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Waidmannsheil
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Loc: Melbourne Australia
425 WR Double Rifle
      #379574 - 23/09/23 01:19 PM

For all the nay sayers who said that the 425 WR doesn't work in a double rifle, here is proof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcVjQqs3fz4


Certainly not my first choice but proof that it exists and works.



Here is a good video showing exactly how the ejector works on a rebated rim and still allows for powerful ejection, very clever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAMUpxLbSzk



And some more

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE40-Rg7k88




Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

Edited by Waidmannsheil (23/09/23 01:30 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #379596 - 25/09/23 03:55 AM

by the technical point of view its great but honestly 450/400 ammo was available then everywhere and I say this being a fan of obsolete cartridges. I don't know about the .425 WR, the shop the owner got this double then back in the days probably had the ammo on stock.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #379598 - 25/09/23 04:10 AM

Much the same method of extraction was used in some rimless chamberings in Martini Cadets. The difference being the extractor was smaller and spring loaded.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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grandveneur
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #379613 - 26/09/23 01:05 AM

To be honest, I don't see the advantage of having a DR caliber 425WR when there were other cartridges at that time that were much more suitable for this type of weapon.

The cartridge 425WR was a compromise in design to fit it into a Mauser 98 action, like some other cartridges of the time. The rebated rim of this cartridges can even cause problems when reloading, what is not ideal by Big Game hunting. Apart from the technical performance, I cannot understand the effort to adapt such cartridges to a DR breech action.

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szihn
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: grandveneur]
      #379615 - 26/09/23 01:23 AM

In custom gunsmithing we have a saying:
Anything can be done--------- if time and price are no object.

So obviously the 425 WR can be made to work in a double. That video is proof.
But the question I have is simply:
Why would you want to?

The 450/400 or 4540 Nitro are already made for doubles. I have nothing bad to say about the performance of the 425WR, but in no way can I say bad things about the 450/400 OR THE 450 NE either.

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grandveneur
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: szihn]
      #379616 - 26/09/23 01:25 AM

I meant that too.

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DarylS
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: grandveneur]
      #379619 - 26/09/23 01:56 AM

grandveneur - interesting statement on loading rebated rim ctgs.
I designed, made and loaded for one myself, a .458 on a .450 Alaskan case, with rebated rim. It was no different loading than any other ctg. I load for and that is quite a few.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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grandveneur
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #379621 - 26/09/23 03:15 AM

It's not that easy. It's mainly about the cartridges 11,2x72 Schüler and 12,7x70 Schüler by quick reloading of the rifle. I used both for Big Game hunting. The cartridge 11,2x72 Schüler is extreme because the cartridge is wide compared to their rim. At times a cartridge jammed. The cartridge 12,7x70 Schüler is easier to reload, but there were still problems with reloading. I shot an elephant with two shots made quickly one after the other and did not notice that a cartridge was between ejected from the magazine. The trackers gave the unfired cartridge back to me.

It's nothing new, everything is known and that's why the cartridge 425WR was held in the magazine of the original rifles with clamps.

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lancaster
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: grandveneur]
      #379628 - 26/09/23 04:31 AM

I know what Grandveneur means, when you load the next round from a double row magazin the cartridge move in 3 dimensions. on the way into the chamber there is one moment when the cartridge with a rebated rim can slip under the bold head. the feeding can be made trouble free but it needs alot of experience and the time, maybe similar to making a double rifle.
feeding from a single stack magazine is no problem at all like the .50 Beowulf in a M 16 magazine.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Oxfz7orosiI

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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grandveneur
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #379629 - 26/09/23 04:35 AM

Thanks for the explanation, that's what I meant.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #379632 - 26/09/23 07:13 AM

Daryl, most double rifles that are chambered for a rimless cartridge use a small spring loaded extractor blade within the main extractor leg. The difference here is the very large surface area of the extractor blade and the fact that it is mechanically raised after the cartridge is in the chamber when the action is closed. Then when opened and extracting the the taper on the case head behind the rim easily moves the extractor blade downwards to allow the case to fly out unhindered, with no resistance of trying to push against a spring.

Matt.

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There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #379633 - 26/09/23 07:27 AM

Lars, one of the problems with big bore bolt action rifles regardless of the type of rim is the large diameter cases, particularly the 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs. Unless the left action wall is machined to allow the case to roll further under the rail then that exact scenario will happen all the time. When I got my 505 which was supposed to be ready for use it would do exactly that. If I loaded three rounds in the magazine, fed and fired the first one and then rapidly retracted the bolt the second round would fly out of the magazine at the same time as the ejected round that had been fired. I spoke to Wayne from AHR in the US who has built many CZ550's for big cartridges and he told me it was a common problem and the trick is to machine the action wall on the left side with a ball nose cutter to allow more of the case to roll under the rail. I did this and it solved the problem.

