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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive

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vegard_dino
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Mannlicher Stutzen
      #132657 - 18/04/09 02:28 AM



Hi all

I need some one to help me.

When I look at the very nice Mannlicher Stutzen, or carabine as some call it.
I ask my self one question, yes the rifle is very nice, superb. But, why did they add wood all the way to end of the barrel?
I find it nice do not get me wrong, but why?

I am sure it was a meaning of it, back when it was done in the first time.

Hope some can help me

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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ozhunter
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: vegard_dino]
      #132688 - 18/04/09 01:26 PM

I'm not sure why, but I do know that they balance well.

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vegard_dino
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: ozhunter]
      #132697 - 18/04/09 04:38 PM



Yes, thats right.
Maybe that is why they was made with that style.
Very interesting style.

Thanks for your reply and helping me

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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Rolf
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: vegard_dino]
      #132816 - 20/04/09 06:33 AM

Hello Vegard,

I have aquired a 8x68S full stock rifle based on a Mauser 98 system.

The gundealer knows the last user and asked the same question!

The user said that the rifle was intended for hunting plains game in Namibia and he wanted to be pretty sure that the rifle suffered no damage to the barrel in case of rough handling, so he ordered a full stock for protection of the barrel.

The rifle shoots pretty good, so it worked...

best regards
Rolf


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vegard_dino
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: Rolf]
      #132821 - 20/04/09 07:33 AM



Hello Rolf

Oh, got it.

Well, thats a good idea.

When is it made? Got a photo?

Thanks for informing me

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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fuhrmann
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: vegard_dino]
      #133000 - 21/04/09 08:06 PM

I think the full or "Stutzen" stock is just a matter of style, going way back to muzzleloading times.
Today, I cannot see any practical purpose. In fact that long and slender forarm may bend or warp, thus influencing accuracy of the rifle.

Fuhrmann


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vegard_dino
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: fuhrmann]
      #133016 - 21/04/09 10:27 PM


Hi Fuhrmann

Thanks for the reply

Yes, that may be so, all the way back to the age of the muzzleloading.

Thanks for the info

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: vegard_dino]
      #133031 - 21/04/09 11:57 PM

They are often described as mountain rifles, but to me they would seem to be of most use for hochsitz/high seat/tree stand hunting. The short barrel would be useful when climbing in and out (funny, I've never seen one with those pulleys that you see on the US videos for pulling your bow/rifle up after you) and the wood under the barrel would protect it and make less noise if you accidentally bang the barrel against the stand. For that matter, they would be good in leopard blinds too....
Seems logical to me! Any thoughts?


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xausa
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #133036 - 22/04/09 12:51 AM

The term "Stutzen" or "carbine" has its origin in reference to a cavalry weapon. A full length stock would offer protection for a short weapon to be carried in a saddle scabbard, and a flat "butter knife" bolt handle would make it easier to insert it into one, both characteristics the Mannlicher Schoenauer shared with the Mauser type "M" carbine.

All the cavalry weapons of the period had full length stocks, as did the service rifles. A short foreend on a sporting stock fitted to a military rifle barrelled action made sense, when the full length barrel was retained, but would look ridiculous on an 18" barreled carbine. I submit that both of those factors were in play in determining the final shape of the sporting carbine.


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vegard_dino
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #133042 - 22/04/09 04:07 AM



Hi
Yes, I have heard the same thing. But, that may be so, thinking of it, the wood under the barrel will make less noise also in the mountain´s, climbing over rock´s and so.

And, yes, in a leopard blind, mm, just what you need.
It will "make" the gun from make so much noise, if/when hitting rock´s and other hard objects, so I guess it is not a bad idea.

Thanks for your reply

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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CarlsenHighway
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: vegard_dino]
      #152935 - 05/02/10 10:31 PM

These stocks were designed for alpine mountain hunting (Chamois/Gemson) for the amount of handling needed when climbing, also when using them as a walking stick up steep slopes, as was the shorter barrel; for ease of manouvering.
In truth, if you try hunting in the mountains where you actually have to do some climbing you will soon see why, they are practical. The idea that the mannlicher style stock was aesthetically pleasing probably only came long after the rifle itself become so popular I suspect. Mauser also made the same stock at the same time for the same reason.

