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LGF
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Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles
      #371982 - 03/12/22 03:07 PM

With Woodleighs unavailable, I am looking for bullets which are safe to fire in a hundred-year old Evans .470. A friend blew up the barrel of his old .470 when he shot a modern monometal solid at a buffalo. Is there any reason to be wary of Swift A Frames?

Thanks.

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tinker
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: LGF]
      #371983 - 03/12/22 03:37 PM

The partition / bulkhead portion of the Swift A-Frame bullet is believed by many to have the same potential for ill-effect in double rifle assemblies as the mono solids

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: tinker]
      #371988 - 03/12/22 07:15 PM

I would be wary of using any normal mono bullet or a partition style bullet in any double particularly older ones. The A or H design of the solid jacket in the middle of the bullet might cause problems.

Monometal bullets with driving bands are an exception.

Woodleigh Hydrostatic bullets have driving bands and should still be available. They were made by someone else and assuming this was still the case should not have been affected. A lot more expensive but an option

--------------------
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...
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LGF
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #372010 - 04/12/22 09:11 AM

Thanks, gentlemen, I'm glad I asked.

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Rule303
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #372014 - 04/12/22 06:31 PM

Quote:

I would be wary of using any normal mono bullet or a partition style bullet in any double particularly older ones. The A or H design of the solid jacket in the middle of the bullet might cause problems.

Monometal bullets with driving bands are an exception.

Woodleigh Hydrostatic bullets have driving bands and should still be available. They were made by someone else and assuming this was still the case should not have been affected. A lot more expensive but an option



Yes, the Hydros are a bore rider so, as John said have driving bands, not groves cut into the shank.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: Rule303]
      #372021 - 04/12/22 07:23 PM

While on the subject

Factory Fire Rebuild Update

We have rebuilt our factory, and are well into the process of rebuilding our production machinery.

Our aim is to start production of new product by end of 2022, though it will be some time before we get our full range back into stock.

Thank you again for your messages of support, and physical help from some amazing true blue Aussies

Regards,
Geoff & Shirley McDonald.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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luv2safari
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #374049 - 12/02/23 03:51 PM

Quote:

I would be wary of using any normal mono bullet or a partition style bullet in any double particularly older ones. The A or H design of the solid jacket in the middle of the bullet might cause problems.

Monometal bullets with driving bands are an exception.

Woodleigh Hydrostatic bullets have driving bands and should still be available. They were made by someone else and assuming this was still the case should not have been affected. A lot more expensive but an option



I just found these:

Have you seen any in OZ yet? It looks like this small company is targeting a niche market, and many of us comprise that niche. Check out their selection.

https://www.foxbullets.eu/fox-classic-hunter/bullet-318-150gr/

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: luv2safari]
      #374050 - 12/02/23 04:53 PM

Quote:


I just found these:

Have you seen any in OZ yet? It looks like this small company is targeting a niche market, and many of us comprise that niche. Check out their selection.

https://www.foxbullets.eu/fox-classic-hunter/bullet-318-150gr/



They grooved bullets, not raised driving bands.

Made in Slovenia?

Maybe 93mouse has used them?

I wonder how they perform on game?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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HeymSR20
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #374062 - 12/02/23 09:39 PM

Over here in Edinburgh, Edinburgh Rifles imports the Fox Bullets and the South African Peregrine bullets. I know them well and done some load development as they load factory ammunition with both these bullet ranges. These have been sent to proof house and are now being supplied in good volumes major government, and conservation agencies as well private estates and retail.

The Fox works well and has multiple groves cut into it, so does keep pressures low. The Peregrine is built slight sub calibre bullet with driving bands to grip the rifling. And they have a range - the VRG3 designed for dangerous game calibres.

Personally I would be happy shooting Fox bullets out of an old rifle, but I would prefer to use the Peregrines.

More details, and load data etc available here with links back to manufacturers websites.

http://new.ersg.com/non-lead-bullets-and-ammunition

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HeymSR20
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: HeymSR20]
      #374065 - 13/02/23 12:09 AM

Just following on from previous post, with both the Fox and Peregrines we have recovered a few in water traps. The rifling is only in the driving bands, and not in the body of the bullet, so the actual contact area with the barrel is less than with a traditional bullet. This results in lower pressures required to get traditional velocities, or if using traditional pressures we are getting higher velocities.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: HeymSR20]
      #374071 - 13/02/23 02:42 AM

Quote:

Just following on from previous post, with both the Fox and Peregrines we have recovered a few in water traps. The rifling is only in the driving bands, and not in the body of the bullet, so the actual contact area with the barrel is less than with a traditional bullet. This results in lower pressures required to get traditional velocities, or if using traditional pressures we are getting higher velocities.



I'm not an expert but I don't think the problem of monometals is pressure. It's whether the give in the projectile is adequate. Grooves only don't cut it in my opinion. Not for me anyway.

--------------------
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...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DarylS
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #374080 - 13/02/23 06:25 AM

The ability or rather inability to be compressed/cut by the rifling lands is the problem.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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luv2safari
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #374083 - 13/02/23 09:28 AM

I believe the Fox .318 150gr was designed to shoot in combination guns. Their barrels are far thinner than those in double rifles.

I am trying to contact Fox for some answers, but it's pretty much moot. We have as yet no importer.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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DarylS
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: luv2safari]
      #374084 - 13/02/23 09:42 AM

I've a friend with an overunder of German made, Merkel I think, that has a 16 bore over a 7x65R. He is using the 160gr. TSX in the 7mm and getting sub inch for 3 shots at 100 meters(109yards). NP. The rifle barrel is very thin walled.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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luv2safari
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #374086 - 13/02/23 10:27 AM

Thanks, Daryl. That's good to know. I am driving to Las Vegas this Friday to pick up a sturdy Fortuna drilling in 16/70mm and 7X57R. That should be a good candidate to try out the TSX bullet. If all goes well I'll try them in my circa 1996 Kreighoff 16 & 7X65R drilling.

