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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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Demonwolf444
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Reged: 05/08/16
Posts: 5
Loc: Yorkshire UK
H&H double rifle story - Impossible parts search.
      #361281 - 29/01/22 07:57 PM

I've come into ownership of a Holland and holland 450 express double rifle.

Its a cool and interesting piece, its in an honest aged condition, everything still being good an tight but the case colours have gone and the metal work is a nice gun metal grey. The edges and corners are still nice and crisp. Its completely un adorned with no engraving other than Holland and holland and the load and charge information engraved on the side of the action. Barrels are in good order engraved on the tubes holland and holland on one tube and "winners of the field rifle trials ", the bores near mint, the express sights for 3 different ranges with their thin platinum lines and the safety fitted with a bolted safety. In short the guns a piece of prosaic utilitarian beauty, its the sort of article I imagine was procured by someone who took their sport very seriously, the guns had use no doubt about it, but its also been well cared for. When I level the piece in front of me I can well imagine this old reliable sending forth a bullet as accurately into my dangerous game now as ever it did so perhaps on the plains of africa or sweaty jungles the world unknown.

Ive written to holland and holland and they do have the history put together on the piece which I will shortly handing over £70... it seems a lot of money to hand over for a bit of information, but if its origins are as strange as how it came into my ownership then it could be a worth knowing.

There is one piece of this story missing; I work as a gunsmith in northern England, and this gun was first brought to me about four years ago. Mr T we shall call him came to the workshop, he had a broken stock on his shotgun and could I look at repairing it. I quite like repair work as each poses a unique challenge. He withdrew from a slip an over under browning shotgun with a cracked stock. A little too quickly I said "no, cant be done" it came out like a cough. The truth is id been called to a gunshop about three months earlier and looked over the same gun; I told Mr T so and he said it was quite impossible as he was living in America at that point and he has left his gun with his brother who assured him that it had happened just the week before he returned from America; that one day he opened his gun safe and simple found it to be broken. The story I had heard three months ago was that it had been ran over with a quad bike. It was quite clear to me that Mr T trusted his brother implicitly and thought that I had surely got two similar looking guns mixed up. It seemed a wasted meeting until

" have something else you can look at for me.." and out came the double rifle described above. The description above doesn't reveal the other side of the story. While the gun is exactly as I describe its got a few parts missing. The stock, the forend, the forend iron, the right hand lockwork in its entirety and the left hand mainspring... other than those losses its exactly as described. I quoted him for the nearly endless amounts of work restoring and re manufacturing all the missing articles and he left saying he just couldn't justify the expense. He always maintained it was something interesting as Holland and Holland had refunded fee and request for information.

He had found it in a pile of guns and parts of guns at a gun show in America, at some point he must have brought it back to England with him, and over the next couple of years he would call in at the workshop for a chat and ask me quarterly if I had thought about the Holland any more, as though a bit of thought would some how abridge the work and bring the missing parts to life on a shoe string budget. years passed, covid came and went and came and went, and eventually he told me it was to sell, that he needed the money to get back to America and it turned up at the workshop again along with all sorts of tools and bits and pieces he had picked up over the years. I think its fair to say I grossly overpaid.

With its travels between America and England, while i can easily believe that the original stock was maybe broken, or replaced by some jungle craftsmanship and subsequently thrown away, the lock work and the forend bugs me, for one thing with no mainsprings in the gun what so ever its quite hard to envisage how it should be made. For another thing making a new forend and lock work might not be so difficult but even when its achieved it will never be the "original". it seems likely that someone somewhere has in a drawer somewhere that little plate that says "Holland and holland". But it seems even more likely that these parts will never be found. If your reading this is England or America and have an old shoe box or biscuit tin with a Holland and Holland lock and or forend iron floating around in it then id like to hear from you. I'm not expecting my inbox to be full any time soon.

Perhaps ill update this post when I have heard from Hollands about its original owner and sale.
The first part of the rebuild will begin with the forend iron.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39188
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: H&H double rifle story - Impossible parts search. [Re: Demonwolf444]
      #361284 - 29/01/22 08:17 PM

Question. Did you repair the Browning shotgun stock?

