 1 other comment is from what I have read the rim is suppose to be knurled on the Magnum Bombe cartridge, this does not ring true with the box that I have the cases look the same so I tend to be a little skepticle of what is written and have to prove it out to myself by purchasing sealed factory boxes and inspecting them. After todays purchase I have some of each and tomorrow I will measure them & report my finding.

m4220


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tinker
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: m4220]
      #121161 - 14/12/08 03:50 PM

There has indeed been quite a bit of BS published on the 8x60 (mauser based) cartridge.
There's much fantasy and confusion out there in the public realm regarding this.

If you are going to inspect New Old Stock factory cartridges, I suggest that for part of your exercise you get them to a rifle and park a good chronograph in front of it.

Let us know what velocity differences you find.



Cheers

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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9.3x57
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: tinker]
      #121163 - 14/12/08 04:14 PM

Here's another vote for a chronograph reality check.

Would be very interesting.

I have read various sources referring to the "NORMAL" designation also referring to .318 bore but cannot say for sure if it is true.

Will be interested also in reading what you all find out.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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m4220
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: tinker]
      #121164 - 14/12/08 04:40 PM

OK guy's, I just went & dug 4 different boxes out.

RWS 8x60S H Mtl. Kupferhohlspitze 30mm, 12,1 g Pulverladung 3,7 g Sp.P.,Lab-Nr 122 .322 dia.

RWS 8x60S (Magnum)H MantelgeschoB Scharfrand Kupferspitze 12,1 g Pulverladung 3,7 gr Spezialpulver .321 dia.

IWK 8x60S NORMALISIERT Geschof: Teilmantel-Rundkopf 12,7 g Normale ladung: 3,0 g R5 .323 dia.

RWS 8x60 NORMALLSLERT D-MantelgeschoB 11,5 gr Pulverladung 3,25 gr T.39 .319 dia.

Here you go just to add to the confusion
1st 2 boxes silver bullets with copper pointed caps
3rd box silver bullet with lead exposed round nose
4th box silver bullet with copper cap hollow point

Everybody straight now?!!!!!!!

m4220


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BFaucett
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: m4220]
      #121171 - 14/12/08 05:58 PM




8x60N 8.07 mm = 0.317717 inch

8x60S 8.20 mm = 0.322835 inch






Looking over these two catalogs (also the bullet diameter info pages not shown in the scans) as well as one other DWM catalog from 1935, this is what I've pieced together:

8x60 N = .318" groove

8x60 S = .323" groove

8X60 Magnum Bomb = special higher velocity loading of the 8x60 S


Cheers!
-Bob F.


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dons
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: m4220]
      #121186 - 15/12/08 12:10 AM

To add to the confusion, Mauser stamped the caliber markings on the barrel using their own code when the rifles were produced. I have seen the following stampings for the 8x60 round. The first 2 were .318 D., the rest were .323 D.

8x60 (normal loading)
8x60N (normal loading)
8x60S (normal loading)
8x60M (hotter loading)
8x60 Magnum (hotter loading)
8x60HV (magnum bombe)


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pjaln
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: dons]
      #121192 - 15/12/08 12:47 AM

that probably being what bullet weight the open sights may have been sighted for ....who really knows,... mine says 8X60 havent taken it out of the stock,because it looks like never has been out , serial number is 107xxx there sone i,m looking at clearly marked 8X60 H.V.its is also earlier 5 digit gun ....paul

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9.3x57
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: BFaucett]
      #121196 - 15/12/08 01:48 AM

Quote:

Looking over these two catalogs (also the bullet diameter info pages not shown in the scans) as well as one other DWM catalog from 1935, this is what I've pieced together:

8x60 N = .318" groove

8x60 S = .323" groove

8X60 Magnum Bomb = special higher velocity loading of the 8x60 S





Bob: this is precisely the way I always thought it was also, with all the rest of the descriptions being marketing hype and/or gibberish.