Added to this was the magazine spring which on the 505 are 0.020" thick which is to strong and wants to push the cartridge out. The trick is to replace it with a 0.016" spring which is used on most other models and it totally solved the problem.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #379643 - 26/09/23 04:55 PM

Quote:

For all the nay sayers who said that the 425 WR doesn't work in a double rifle, here is proof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcVjQqs3fz4


Certainly not my first choice but proof that it exists and works.




Interesting, unusual, exotic and a very nice rifle. But little practical purpose. Maybe some rajah had a bolt action in the .425 WR and wanted a double in the same. Or was a WR devotee.

As said the .450/400 rimmed cartridges existed. Nowadays the .500/416 NE and .416 Rigby NO.2 exist, both rimmed.

There is a reason why rimmed cartridges are recommended over rimless cartridges and a rebated rim seems to double those issues. Complexity increases the chances of failure.

Nice rifle though and a collector's piece.

***

I like the idea of using clay targets at shorter ranges, say to 50 yards or 65, 75 yards. If one can hit them with either barrel from a field position, or a field rest, sticks etc, both the regulation, accuracy and also shooting skills are well adequate. Dinner plate at 100 yards again from a field position or field rest.

A dinner plate at 100 yards allows shots at big game, and also medium game, to that range. 150 or 200 yards would be better of course.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (26/09/23 07:24 PM)

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prairie_ghost
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Reged: 19/07/08
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #379651 - 26/09/23 08:18 PM

If you look at the video starting @ 4:50 when he first opens the action you will see a cartridge in the left chamber that fails to pick up by the extractor. Hmmmmm......

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grandveneur
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: prairie_ghost]
      #379652 - 26/09/23 09:55 PM

Well observed !

As @NitroX wrote, complexity increases the chances of failure. I would not have any trust in such weapons either. These are all weapons for people who have a whole staff around and who will protect them if something goes wrong. If you are standing alone, you think much more practically when it comes to weapons and ammunition.

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DarylS
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: grandveneur]
      #379653 - 27/09/23 01:47 AM

I understand my misunderstanding - sorry for my confusion at what was written.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #379673 - 27/09/23 12:04 PM

Here is my opinion to add to the above:
To me there is no surprise as to the .425 WR cartridge. That proprietary cartridges were the norm in that era, Westley Richards would naturally have undertaken development of a rimless cartridge to compete with the slightly earlier .404 Jeffery. Their client base would have demanded it.
As to the rebated rim? There was a certain fascination with fast stripper clip reloads, as well as saving having to do bolt face alteration.

I have never read or heard of a failure to feed or extract in an "original" Westley Richards quality sporting rifle, whether magazine or double rifle. Likely the same cannot be said for lesser quality rifles destined for game departments, or eventually chambered by other makers.

A properly set up rifle will be as reliable in this cartridge as any other "if" the maker takes the time to get it right.
In the old days (and to this day) Westley Richards took the time to get it right.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: 3DogMike]
      #379676 - 27/09/23 03:49 PM

I don't believe there were many to succeed or fail.

As for reliability and choices, people make their own choices. Magnum belted cartridges or rimless in double rifles. No ideal as rimmed but a choice.

I've a non controlled feed Mauser M03 in .404. Admittedly not used much yet. But by popular wisdom only a controlled feed rifle is a DGR. I'll see with time.

People make their own choices and live with them.


I do find a .425 WR cartridge DR a little silly. Interesting but silly. But say having a DR and magazine rifle in the same cartridge can make sense.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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thirdbite
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #379723 - 29/09/23 01:18 PM

Nice looking one here:
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=102073008

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9.3x57
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: thirdbite]
      #379741 - 30/09/23 11:13 AM

Very interesting.

BTW:

What is that guy's accent???

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: 9.3x57]
      #379744 - 30/09/23 02:21 PM

Quote:

Very interesting.

BTW:

What is that guy's accent???



First YouTube link, is white South African, with some American hints.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: thirdbite]
      #379779 - 01/10/23 08:00 PM

Certainly a nice looking gun but I think the price might be a bit fancy full.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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HeymSR20
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Re: 425 WR Double Rifle [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #379914 - 09/10/23 04:28 AM

Thanks for posting. I always wondered how those rimless double extractors worked. Very simple once you have seen them!

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