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vegard_dino
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Mauser 71/84....Some information.
      #212710 - 15/07/12 06:39 AM



Hello all.

I was over at a friends house and the they did show me a old rifle, odd looking at first. Some kind of early bolt action I was thinking.

After some photos and taking notes, I did found out that it is the Mauser (I.G?), model 71/84.

The serial number on the barrel, bolt and action is the same, 27681.
It is also stamped with a crown and AMBERG under.

I am not sure how to post photos, sorry all......I am trying..but far far from a pc expert I am....

But, any information on the rifle, action, caliber?

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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vegard_dino
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: vegard_dino]
      #212744 - 15/07/12 04:22 PM

Yes, made it..

Photo of the action.



And of the marks on the side.



--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino

Edited by CptCurl (12/11/12 02:48 AM)


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kuduae
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: vegard_dino]
      #212752 - 15/07/12 05:55 PM

It is an "Infantrie-Gewehr" = infantry rifle model 71/84, a tube magazine repeater in 11.15x60R Mauser, made by the royal Bavarian arsenal in Amberg. In 1884 the Mauser Model 1871, a single-shot bolt action, was "modernized" by adding a tubular magazine under the barrel.

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vegard_dino
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: kuduae]
      #212775 - 16/07/12 01:32 AM



Hello.

Thanks for the information. Interesting.
Was it is service for a long time?
Any information on the serial number on when it was made?
Interesting to know how/why it did end up in Norway, at a local farms house....Maybe used for hunting.

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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DarylS
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: vegard_dino]
      #212783 - 16/07/12 02:06 AM

The Model 71/76 superseeded the Model 71/84. In the 71/76, the bore diameter was normal at .437", however the groove diameter was .457" - supposedly to better collect the fouling for longer shooting strings before military accuracy was comprimized. The bullet was a paper patched ,446" bullet, a full .011" smaller than the groove diameter.

Due to being a soft, paper patched bullet loaded with the 77gr. black powder charge, the bullet would obturate to fill the rifling when fired and accuracy was pretty good- for a while. The chamber's neck dimaeter would not allow seating a bullet larger than the normal .446", hense in later years ie: 1900's through to about 1960 in Canada, when CIL/Dominion produced this amo for the civilian market with a paper patched bullet and smokeless powder, the accuracy was horrid - in the earlier rifles. This was because smokeless powder does not hit the base of the bullet quickly enough, too soft a blow, to cause obturation. Thus, the bullet's paper coating would be burnt off in it's trip down the bore and accuracy was horrid.

The model of 71/84, actually had a much better bore- size/wise wit it's .446" groove diameter and this rifle model shot the much later smokeless ammo quite well, usually into 3" at 100 meters with the rifle's issue sights - which were quite good as far as early sights go.

This pictured rifle is a 71/76 9with new ramp front sight installed due to the original being missing.

At the time I was given this rifle, I couldn't obtain Starline brass for it and due to the chamber neck's limitations as to bullet size, I rechambered it for the .450 Alaskan by grinding down the pilot to .437" to fit the bore. It's a great handling little carbine and shoots well due to the 20" twist rate. It's light at only 6 pounds and the 500gr. cast bullets at 1,320fps do kick a bit (BP load). It easily handles smokeless loads with those same 500's running 1,500fps. It's a thunper.
For a gun in good condition with collector value, I'd not suggest this move, except for another 71/76 which wanted to go hunting. In that case, a simply neck/throater to open up the neck would suffice. Brass is available today in the original 11 mm Mauser.









--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (12/11/12 02:49 AM)


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vegard_dino
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: DarylS]
      #212796 - 16/07/12 06:56 AM



Hello and thank you for the information.
You hunt with your 71/76?

It will sure be interesting to get some ammunition and try the old rifle.
Back then, was it a good action?

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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DarylS
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: vegard_dino]
      #212861 - 17/07/12 01:10 AM

The M71 was WAYYYYYYYY ahead of it's time. Just think, the best the US Military could come up with was a bunch of single shots with VERY weak actions Ie: Trapdoor Springfield being the best and in Germany, the Mauser brothers came up with a REAL bolt actioned MAUSER rifle with super sights and in comparrison, rapid firing without the Springfield copper case sticking problems.

I understand the first bulk order Peter Mauser got on the M71 was with Austria, for 3,000 rear sights only. Yeah - a disapointment, but that sight, with a ladder as well as flip-up blade was a good one.

I haven't hunted with this carbine --- yet - but am sitting on some 60 rounds loaded, ready for a range testing session, with from 385gr. to 550gr. bullets. I injured my right shoulder's cartilage shortly after working up some preliminary 500gr. loads for this rifle and with other, lighter kicking guns to play with, forgot about it until now.

Thanks for reminding me about my M71 - time to play!