For years I've read this and that about how much more powerful the 8x60 Magnum Bombe load was than the .30-06 or the standard 8x60 or, or, or, etc, etc, etc. For years I've read about this Patrone, and this "mysterious" cartridge seems to be the center of alot of assertions by gun writers and others who possibly had little actual experience with the round?

I'd love to see the truth exposed.

How about a series of chronograph results posted of the various congomulations, conordinations and fobaculations of the round!

Great thread!!

I love this site.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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m4220
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: pjaln]
      #121198 - 15/12/08 02:15 AM

Good Morning Guy's,

I was hoping that someone from across the pond would jump in with their explanation on this great round and help clear the air. This is probally why you hear everyone say that the 8x60 is a handloaders cartridge and why it is impairative that you slug the bore of your 8x60 rifle and know what you have especially if you have a .318 bore rifle. It's to bad that there is so much confusion as to how this cartridge was labeled if you do not handload you need to be aware of these facts because I really like the design of the original bullets I hate to waste them by firing them just so I can reload with known components that fit my gun. So, the cartridges that I purchased yesterday have the smaller bullets and although due to having a .323 bore rifle and being able to fire these through it and reload with known size components I hate to waste these bullets, this being said I will throw it out there that I have (6) boxes 10 rounds each of the RWS 8x60 with hollow point D- MantelgeschoB bullets that I may be willing to sell or trade for factory loaded ammo with the .323 bullets or I may just have to keep in the collection in case another rifle comes along that has a .318 bore. If these happen to be what you need for your rifle I am open to offers otherwise these will probally just sit on the shelf awaiting that new rifle. I encourage anyone that is familiar with this cartridge and it's variations to jump in and help educate us all on it's
marketing and package markings.

m4220


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tinker
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: m4220]
      #121202 - 15/12/08 03:39 AM

I will patiently hang on for our friends from the old world, in the meantime I'll notice for this part of the conversation -- that 'Bombe' or H.V. loading seems to accomplish this via a lighter bullet, not necessarily an exotic 'hot load'.

Otherwise it looks like a
196gr bullet at ~2500 or so FPS
227gr bullet at ~2300 or so FPS
or
187gr bullet at ~2700 or so FPS
for the 'Bombe' or H.V. load

From my experience with the BLE double rifle (which had 26+" barrels) and the Woodleighs, 2500 FPS is about right in real world shooting-to-regulation perspective.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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bpesteve
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: m4220]
      #121209 - 15/12/08 04:07 AM

The best explanation of "Normal" as it applies to German cartridges is that in Dixon's "European Sporting Cartridges" vol I, page 126 under "Normalised Calibres". A few lines from that page illustrate the normalization concept:

"A major problem with the number of companies producing cartridges in Germany was that many introduced their own types similar but apparently non-interchangeable with other companies."

"Evidently beginning in 1909 the German arms industry (supported by DWM and RWS) established the official dimensions of a number of such calibres."

"Progressively through the 1920s, 30s, 40s and even into the 1950s, more calibres went through this process and were shown in DWM and RWS catalogs as being standardised."

Dixon then shows a table listing many cartridges and their "Normalised" dates, the 8x60S being before 1923 and the 8x60R before 1934. The plain 8x60 is not in that table, though it is suspicious that the 8x60S is in there twice. The earliest entries are dated 1912 and 1913 which include the 8x57 family (J, JR, JS, JRS) and the wildly variable 9,3x72R.

Basically a cartridge labeled as 'Normal' indicated that it adhered to the industry agreed upon standard dimensions. This means (to me anyway...) that a box of ammo labeled '8x60 Normal' would be built to standard cartridge dimensions and carry .318" bullets; I would also expect to find boxes of ammo out there that read '8x60S Normal' for those with 323" bullets as shown in m4220's post above.


