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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Forum Photos & Archive
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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Determining barrel shank size
      #251163 - 28/07/14 06:24 AM

Is there some way of determining barrel shank size on a commercial Mauser action without removing the barrel from the action? I have a Type B Sporter with what appears to be a factory installed claw scope mount. The front base is dovetailed into the receiver ring.



I believe the Mauser factory used large ring small shank actions when they made such an installation and I would like to determine if this is the case with my rifle without having to disassemble it to satisfy my curiosity.

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pjaln
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Re: Determining barrel shank size [Re: xausa]
      #251182 - 28/07/14 09:32 AM

im pretty sure the factory would have made it a squarebridge if the scope was wanted from the get go ,,,i think this is discussed in speeds book ,,i would,nt worry about how much metal is left under the base you could,nt blow the action up if you wanted to ,,BTW is the bolt numbered to this gun it looks odd at the shoulder ...paul

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Igorrock
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Re: Determining barrel shank size [Re: pjaln]
      #251204 - 28/07/14 10:26 PM

I think you could just go to local hospital and ask if they would x-ray yours rifles action......

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Determining barrel shank size [Re: pjaln]
      #251232 - 29/07/14 05:39 AM

"i would,nt worry about how much metal is left under the base you could,nt blow the action up if you wanted to"

Safety is not an issue. I am simply curious about the size of the barrel shank. A small shank would indicate to me that the scope installation was factory original.

"BTW is the bolt numbered to this gun it looks odd at the shoulder "

The bolt is serial numbered to the rest of the rifle. No issue there.

Igorrock:

When I was growing up, it might have been possible to take a rifle in to our local clinic (no hospital available locally) and have it x-rayed. I recently had an x-ray done of my hip locally and the amount my insurance company was charged for it was astronomical. It would be far cheaper to have a gunsmith remove the barrel replace it. I'm not that curious about a rifle I don't plan to keep in any case.

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kuduae
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Re: Determining barrel shank size [Re: xausa]
      #251234 - 29/07/14 06:10 AM

Quote:

A small shank would indicate to me that the scope installation was factory original.


This Suhl type scope mount certainly is not "Mauser factory original". Mauser always used their own rear ring design on a square bridge, with a sideways push-button release, when a scoped rifle was ordered. Such Suhl type mounts as on your rifle were usually put on by individual gunsmithes who retailed rifle and/or scope.
Until a few years ago the German proofhouses accepted most rifles with front scope bases dovetailed into the receiver ring,if the cut was not too deep. They simply pushed the base out of the dovetail and had a look. If the metal below the base was intact, the rifle was accepted for proof. If the barrel threads were visible or even cut into, the Action was rejected. But this was still the time when most rifles were for standard, not magnum, pressure loads, most Germans using factory loads only. The proofhouses now frown upon cut receiver rings, as more and more large base, high pressure Magnum cartridges are used and handloaders often try to squeeze the last few m/s or fps out of standard cases, making a 30-06 perform like a 300 Win Mag or a 7x64 like a 7mm Rem Mag.

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deepwoods
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Re: Determining barrel shank size [Re: kuduae]
      #251246 - 29/07/14 12:12 PM

I agree with Kuduae on the claw mounts not being factory installed. Claw mounts were what a gunsmith in Europe would usually install upon request from the owner of the rifle.

Edited by deepwoods (29/07/14 12:13 PM)

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: Determining barrel shank size [Re: kuduae]
      #251263 - 30/07/14 01:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

A small shank would indicate to me that the scope installation was factory original.


This Suhl type scope mount certainly is not "Mauser factory original". Mauser always used their own rear ring design on a square bridge, with a sideways push-button release, when a scoped rifle was ordered.



Now I am confused. On page 96 of Speed's Archive book (plate 170) there is an illustration of a factory installed scope mount on a round top action. On page 96 (plate 177) there is an illustration of a double square bridge rifle whose rear bridge was "milled down and fitted with a screw-on double-claw base." Plate 178 (page 97) illustrates another non-standard scope mount installed on a round top action.