(Out of interest, the German Alpine troops adopted a carbine with a 17 inch barrel, that also had a steel plate on one side of the stock - to protect the butt when the rifle was used as a climbing stick. I think it was a Brno G33/40)

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tophet1
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #152963 - 06/02/10 07:06 AM

Short barrel = heavy at the rear = unbalanced rifle. (you find this with a Ruger No.1S)
Add weight to front of the furniture = balanced rifle.


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Paul
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: tophet1]
      #153004 - 06/02/10 10:16 PM

Interesting thoughts. I almost met my maker once in the Southern Alps of NZ because of a longer barrel.

I was heading for camp along a hillside gametrail with my rifle slung, barrel up, when an unnoticed rock protuding from the slope above caught the 60cm barrel. As I fought the momentum of my stride to stop being cammed off the ledge into a stream below, a newspaper filler came to my mind's eye about an Aussie dead from falling off a mountain. Another false report, thank goodness.


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KurtC
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: Paul]
      #155726 - 08/03/10 02:07 AM

Militaries have been using full length stocks with metal tips since the advent of the shoulder arm. Barrels were expensive, wood was cheap.

When I first became enamored with Mannlicher-Schoenauers a few decades ago while in Germany, I looked into the history of the "stutzen." The first thing I found out is that the term is most often used in regards to support hose (stockings) Further research led me to believe that the first time the stock style was applied, as we know it today, was with the German M88 Cavalry carbines of circa 1890. An example is below, stolen from the mentioned website.



You can cleary see the lineage that led to Mannlicher-Schoenauer hunting carbines 10 years later. Of particular interest to me has been the stutzen rifles (hence my email address). These are 23.5" barrels with full length stocks. Both M-S and Brno made them for the cartridges they deemed to powerful for short barrels, with Brno it was the 7x64 and the 8x60S. With M-S it was mostly the 9.3x62. Below is an 1950 full stock rifle in 9.3x62, made in 1957. Below that is an NO in 9.3x62, made in 1959 (sorry for bad photo, I know longer have the rifle to take a better one).





This one is a Brno 22F rifle in 7x64, made in 1946.



Edited by CptCurl (15/03/10 10:06 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: KurtC]
      #155727 - 08/03/10 02:30 AM

Sockets
aus Wikipedia, der freien Enzyklopädie From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wechseln zu: Navigation , Suche Jump to: navigation, search

Stutzen steht für: Pipe stands for:

* Stutzen (Waffe) , ein kurzes Jagdgewehr Piece (weapon), a short shotgun
* Stutzen (Kleidung) , eine Strumpfart Socket (clothing), a stocking -
* ein kurzes Ansatzrohrstück a short piece of pipe approach

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John aka NitroX

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: NitroX]
      #155732 - 08/03/10 04:22 AM