Good luck with yours, Vegard_dino - the 8mm will be a lot of fun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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vegard_dino
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: DarylS]
      #213346 - 24/07/12 03:54 AM



Thanks Daryl.


Thanks for the reply and information.


Hope to hear how it all goes. What fps you get, how accurate it is and yes how the hunting goes.

I am sure it will be a great short range gun for deer, boar and so. MAybe not for moose.

Will lett you know how it goes with my 71/84.

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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Rolf
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: vegard_dino]
      #213481 - 26/07/12 08:25 PM

Hello Gentlemen,

I have a M71 military single shot rifle in my possession and I am looking for a safe nitro-powder load for target practise, upto now to no with result.
The original load of the M71 (caliber designation 11,15x60R, not to confuse with the 11,15x60R Schueler!)was a lead bullet (paper patched) of about 380grains for about 400 m/s / 1400fps.


Here are two loading reciopes from the internet (for information only)

"The loading information I use for the 11 mm is as follows: What I am giving you here are the loads I have found work best to this point. Please understand with no baseline I kissed many toads before comming up with a princess. All loads use a wax paper cover wad between the cushion wad and bullet base.
Black Powder, goex FFg
Case Length: 2.320
Powder: 72 gr
Wads 1 .060 or 2 .030 fiber
Bullet Lyman 436 gr seated .500 (measured from case top to bullet top. .120 compresson)
RCBS 396 gr seated .550
Lube: 50/50 melted mix of Thompson pruple stuff and Thompson patch lube.

Pyrodex loads, use pyrodex RS
Case lentgth: 2.320
Powder: 50 grains
Wads: 1 .060 or 2 .030 fiber
Primer: CCI LR
Bullet seat: LYMAN 346 GR seated .500 (measured case top to bullet top.)
RCBS 396 GR seated .550
Lube: 50/50 melted mix of Thompson purple stuff and Thompson patch lube.

I hope this base line may help others starting from scratch. The trajectory pretty well matches the sights (at least with my gun). The muzzle velocity is right around 1400 feet per second plus or minus 20 fps per second and fouling is medium. I am still trying to figure out how you site at 300 meters.
Terry


I have more information on request, especially for assembly/disassembly of the rifle.
best regards
Rolf


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DarylS
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: Rolf]
      #213491 - 27/07/12 01:25 AM

Loads listed for the standard .45/70 Trapdoor should be able to be used in the .43 Mauser m71 with same weight bullets, due tothe Mauser's greater capacity.

To simiplify and use smokeless powders, I've come to use and like Hodgdon's H4895 Extreme. This powder gives exceptional results in reduced loads, whereas many other smokeless powders do not like to be reduced. H4895 can be reduced to as much as 50% and still give good results.

In the larger .450 Alaskan case, I used 45.0gr. H4895 with a 500gr. cast bullet and Remington 9 1/2 primer. The velocity is 1,530fps, which matches closely with the largest .45 calibre Sharps rounds used in the buffalo rifles. It is a VERY capable load. With a 490gr. lead bullet form a different mould, the same H4895 load produced 1,495fps. Both bullets were cast from WW and were of gas check design, with checks attached. Accuracy was decent (4" @ 100 meters) for the short barrel and iron sights. Did I mention my barrel was like a sewer pipe inside, untill I fired 40, polishing loads through it. It's still quite bad, but shines slightly in places. With either .43 Mauser or my light .450 Alaskan loads, it will do for any moose, elk, boar or bear for that matter.

Other loads I tried, were 35.5gr. IMR3031 with 420gr. RCBS cast GC bullet - 1,526fps and 50.0gr. H4895 with Lee 400gr. plain base for 1,640fps. No pressure signs whatsoever.

The .43 Mauser case is noted to have a 77gr. capacity, some 7 to 10gr. greater than the .45/70 actually has. Thus, with a similar weight bullet, the same load should produce lower pressure than the .45/70 produces, even with the slight size difference. (.010" only)

"Modern Loading" by Richard Lee contains loads for the .43 Spanish, which is quite similar to the .43 Mauser case in design and shape. He reduced .45/70 loads by 10% "for your safety".