I was left with the impression that the factory would install whatever mount the customer wanted.

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kuduae
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Re: Determining barrel shank size [Re: xausa]
      #251264 - 30/07/14 02:37 AM

Quote:

On page 96 of Speed's Archive book (plate 170) there is an illustration of a factory installed scope mount on a round top action. On page 96 (plate 177) there is an illustration of a double square bridge rifle whose rear bridge was "milled down and fitted with a screw-on double-claw base." Plate 178 (page 97) illustrates another non-standard scope mount installed on a round top action.
I was left with the impression that the factory would install whatever mount the customer wanted.


Plate 170 Shows merely a drawing of a mount project for a Zeiss Zielklein scope. Noone has yet seen such a mount by the Mauser factory.
All the other plates Show contemporary "aftermarket" mounts:
Plate 177 is an aftermarket claw mount , standard Suhl type, mounted by an individual gunsmith, with the soldered on half-rings.
Plate 178 shows a variant of the claw mount made by A. Schüler, Suhl.
Plate 180 is a mount by Albert Wilhelm Triebel, Suhl, as are the mounts shown in plates 190,191,205.
Plate 192 shows a Wiener Schnäppermontage.
Obviously Mauser kept photos of these non-Mauser, aftermarket mount systems as examples only in their archive. More non-factory scope mounts are shown in Jon Speed’s first book “Mauser – Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles”:
Plate 333 Vienna snap-on mount again
335 Greifelt, Suhl side mount
349, 603, 605, 972, 973, 974, “standard” Suhl claw mounts like on your rifle.

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justcurious
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Reged: 17/03/10
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Re: Determining barrel shank size [Re: kuduae]
      #251285 - 30/07/14 07:38 PM

I believe that the background of xausa´s initial question is the statement of Dorleac somewhere on this forum. He wrote that Mauser used to take only large ring/small shank actions when dovetailing the front receiver ring for a scope mount. I appreciate very much Dorleac´s deep knowledge of Mauser actions and rifles , but in that case I have to disagree. It would imply that the engeneers at Oberndorf mistrusted the stability of the action after slotting the front ring in case of the large ring/standard shank.
#1.

They didn´t hesitate to cut the receiver ring on the Kurz Mausers single square bridge when they applied scopes with the original Mauser mount.
Wall thickness in case of large ring / small shank .155 .Smallring/small shank (Kurz action): .160 .
Not a real difference.

#2.
I have encountered a couple of single square bridge actions ,large ring standard shank with the original 3 foot Mauser mount and front base dovetailed into the receiver ring.

#3.
It is nearly impossible to determine in the case of a Suhl type mounting if it was done in the Oberndorf plant or aftermarket by a gunsmith elsewhere.
#4.
As a rule of thumb I would say that a Suhl type mount done at the factory is an exception and the action type (small or large barrel shank) is in no way a sign of the origin.

#5.
After nearly over 40 years in dealing with Commercial Oberndorf rifles I have learned to
avoid the terms "always" and "never"

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crf
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Reged: 01/01/15
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Loc: Idaho USA
Re: Determining barrel shank size [Re: xausa]
      #261789 - 06/03/15 11:31 AM

It is possible to see the barrel threads on the righthand side with bolt removed, looking from rear of action. Good light and a standard large ring (military) action to compare with might make it easier to see the difference. The small thread barrel in large ring action is easy to see in this manor.
Good luck.
CRF

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DORLEAC
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Reged: 22/01/12
Posts: 464
Loc: Perpignan, France
Re: Determining barrel shank size [Re: justcurious]
      #262056 - 11/03/15 03:52 AM

Just curious, you are right !
Mauser used to take large ring/small shank actions when dovetailing the front receiver ring for a scope mount…but not “always”.
Like you, I have encountered small ring K type with the front receiver dovetailed and large ring/large shank actions factory dovetailed for the front mount plate.
However on the ones I have had in hand the cut didn’t go to the threads…but I can’t say that they “never” have done deeper milling.
There’s the rule and there’s the reality and when production demands they go to what they have on hands...

Best.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com

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