Can't help with the parts. I'd say impossible to find them all. If it was my rifle I'd find a good bespoke double rifle maker and see if new replacement parts can be recreated from scratch. If a maker can build one from nothing, surely replacement parts can be remade. For a price!

Good luck.

Can H&H redo it? Then still original! For an ungodly price no doubt.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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260rem
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Reged: 16/04/06
Posts: 757
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: H&H double rifle story - Impossible parts search. [Re: NitroX]
      #361287 - 29/01/22 09:57 PM

Nothing worse then trying to fix something with key components missing, original parts no hope in hell, new parts refurbished by Holland and Holland probably doable but God that's going to cost a small fortune.
Best bet is try and have built or build the new parts yourself, it won't be original but it might not matter if you intend to hunt with it.


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Rockdoc
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Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 1212
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Re: H&H double rifle story - Impossible parts search. [Re: 260rem]
      #361292 - 29/01/22 11:16 PM

Hollands doing anything will be a large fortune.

70 quid for the history is extortion, last one I received , maybe 2014 or 2015 was either 25 or 30 pounds.

I wish you well with your quest


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Monsai52
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Reged: 23/01/20
Posts: 18
Loc: California
Re: H&H double rifle story - Impossible parts search. [Re: Rockdoc]
      #361303 - 30/01/22 04:27 AM

Good luck on your parts search. I agree with the others that fining the "original" parts will be virtually impossible, but I would think that with some (possibly considerable) effort you should be able to find someone with a stash of old H&H lock parts to use as a starting point for the restoration.

70 Pounds doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me. it's $100.00 to get a factory letter on a Colt Single Action, and the only information you get is the original configuration of the gun (bbl. length, caliber, finish), shipping date and shipping destination. If the gun was factory engraved, or has some historic connection the price can go to $300.00 or more.

Best regards,

--------------------
My opinion is free and worth every penny of it


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JTOMLINSON
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Reged: 16/02/05
Posts: 188
Loc: York, England
Re: H&H double rifle story - Impossible parts search. [Re: Demonwolf444]
      #361342 - 30/01/22 08:06 PM

Hi Demonwolf

Where are you in Yorkshire?

Also what vintage is your rifle. Many early Holland rifles used Joseph Brazier of Ashes locks so sourcing main spring forgings should not be a problem, although it would have been helpful to have one original from which the new one would be copied.

Further, and possibly of a rifle of the vintage you are dealing with, the action and fore end would have been made from forgings, at the period in time quite possibly by Phillipsons, finding one today may be purely down to luck I am afraid and quite likely will end up with you having to machine one from barstock.

I had a build project a number of years ago for a large double and, at that time I was able to source some part machined parts in the white from a then contact I had at their Harrow Road factory which took a lot of machine work out of the process at our end as these were in final form having been EDM wire eroded. I am not sure whether this would remain an option given the company is now under new ownership, even then the prices for parts were not cheap. But given no one else offered them, the costs were justified, if you could obtain from them a forend iron in the white you may be able to work back from that.

Not sure this helps.

Regards

Jonathan


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Rockdoc
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Reged: 07/12/06
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Re: H&H double rifle story - Impossible parts search. [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #361343 - 30/01/22 08:17 PM

Monsai52 it is just a copy of the order/ day book, simple photocopy. Maybe it just seems to me to have increased significantly in price over a short time. Then again, given the rifles and guns we are discussing, it is peanuts I suppose!

Jonathan how expensive is it to complete a forend iron with ejectors for an early (1906) Royal double rifle? PM if you like and if this is something that you do?

Cheers, Chris

Edited by Rockdoc (30/01/22 08:19 PM)


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JTOMLINSON
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Reged: 16/02/05
Posts: 188
Loc: York, England
Re: H&H double rifle story - Impossible parts search. [Re: Rockdoc]
      #361345 - 30/01/22 08:42 PM

Hi Chris

I do not do the work personally although I was for many years a military weapons engineer having trained as a toolmaker with the Army.