This is what I published on the subject in Bulletin#35 of the German Gun Collectors Ass. www.germanguns.com some years ago:
"Regarding the article on "Mannlicher" stocks, you stepped into one of the many traps of the complicated German language: Unfortunately there are three very similar verbs (two of them even spelled and spoken the same) with different meanings:
1.) stützen or stuetzen (ü and ö are only short forms of ue and oe) = to support, to prop up. This is the one you tried to use to explain "Stutzen".
2.) stutzen = to hesitate, to become suspicious: obviously wrong.
3.) stutzen = to trim, to cut back, to shorten: This is the one to use! Since the 1700s The southern Germans and Austrians used Stutzen for any rifle shorter then a long infantry musket. (the Swiss in their slightly different dialect say Stutzer instead)
For instance the Stutzen M1768 for Austrian Grenzscharfschützen = frontier sharpshooters (the austro-hungarian "frontier" to the Turk empire was a broad military zone with a 300 year history of skirmishes, raids and guerilla warfare): You would possibly describe this as an "Jaeger"-type flintlock over-under, combination rifle.(one barrel rifled for accurate shooting, the other smooth for rapid reloading) Yes, it was military issue!
Another example:The military straight pull M95 Mannlicher came in three designations:
Gewehr M95: Long infantry rifle with 30" barrel
Karabiner M95: carbine for cavalry use with 20" barrel and sling attachment on the left side of the stock.
Stutzen M95: short rifle for special (mountain-, artilllery-) troops, 20" barrel, same length as carbine, but sling swivels on the bottom like the rifle.
So the Austrians were apt to call any rifle a Stutzen, even the 24" barreled, half stocked, 7x64 or 8x60 M1925 Mannlicher-Schoenauer is variously called the "Hochgeschwindigkeitsstutzen" or "Hochrasanzstutzen" in old catalogs.
Note also the expressions "Feuerstutzen" for a Schuetzen-style target rifle and "Zimmerstutzen" for an indoor target rifle.
In Germany proper, except the southernmost part neighboring Austria and Switzerland, the use of the word Stutzen or Stutzer for a rifle was totally unknown until after 1900! Instead, short rifles were called Karabiner and full stocks were circumscribed as stocked to the muzzle in contemporary catalogs.
When Steyr started selling their Mannlicher-Schoenauer sporting rifles in 1905, the short barreled, full stock, double set trigger versions became the most popular in continental Europe. (The British preferred the long barreled, single trigger, half stocked versions) As the Austrians called them "Stutzen" in their catalogs, only then this became a German household word for a full stocked, short rifle! So, the expression "Stutzen" for a full stocked short rifle is hardly older then your "Mannlicher stock"! (Well,at least over here "Mannlicher" is still a protected trade mark, while Stutzen is not!)
Another misconception about original Mannlicher-Schoenauer full stocks: The pre-WWII foreends were not designed to be rigid and warp-free! Instead, they are very thin and hollowed out to be a very flexible (and breakable without the support of the barrel) affairs that can put only marginal pressure on the barrel. They are held (not rigidly fastened!) to the barrel by 1. the barrel band and screw of the front sling swivel; 2. the steel nose cap. If you remove these, it is easy to pull away the foreend from the muzzle with one finger for at least one inch (don´overdo this, because it will break quite easily!) before the barrel starts to flex."

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Mannlicher Stutzen [Re: kuduae]
      #158112 - 02/04/10 09:02 PM

I suspect there is truth in a number of these observations, such as the wood adding balance to a short rifle and also perhaps protection (or the appearance of it), to a small barrel, (small by the standards of the day). Keep in mind that the 6,5x53 MS and later 6,5x54 MS were very early smokeless rifles and, being much smaller calibers than many of the 10mm, 11mm and etc., black powder equivalents of the previous era, they may have looked a little flimsy, so a little extra wood may have conferred a stronger appearance to sceptical buyers.

However, I would have thought that, if hunting chamois in the Alps that a very real possibility was that of fingers sticking to frozen steel, so the wood acted as protection when the rifle was held near the muzzle end for any reason.

The extra wood does create problems with point of impact. For instance, European full length rifles tend to be slim but copies of them made elsewhere tend to be less so. So if the wood warps, it can influence the barrel. A partial (?) way of solving this problem was to make the full-stock extension a separate piece of wood that had a subtle join of some kind in the middle. Another consideration was the stirrup mount for the front of the sling. Some of these attached through to the barrel as well as the stock and this could create problems, or at least, so the advertisers offering alternatives suggested.

I suspect another reason for their popularity is simply that they looked European and this appealed to buyers. There are even 2 and 3 barreled guns for sale in Germany with full stocks ! The fact that Mauser made a copy of the Mannlicher Stutzen suggests that it had a faithful following.

Re the leopard blind; I was looking at a Sauer Model 90 in 9,3x62 with a large objective scope and an illuminated reticle. Being a Stutzen, it was quite a bit shorter in the barrel than my .375H&H of the same model. It seemed ideal to me. However, the extra muzzle flash might make it harder (or perhaps easier), for the PH to determine if a good hit was made. Short barrels also tend to be noisier, all else being equal.


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