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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive

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lancaster
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"Mannlicher Schönauer"
      #225887 - 24/02/13 05:45 PM

for sale in Denmark at Lauritz now

a ,ähm,something it must be
6,5x55 caliber, never see this scope mount before
not a mannlicher schönauer it must be one of the Suhl made specials. the barrel and the iron sights dont look vintage to me and the rifle is probably rebarreled sometimes after WW 2.














http://www.lauritz.com/da/auktion/jagtri...898861EndTagRU#

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (04/06/13 09:53 PM)


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Igorrock
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Re: "Mannlicher Schönauer" [Re: lancaster]
      #225889 - 24/02/13 07:11 PM

Yes, I noticed the same rifle. Interesting one but maybe needs some alterations...

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kuduae
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Re: "Mannlicher Schönauer" [Re: Igorrock]
      #225896 - 24/02/13 09:21 PM

This rifle started as a Haenel Modell 1909, grade RG 32 or 33. Later rebarreled and fitted with new open sights.

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lancaster
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Re: "Mannlicher Schönauer" [Re: Igorrock]
      #225905 - 24/02/13 11:50 PM

Quote:

Yes, I noticed the same rifle. Interesting one but maybe needs some alterations...




yes, would be some work to make it nice again

kuduae , are you familiar with this scope mount? I never notice before that the M 1909 had a push piece on the left side to open the magazine cover thats what it looks to me.
is this a common feature for this rifle?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: "Mannlicher Schönauer" [Re: lancaster]
      #225908 - 25/02/13 01:20 AM

Never seen such a scope mount before too.
Yes, the sideways pushbutton floorplate release is one of the features that distinguish the Haenel M 1909 from the Haenel M 1900. The others: Receiver "bridge" octagonal instead of round. One-piece ejector/bolt-stop housing. Guide rib on bolt in front of handle. All features visible in the photos above.

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Igorrock
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Re: "Mannlicher Schönauer" [Re: kuduae]
      #225914 - 25/02/13 03:41 AM

Here is one good discussion about those Haenel models:

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/reply/199571#.USpB9DdNHag

This one looks to be in good original condition:



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Edited by CptCurl (04/06/13 09:54 PM)


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kuduae
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Re: "Mannlicher Schönauer" [Re: Igorrock]
      #225937 - 25/02/13 09:24 AM

Quote:

Here is one good discussion about those Haenel models



Well, that "Vlad" got all he knows about his Haenel M1909 from yours tuly....
IMHO just another of the very rare Haenel rifles, but a good discussion????

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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lancaster
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Re: "Mannlicher Schönauer" [Re: kuduae]
      #225948 - 25/02/13 05:43 PM

Ehre wem Ehre gebührt Kuduae
Honour to whom honour is due

do you ever come to a clue how many of the M1900 und M 1909 were made? think someone have ask before in Suhl if they have old paper's from C.G. Haenel in the archive.
what I think is amazing is that Haenel made still the M 88 while having the M 1900 like this 7x57 carbine for mexico in 1907. technical it was outdated also by the own M 1900 so one would think it was clear which action to build in future.




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (04/06/13 09:55 PM)


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Igorrock
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Re: "Mannlicher Schönauer" [Re: lancaster]
      #225957 - 25/02/13 09:30 PM

Quote:

IMHO just another of the very rare Haenel rifles, but a good discussion????


Ok, maybe my analyse of that discussion is little too optimistic but interesting fotos anyway.

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kuduae
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Re: "Mannlicher Schönauer" [Re: Igorrock]
      #225980 - 26/02/13 06:01 AM

Haenel offered rifles on M88 actions up to WW1. They were known and trusted and they were much less, 20%, less expensive than comparable plain grade rifles of the "new improved" patterns. As cost was a prime factor for South American and Asian buyers of military equpment. M88 Haenels simply were much cheaper than state of art Mausers. The Chinese continued to build their "Hanyang" military rifles, the actions plain copies of the old M88 comission rifle, at least up to WW2.