Could you get his load data??

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

Edited by luv2safari (13/02/23 10:27 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: luv2safari]
      #374090 - 13/02/23 02:15 PM

Seems to me, he was running them close to or just over 2,750fps. If you are going to try them, just be aware, you need to seat them a bit deeper, as in .030" to .050" off the lands to start with & start at the bottom for loads. Just read something in the new Hodgdon's Annual Manual to also use primers that are lead based as these help against copper fouling, as well as the CFE ball powders, if available. This was concerning ALL of the monolithic bullets, not just Barnes, but Noslers, Winchesters, Hornady, etc.
The article in that manual noted that none gave more or less fouling than the others and they all seemed to develop the same breech pressures as well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #374091 - 13/02/23 03:31 PM

When visiting Verney-Carron they informed me on my question that monos are fine in their double rifles.

So IMO one should be more careful in older firearms than newer, drs and combinations. Myself I will avoid them irrespectively. Monos and H or A thick jacketed bullets. Woodleigh a advised once about limiting the use of their thick jacketed FMJs.

I will avoid monos, H & A jacketed bullets unless forced to by lack of other suitable bullets or Stalinist environmental laws ...

I will happily try the Woodleigh Hydros with RAISED driving bands. Or other similar choices. I will give the hydros a go anyway. See how they shoot and regulate. Cost way too much however.

One thing. Some people say "I shoot them all without any problems!" We checked out such a dr one time. Visible effects on the outside of the barrel per the NE member examining the DR.

Each and all to their own.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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3DogMike
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #374098 - 14/02/23 01:33 AM

I adhere to the notion that modern mono/partition bullets are simply a bad & risky idea in vintage DR or Combo guns/rifles*.
As John mentions, the mono/partition with raised driving bands maybe not so risky…..but unless forced to comply with the totalitarian “green” diktats, why do it.

Fortunately my vintage rifles (mostly Black Powder Express) are quite happy with cast lead bullets and where I live thus far lead is still permissible, available, and at common DR distances perform just fine. For me then, bullet availability is not an issue. (Not chasing dangerous game)
I feel for the guys with vintage/antique arms that live/hunt in places that insanely require non-lead bullets.
- Mike

ADDED -
Another thought: Being that the this thread was a question by “LGF” as to the suitability of mono/partition in his vintage .470 double rifle I am guessing that not only is there a risk to his barrels, but due to weight/length/internal ballistics issues may arise in simply finding a load using a banded mono or partition that will regulate suitably?
That is what is/was so nice about the Woodleigh bullets, they fairly duplicated the originals by Kynoch.

NOT knocking Swift or any other similar bullet, they are simply great in suitable rifles.

* Note, I am not entirely an unreformed double rifle Luddite as I do have a Nitro .470 as well as a Nitro .500/.450

--------------------
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Rule303
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: HeymSR20]
      #374113 - 15/02/23 12:19 AM

Quote:

Over here in Edinburgh, Edinburgh Rifles imports the Fox Bullets and the South African Peregrine bullets. I know them well and done some load development as they load factory ammunition with both these bullet ranges. These have been sent to proof house and are now being supplied in good volumes major government, and conservation agencies as well private estates and retail.

The Fox works well and has multiple groves cut into it, so does keep pressures low. The Peregrine is built slight sub calibre bullet with driving bands to grip the rifling. And they have a range - the VRG3 designed for dangerous game calibres.

Personally I would be happy shooting Fox bullets out of an old rifle, but I would prefer to use the Peregrines.

More details, and load data etc available here with links back to manufacturers websites.

http://new.ersg.com/non-lead-bullets-and-ammunition



OK so the Peregrine are Bore Riders like the Hydros. Bore Rider = The diameter of the bullet is that of the lands or very close to. The raised section/driving bands are grove or close to grove diameter. The Barnes are grove diameter with groves cut into them. So the Hydros can be seated with the front section of the bullet sitting in the rifling and the first band just off. Barnes type only the ogive can do this. Theoretically the Barnes type will produce a higher pressure?

Does this mean that bore riders can be used in thin barrels or doubles or older guns? I do not know but would expect they could be.

The designer/developer of the Hydro claims he tested many grades on copper/zinc alloy to find one that was not too hard or soft and produce pressures similar to soft nose bullets. Got that from the Woodleigh reloading manual.

Now my observations and thinking. I have load developed for 300 grain 375 H&H and 400 grain 416 Rigby. I will discount the 375 loads as I had to use a different powder to the cup & core type bullets. In the Rigby using the same powder loads I get 100FPS faster with the Hydros then 400 and 410 grain soft nose. No detectable increase in felt recoil, subjective and not precise I know.

What I put the extra velocity down to is lower pressure due to lower friction allowing a faster Excelleration. Yes plenty of holes in this logic, however when I use Woodleigh 410 grain solids- these are slightly undersize, and same powder load I can detect a difference in the felt recoil. I might add these loads are not far off my recoil tolerance. This maybe why I can pick the difference as a little increase becomes noticeable.

People may or may not agree with me and that is fine as this is an extremely narrow sample.

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DarylS
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Re: Swift A Frame Bullets for old rifles [Re: Rule303]
      #374122 - 15/02/23 05:02 AM

The Hydros were not tested by Hodgdon for their article. They did say there was not a lot of difference between the pressures generated by the bullets they used.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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