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m4220
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: tinker]
      #121210 - 15/12/08 04:13 AM

Tinker,

I think you are right on about velocities & bullet weights but this topic is also about about education on bore size & Factory ammunition markings, so far I have concluded that factory ammo will be marked as 8x60S if loaded with the .323 dia. bullets, if the "S" designation is not marked on the box the bullets are likely to be .318 dia. I wanted to help educate those shooting factory ammo in there guns to be aware of these markings on the ammo as we don't wish to see anyone hurt or these great rifles hurt due to excessive presures generated by pushing a .005 larger dia. bullet through their .318 bore! Looks like the "normal" refers to powder charge & D- or H- or N- have to do with the bullet design & weight. Anyone agree with my summary so far? I am really looking forward and hope others will join in to help dispel the myth's surrounding this great cartridge!
By the way has anybody ever seen a factory box marked Magnum or Magnum Bombe? I have only seen the one box that I purchased (Expensive at the Time).

m4220


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m4220
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Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: m4220]
      #121215 - 15/12/08 04:55 AM

Here is a posting that I borrowed from another site that helps with the understanding and the timelines osurrounding the 8mm cartridges.

The rise and fall of calibres are sometimes as a result of specific circumstances and not because they did not perform well enough. In the sporting or hunting world, we see clearly the preference of the American/British group favouring imperial calibres, whilst in Europe they like their metric calibres. However there are a few exceptions today, such as the ever so popular 7 mm Remington Magnum in the USA. The goal of this article is to give an overall view specifically on the 8 mm family of cartridges and why they are not so widely used anymore. Let us look at 2 standard calibres, the 8 x 57 mm and the 8 x 60 mm, and 2 magnum calibres, the 8 x 68 mm and the 8 mm Rem Magnum. For brevity sake, I have ignored the other less common 8 mm offerings, as well as all the 8 mm wildcats.

Germany fought 2 world wars with the 8 x 57 mm Mauser (all the above mentioned calibres were hunting cartridges ) ... quite remarkable, it speaks of excellent design and service by this calibre. The 8 x 57 mm Mauser was adopted as the German service rifle way back in 1888 - this was the date when it all began for the 8 mm family that was to follow. Initially it had a diameter of .318" but it was later changed to .323" in 1905. Little could they foresee the major impact that their 1888 design would have on the gun world. It was used both by the military and by hunters.
Hitler denounced the Treaty of Versailles in 1934 and started with rapid re-armament in June 1935. This time, Germany went to war with the short version of the Mauser, the Karbiner 98 Kurz - it had a 23.6 inch barrel instead of a 29 inch barrel, as it was too long for trench warfare. Between 1934 and 1945, over 14 million were manufactured. While reloading was slower than with a .303 Br, the German Kar-98ks accuracy was more than enough to make up for it. The Mausers rate of fire was 15 rounds per minute, whereas for the British .303, it was 20 rounds per minute, but with a detachable magazine holding 10 rounds. The Mauser had a magazine capacity of only 5, and so stripper-clips were used to reload quicker, but it was obviously slower than the .303 Br, where one could just insert a fully loaded magazine of bigger capacity. It is interesting to know, that just before the start of World War 2, the Germans replaced the 154 gr spitzer bullet at 2,880 fps with a 198 gr spitzer boatail bullet at 2,575 fps. The main reason was that the bigger powder charge of the 154 gr load produced excessive muzzle flash in the shorter barrel. At the same time they gained better sectional density even though they sacrificed velocity - overall a much more lethal and devastating load ... more momentum and better penetration whilst the lower velocity was less destructive on the bullet. Norma of Sweden still offers ammo for the 8 x 57 mm - a 196 grainer at 2,526 fps, which is ideal for larger antelope at short to medium range. Ironic enough, there was an influx of military 8 x 57 mm rifles into America after the war, and so American ammo manufacturers started to produce ammo for this calibre, but it was totally under loaded and thus its popularity waned against the 30-06 Spr. Here is their load with a 170 gr bullet and it is also happens to be their only load for the calibre:

IMR 4350 --- 43 gr --- 2,315 fps --- 36,800 CUP

After Germany lost the First World War, the Peace Treaty of Versailles limited the number of 8 mm Mauser rifles to a mere 100,000; barely adequate for Germanys defense and sporting fraternity. Strangely enough, sporting rifles of sportsmen were included as well. To comply with the treaty and to save many rifles, it was decided to redesign the calibre, by extending the case to 60 millimeters. This was a minor change, and original barrels were simply re-chambered - everything else remained the same. Amazing you might say, the perception to control or the illusion to control the German Folk. So, the 8 x 60 mm Mauser became the new sporting rifle of Germany and it gained immediate popularity - not much of a choice. Luckily for us, the 7 x 57 mm Mauser escaped the same fate, and continues to be popular even till today in South Africa.