These .43 Spanish loads are listed as maximum loads ie: reduced .45/70 data)


AA2495 - 44.9gr. - 378gr. lead - 1,547fps - 13,050CUP
AA4350 - 48.5gr. - 378gr. lead - 1,317fps - 13,860CUP
Re#7 - 31.4gr. - 385gr. lead - 1,334fps - 14,670CUP
AA2495 - 40.4gr. - 475gr. lead - 1,440fps - 14,400CUP


In Acurate Arms testing, even the original-type of Military factory .45/70 load laoding of 405gr. lead bullet over 70gr. of black powder, produced over 22,000PSI using today's GOEX powder. Thus, you can see what low pressures are being generated here, with the above loads, yet the ballistics are similar to original, or better - generally better & could be improved upon with judicious loading, as I did in my even larger case.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: Rolf]
      #213587 - 28/07/12 10:22 PM

Rolf, if you wish to be sure and iirc the proof house in München have a pressure test barrel for the 11,15x60R.
the only one I ever heard of.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: lancaster]
      #213593 - 29/07/12 01:20 AM

I've seen barrels and breeches where Pyrodex fouling has, over time and shooting, eaten a hole through 1/4" of steel. It seems to have an affinity for the iron molecules in the steel, sort of disolving them, when looked at under good magnification - sharp edged craters where the material is simply missing, as if disolved. I've been told by a chemical engineer, that after starting, the holes actually deepen from the firing pulse of sucessive shots.

This is my opinion, of course.

I'd use smokeless loads or real black powder, wihch cleans up easily & completely.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Paul
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: DarylS]
      #213633 - 29/07/12 01:29 PM

Interesting rifles, guys, reminding me more of Mannlichers than the later Mausers.

Daryl, is there any known reason why the 71/84 was superseded by a model with lower number (71/76)?

Rolf, in your reloading data, what do you mean by 'seated .500' and 'seated .550'? Are they the depths the bullet intrudes into the case?

Edited by Paul (29/07/12 01:32 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: Paul]
      #213653 - 30/07/12 02:26 AM

The 71/76 came out prior to the 71/84 of course. Did I say or imply otherwise - if so, sorry.

The original 71 and the 71/76 that I have both had .457" groove diameters - even though the bullet that was shot, was .446". The chamber will not allow a larger bullet to be chambered than the .446" diameter.

An undersized paper patched soft bullet, driven by black powder will expand to fill the grooves. Being unable to load a grooved, lubricated bullet is why I rechambed mine to a larger necked ctg. I wanted the .450 Alaksan Reamer for another job regardless and decided to re-chamber my Mauser rifle as well.

A simply neck throater would also have worked, thus leaving the original body of the chamber alone. That would have allowed me to use .43 Mauser brass but with the proper sized bullets. At the time I got my rifle, .43 Mauser brass was not available to me easily or cheaply enough, while .348 Winchester brass was. Now, even Starline makes that brass.

The later 71/84 had a .446" groove diameter, proper for the bullets cabable of being chambered in the case.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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John303
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: DarylS]
      #222685 - 01/01/13 01:14 PM

Bored and waiting for 12:01, 2013 - came across this. I can only add that a few? 71s and 71/84s were converted into shotguns called the Remo-Popular. I suppose if one could find a barrel etc. they could be retro-fitted back to a rifle.

I have a 71 R-P, 12 gau. in a take down, interesting gun. --- John


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DarylS
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: John303]
      #222711 - 02/01/13 06:15 AM

I have not removed my barrel so cannot comment on the threads, but I assume they are small-ring Mauser threads - ie: models 94/96.


I shoot my M71/76 with weak action .45/70-type loads using moderate powders, ie: H4895 and bullets to 500gr. I re-chambered it for the .450 Alaskan (due to it's .457" groove diameter) to enable me to obtain useable brass at that time.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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John303
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: DarylS]
      #222719 - 02/01/13 07:15 AM

Out of F. de Haas' book - 71/84, most Mausers are 12 TPI V threads, thread dia. varies -- 71/84 =.987 -- 88 Comission =.986 -- 89 Belgium =.995 -- 91 Arg. =.985 -- 93 to 96 =.980 -- 98 =1.10 -- 24 Yugo.=1.10 -- G33-40 =.980 -- 98 Siamese =.990.

Thread lengths vary but you can see which "other" barrels could be adapted. FWIW --- John


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DarylS
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Re: Mauser 71/84....Some information. [Re: John303]
      #222725 - 02/01/13 10:17 AM

Tks John303

If I was putting a new barrel on it, I might go for a faster twist .430", like 20" to 24" at the most, for use with the current run of handgun and .430 to .431" rifle bullets, cast and/or jacketed to 330gr.

The case could be a .444 case or even .43 Mauser brass (93gr. capacity). Of course, one would have to make up his own dies.

Ballistics would have to be kept fairly low, but even this early bolt action should allow speeds up to around 1,850fps with 330gr. bullets in the Mauser's original case. No flies on that. A fun gun for pigs or stags. The 265gr. Hornady SP meant for the .444 Marlin is a really good heavy ungulate bullet- smashes moose when driven to around 2,000fps. That speed should be easily accomplished at under 28,000psi in the larger case of the .43 Mauser. HA! It would truly be a .43 Mauser if chambered up in a .430" or .431" groove diameter barrel.

On the safty side of things, a factory .43 Mauser load would not, should not chamber.


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