A gunmaker friend of mine Trevor Proctor, then of Wilmslow, Cheshire, but now retired did the work. It would be difficult to price the work here in the UK as we have various rates for the work. the London trade is, and always was, expensive . There are still jobbing gunsmiths in Birmingham and also a lot of freelance outworkers who have branched out on their own, usually from the big London names. Mark Sullivan is, or was, one such actioner but there are others based from the Midlands down to the South Coast.

The problem with a forend is that apart from the ‘iron itself’ which must fit the action knuckles of the particular rifle, you have the ejector work, the pipe for locking to the loop and the release be that a Deeley type latch or, as with more modern Holland’s, the Anson pushrod, although some early Holland’s for example had the lever catch.

In the UK at present just a simple replacement of the forend wood for an old rifle would at London rates be in the £1000’s of pounds , a complete replacement forend, if say by Holland’s, would, and this is a pure guess at present, see little to no change from £ 5,000 and quite possibly upwards of this. Machined parts only get you so far in gunmaking as you know, once machined, they have to be fitted and then ejectors timed and regulated, all costs money I am afraid. I do not know Holland’s current hourly rate on their timesheets but from last dealings now over 10 years ago it was then over £150 per hour, this is not what the craftsmen get, but rather what the company then charged for their time per job.


Regards

Jonathan


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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: H&H double rifle story - Impossible parts search. [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #361354 - 31/01/22 05:36 AM

Quote:

Hi Chris

I do not know Holland’s current hourly rate on their timesheets but from last dealings now over 10 years ago it was then over £150 per hour, this is not what the craftsmen get, but rather what the company then charged for their time per job.


Regards

Jonathan




It’s like driving your car to an Audi shop. Here they charge you £200 for checking tirepressure. The mechanics are clean and wear white gloves. Dirty work are oursource and then added a triple charged to the customer.

Edited by rigbymauser (31/01/22 05:45 AM)


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Demonwolf444
.224 member


Reged: 05/08/16
Posts: 5
Loc: Yorkshire UK
Re: H&H double rifle story - Impossible parts search. [Re: rigbymauser]
      #361480 - 03/02/22 11:30 PM

I can undertake the work to reverse engineer what's missing, the forend is very simple, the gun is an extractor not an ejector, and it's of a back action design but not a dominion action the lock plates fit up entirely differently. It's marked but .450 ex so I think that would be BPE rather than nitro so it's an earlier gun

I've made new forend irons up before when they have gone missing it's not a big job particularly in this case Where the only moving part is the extractor cam, the difficulty is that the design could be a lever type catch or a push rod.

As for the lockwork there is nothing wholely difficult about the lockwork, there will be a lot of time in milling the lock plate as it has to come out of very thick stock in order to include all the features. I can draw the inverted form of the RHS lock work and make that.. it's just going to require making a fair bit if tooling for a one off.

The mainspring I'm still at a loss on there is no stirrup I can only presume that some how the springs had roller bearings which acted directly on the back of the hammers


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HeymSR20
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Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 244
Loc: Scotland
Re: H&H double rifle story - Impossible parts search. [Re: Demonwolf444]
      #361570 - 06/02/22 02:26 AM

I suppose the best way to think of this project is a kit of parts. With new Holland Double rifles now being six figures and good used ones at auction are making £20,000 plus, there is potentially plenty of value to extract here. With a new forend and lock made by a third party it will never be a “pure” Holland, but how many of Holland’s actual gunmakers were / are in house compared to out workers who are used by many in the trade.

The one real big challenge would be engraving on the new locks. I expect replicating a full hand cut Rose and Scroll would be a challenge, particularly as every individual engraver had his own unique finger print. But given lack of engraving this challenge is somewhat reduced. And what is the state of the barrel’s- assuming still good.
And only the OP knows whether he has the skills to make the locks - hand forging, then filing up and heat treating all the required parts.

Whatever the case what a fascinating project. Whether you make money on it really is your call and depends on how you price the time. Whether it is worth spending £5000, £10,000 or 20,000 on a gunsmiths time is the call of that third party. Its a new Blaser, Heym or Merkel double rifle or a rebuilt Holland.


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