Ballistically, the 8 x 60 mms longer case with its greater powder capacity, was capable of a higher velocity, shooting the same bullet. Its popularity spilled over to Austria, Belgium and France. The sporting version of the Mauser, model A and B, became very sought after amongst hunters the world over. K98 actions were sold to various rifle builders, including the British gun trade. It is estimated that overall, more than a 100 million standard military Mauser 98 actions were built and about 126,400 sporter Mauser actions were built by the Oberndorf factory. Today, the custom built rifle trade is thriving, particularly in Europe - The Model 98 Mauser action is still the undisputed choice for hunting rifles. The ingenuity of the Mauser design is what makes it so special, such as controlled round feeding, secure extraction and its excellent gas deflection system.

The 8 x 60 mm was dropped from production in Germany in the late 1950s, but Belgium were still making it for a good 20 years more. We should bear in mind that the Mauser factory was destroyed after WW2 and Germany was in turmoil. This cartridge was ideal for Europes big game such as Red Stag. Bullets vary from 154 grains to 227 grains and so the 8 x 60 mm rifle could be used for both long and short range work. Another popular bullet weight for the calibre was a 185 grainer. With a heavy bullet, such as a 227 grainer, the biggest antelope everywhere could be hunted for meat. The 8 x 60 mm saw use in the former Belgium colonies in Africa as well as in the RSA and the former SWA. Belgium and French hunters were not allowed to own 30-06 Spr rifles, as it was considered a military calibre, and hence the 8 x 60 mm was the closest rival. Sadly, about 5 years ago, RWS announced that they have discontinued their factory load, firing a 187 gr bullet at 2,810 fps, which is a very hot load in my opinion. However, I did still see some RWS ammo a year ago on Formalitos shelf. Handloads with a 200 gr Nosler Partition bullet will yield around 2,400 fps at safe pressure levels.

Another German design, was the 8 x 68 mm for long range work. With its bigger case, it could propel the heaviest 8 mm bullets at what was considered magnum velocities, way back then. The most popular bullet weight was a 224 gr soft point bullet - the standard factory load. I consider the stronger constructed 220 gr Swift A-Frame bullet to be the optimum for this calibre (2,700 fps). The 8 x 68 mm has the same powder capacity as the 300 H&H. The 8 x 68 mm was introduced in 1938 and it was setting the standards during those early years. However, it never gained a strong following in North America, for its elk and moose, or in Africa for Eland. Its main stronghold has been confined to Europe. The 8 x 68 mm was however popular with French and Spanish sportsmen, although relatively few were built up to WW2. In America though, the 300 Weatherby Magnum, introduced in 1948, provided stiff competition, whilst the 300 Win Mag became only available in 1963. Today the 8 x 68 mm calibre is declining in sales even though it is perhaps the most potent 8 mm calibre, shooting a 224 gr bullet. Ballistically, I would much rather prefer using a heavier bullet, than the other magnum calibres that mostly offer factory loaded ammo with 180 gr bullets. The neck of the 8 x 68 mm case is long in comparison with the 300 Win Mag, and is thus better able to hold a long bullet, such as a 224 grainer. 8 x 68 mm ammo has become scarce though, but it is still offered by RWS. The following load comes from a Rottweil reloading manual:

Min Load: 60 gr Rottweil R907 -- 224 gr RWS-KS bullet -- AOL 85.1 mm -- 2,477 fps
Max Load: 63 gr Rottweil R907 -- 224 gr RWS-KS bullet -- AOL 85.1 mm -- 2,625 fps