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kuduae
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Re: "Mannlicher Schönauer" [Re: kuduae]
      #225981 - 26/02/13 06:40 AM

In the 1890s the C.G.Haenel Company and V.Chr.Schilling in Suhl made cavalry and artillery carbines on the “M88 Commission Actions” for both the German army and for export. They also built semi-custom sporting rifles on these actions in many different grades and with countless options. In the 1890s they were state-of -the-art ultra modern hunting rifles for smokeless powder ammunition and jacketed bullets.
Due to their similarity to the Dutch M92 Mannlicher action and the Mannlicher stripper clip magazine which was popular with the British for building sporting rifles, these were usually called
"Mannlicher-Haenels" by the American importers. The M92 was developed by Steyr from the 88 action . Several parts are interchangeable among the M88, the M92, the Haenel and the Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles.
At the introduction of the Mauser 98 action the problems with the M88 action were widely published as the reason for tax payers’ money being spent on a new rifle after only being in service for ten years. The main complaints were the open-to-dirt protruding Mannlicher magazine which was useless without the charger clips, the lack of protection against gas blow-back in case of a ruptured primer or case, not rare at that time, and the fact that it was possible to fire a cartridge without the bolt head that was easily lost. As a result the "obsolete" M88 was no longer competitive in the commercial market
Haenel was suddenly without government orders through 1915, but had the manufacturing facilities for the obsolete M88 action that nobody except third world countries wanted any more. So they did their best to modernize the 88 action to make it competitive with the Mauser action: They added a gas shield-flange to the cocking piece, made it with a separate firing pin mounted in the bolt head and added a staggered column stripper clip fed magazine with their own patented lever cartridge follower. The Mauser patent for the familiar "W"-spring was still valid then, so Haenel could not use it. This they called their M1900 action. The alteration required a different receiver forging from the M88 one: the 88 is round bottomed, while the Haenel is flat underneath.
Distinguishing features of the M1900 are the M88 carbine type bolt without guide rib and flat handle, coarsely checkered underneath; round receiver bridge reinforced for the clip guides; a big magazine floorplate release catch mounted on floorplate that hooked over a cross pin and protruded into trigger guard, and a separate ejector housing added to the front of the bolt stop.
The Steyr factory at the same time did a similar thing when they combined Louis Schlegelmilch's basic M88 bolt with Schoenauer's rotary magazine to create the Mannlicher-Schoenauer.
Later, apparently influenced by the design of the Mannlicher-Schoenauer, Haenel further improved the action to their M1909 by adding a M-S type guide rib with a lightening cut to the bolt (on most rifles), changing the receiver bridge to a much slimmer looking octagonal cross section, replacing the clumsy floorplate release latch with a neat push button on the left side in front and above the trigger guard and by replacing the bolt stop/ejector housing with a very trim one piece unit.
Haenel most certainly hoped for some military contracts, but they did not materialize. Only Paraguay bought a small number of M1909 rifles in 7x57for their military academy. Haenel offered these improved sporting rifles to the commercial market in at least five grades from basic to luxury with many factory options like peep sights and engraving, apparently without much success. The start of WW I in 1914 brought an end to the production of these rifles.
Here are some comparison photos. On top is a high-grade M1900, a basic grade M1909 below.








--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by CptCurl (04/06/13 09:55 PM)


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1776
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Re: "Mannlicher Schönauer" [Re: kuduae]
      #225984 - 26/02/13 07:03 AM

Some more photos of Haenel rifles:
A highly engraved and reworked one, once belonging to a German prince

some are seen with Lyman peep sights, two types of peep sights were offered as factory options in the 1909 catalog.




Vladimere's:


--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by CptCurl (04/06/13 09:56 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: "Mannlicher Schönauer" [Re: kuduae]
      #226009 - 26/02/13 06:16 PM

thank you escpecially for the exellent pics also.
very interest point that the problems of the M 88 were published for selling the public the idea that the indroduction of the M 98 was realy necessary. the M 88 was the very best rifle worldwide in 1888 no doubt but in the next ten years a lot of things happen.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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