Remington introduced their 8 mm Rem magnum in 1977. It was based on the 375 H&Hs big case, just like the 300 H&H - 72.39 mm, about 4.4 mm longer than the German 8 x 68 mm. Strangely enough, it also did not become popular as its use was limited to the biggest North American game. Again, an excellent design. Only one proviso, like with all magnums, it should be used with strongly constructed bullets to prevent them blowing up on big and tough game. Poor bullets can ruin a calibres reputation ... we should never forget, the bullet is doing the killing and bullet performance is what counts ultimately. Initially, Remington offered 2 bullet weights - 185 grains and 220 grains, but the only factory ammunition offered today by Remington is a 200 gr Swift A-Frame bullet at 2,900 fps. It yields a fairly sharp recoil; more than the .300 Win Mag. Col. Craig Boddington, an American gun writer an avid hunter says .... "The 8 mm Remington Magnum has become one of my favorite hunting cartridges" - for elk, that is. Furthermore, he prefers handloading as he believes factory loads, i.e. 200 grain bullets, are not up to the calibres potential. What does he mean? ... Let me quote the man - "The Big Eight needs handloads with 220-grain bullets to reach its full potential". The message is very clear; increase your bullet weight. I love my 300 H&H, which also gives sterling performance with 200 and 220 grainers, but at somewhat lower velocities, as its case holds about 15% less powder. The 300 H&H became quite popular in South Africa and other former English African colonies, between its introduction in 1920 and 1963, when former British colonies became independent and the British had to leave.

A last thought ... of all the 8 mm calibres, the 8 x 68 is really the only one that promoted shooting the heaviest bullet, i.e. 224 grains, with a sectional density of .307.Most of the .300 Magnums came with 180 and 200 grain factory loads, with the exception of the 300 H&H, as Winchester used to offer a 220 gr load at 2,620 fps, but no more. I do believe that an eland needs a strongly constructed 220 grainer. I remember very well one day during 1977, when I was shooting on the bench with the late Willie Klotz, when he said to me that the 8 x 68 mm was for the connoisseur, and that it was quite unique in what it offers ... I was bedazzled, I did not quite understand and nor did he offer an explanation, perhaps because it was so obvious to him. Being a German gunsmith his whole life, he regarded himself as an expert in any event. What could the benefits possibly be over the 300 magnums?

* It is better suited to be built on a modified standard K98 action, as it has a shorter case than a 300 H&H or a 300 Weatherby Magnum.

* It yields lower pressure than the .300 Magnums, as the diameter is bigger and hence the expanded volume gets bigger as the bullet leaves the case when fired.

* It is a genuine Mauser design on a Mauser action.
* Some might consider its beltless case an advantage.

I would like to throw a stone in the bush now ... Did Winchesters .338 Win Mag, introduced in 1958, not perhaps occupy the US market for bullet weights between 225 and 250 grain, being the calibre of choice for long range big antelope, such as elk? A bit bigger bore than an 8 mm, but still a contender. Especially the 250 grainer in .338", with its good sectional density of .313, launched at 2,660 fps. However, the .338 Win Mag could not get itself entrenched in the SA market though, because of the arms embargo period (1979- 1994). It may change slowly now, but I think the 375 H&H has already captured that section of the market for bigger game and the fact that the .338 is not legal on buffalo.

Who will develop the next 8 mm calibre? Who is promoting the 8 mm today? Remington? I dont think so, as the one they have is good enough. Will Winchester perhaps go for a 8 mm after all the years during which they never had one? I doubt it. Will any European country? I dont think so, as the 8 x 68 mm is well designed. The 8 x 60 mm is history, as no manufacturer chambers for it anymore, but in my opinion, just as good as a 30-06 Spr. So, it looks like the 8 mm market has become stagnant. It has nothing to do with design. Existing rifles will be inherited by the next generation, who might use them or the youth might even have their own preferences. Once bullets and cases are becoming scarce, the end is near. I guess, sad circumstances killed the 8 mm and the present day mania of manufacturers to push lighter bullets faster as opposed to sacrifice some velocity for increased bullet weight. With scarcity of components and the high cost of imports, the most viable option seems to be the 300 H&H, if you have a need for a 220 grain bullet, but you will have to handload as all factory ammo only comes in 180 gr bullets. Also, no factory made rifles are offered anymore in 300 H&H - you have to get one custom built if you want a new one. We as hunters, must voice our opinions as to what we want. Most gun writers will write what their masters, who pay them, would like to hear. The new wave now is the short magnums by Winchester, which will most probably supercede the recent wave that Remington had with its ultra magnums, but sadly they too, by virtue of a short case neck and shoulder, cannot offer the hunter 220 gr loads.

John Pondoro Taylor already said in the 1930s that we had too many calibres, when he proposed that we only keep a bakers dozen (13). A tough call ... especially for today, with its unabated proliferation of calibres!


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FrankMartinez
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Reged: 20/08/04
Posts: 111
Loc: The real Northern CA, USA
Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: m4220]
      #121241 - 15/12/08 10:38 AM

What a great bit of information.
I thought I would go ahead and post photos of my 8x60 Magnum also in .323
Frank









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pjaln
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Reged: 08/06/06
Posts: 708
Loc: massachusetts ,U.S.A.
Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: FrankMartinez]
      #121243 - 15/12/08 10:46 AM

frank,nice gun, looks like an oberndorf action , i wonder if that last sight is for actually shooting something or just scaring it!!...paul

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FrankMartinez
.300 member


Reged: 20/08/04
Posts: 111
Loc: The real Northern CA, USA
Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: pjaln]
      #121260 - 15/12/08 02:39 PM

The sight is actually rated to 1200 meters. Hell, I can barely see 1200 meters much less put a shot into an animal at that distance.
Frank


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: dons]
      #148506 - 21/12/09 03:52 PM

Just got back to this thread for a peek --


Quote:

To add to the confusion, Mauser stamped the caliber markings on the barrel using their own code when the rifles were produced. I have seen the following stampings for the 8x60 round. The first 2 were .318 D., the rest were .323 D.

8x60 (normal loading)
8x60N (normal loading)
8x60S (normal loading)
8x60M (hotter loading)
8x60 Magnum (hotter loading)
8x60HV (magnum bombe)





I should note that the Mauser sporting rifle I've had here that's marked '8x60 Magnum' is bored for the .318 bullet.
Although it's been ages since I've handled or shot it, memory says it hit to the sights with the same load that the 1939-built .318 boxlock ejector rifle (liege) that was marked '8x60 B.Blindee' (jacketed nitro loads)
The load got the Woodleigh RN into the 2500fpsMV neighborhood.






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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m4220
.300 member


Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 233
Loc: wa
Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: m4220]
      #156422 - 14/03/10 06:49 AM

Hi,
Thought I would check back on this interesting post as it seems that we are all in agreement as to what a great cartridge that this is. Suprised that there are no new additions to the subject. I know that several of you were finding ammo hard to find. I have recently aqquired a 2nd set of RCBS dies for this calibre and would possibly sell them or trade for some full boxes of vintage German ammo as I also collect original full boxes of obsolete German ammo, and if this were to help someone get their rifle up and shooting I might be willing to entertain offers for these dies. Just thought I would throw the idea out to see if I get any interesting offers.

thanks
m4220


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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3525
Loc: Colorado
Re: 8x60 NORMAL vs 8x60S [Re: m4220]
      #156440 - 14/03/10 11:52 AM

I just bought an Oberndorf Mauser TypeG in 8X60 Magnum.
I am assuming (after measuring the bore) the standard 8X60S shells can be fired in it - right.
Also, were the Mausers marked specifically for the 8X60 Magnum built any differently than the rifles marked simply 8X60, 8X60S, or Magnum Bombe?
Perhaps the twist rate is different?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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