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THS
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Loc: Norway
.318WR double rifle barrel stamps?
      #169440 - 13/10/10 03:49 AM

Im about to start reloading ammunition for an old Westley Richards double rifle, chambered for the .318WR. The chamber is somewhat strange, as the brass become very disformed after firing. I therefore plan to convert 30-06 brass and scrap the brass after 1 firing, because they end up so disformed. I was unable to chamber a once fired .318WR cartridge after running it through a .318WR die, because it became to disformed... Because of this "problem" my reloading plans has been stranded for allmoust a year, but I now finally got all the equipment needed.


I now got some .318WR reloading data, but before I start I would like to know if any particulary safety measures has to be made based upon the stamps on the barrels.

They read:

Cordite 37 - 250 max

NP
BV
BP

318 EX

------------------


Any info or comments would be very much apriciated!


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bonanza
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: THS]
      #169442 - 13/10/10 04:24 AM

I get re-formed 30-40 krag brass for my .35 WCF, but it's very weakened at the shoulder after one shot.

--------------------


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doubleriflejack
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: THS]
      #169446 - 13/10/10 05:23 AM

I sent you a private message, regarding my serious concerns about what you have been doing, for, if things were normal, you would not be experiencing such deformed brass from you chambers. YOU NEED TO SERIOUSLY DETERMINE WHY THIS "PROBLEM," AS YOU CALL IT, IS HAPPENING, AND CORRECT IT. IT COULD BE A SIGN THAT DANGER IS LURKING. Cordite 37 250 max. means that original load intended was 37 gr. cordite, 250 grain bullet MAXIMUM, and not larger cordite charge and not heavier bullet! However, the 37 gr. cordite does not convert directly to any modern day nitro powder, so you cannot simply use 37 gr. of any modern nitro powder, so don't do that. You need to use only a percentage of the 37 gr. cordite, using a specific modern powder, with only a 250 gr. bullet; not heavier. YOU SERIOUSLY NEED TO GET AND USE A BOOK FOR SUCH INFORMATION, SUCH AS LOADING FOR BRITISH DOUBLE RIFLES, BY GRAME WRIGHT. However, first determine why you have been getting such deformed brass, and correct that problem; it could mean something is seriously wrong.

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THS
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #169447 - 13/10/10 05:54 AM

I have not handloaded and fired a singel shot with the rifle. The cartridges fired so far has been suplied by Westley Richards after inspecting the gun.

I have however tried to chamber a factory loaded case after using a .318WR siezer die and because it was to disformed after firing it would not chamber.



I got the book you mention and assumed the disformed brass was because there where much more variations in chamber tolerances from rifle to rifle when it was made than now. This asumption was made as there has been none of the typical pressure signs like stuck brass or cratered primers.


You seem to have a lot of knowledge, so I will contact you further on pm if you dont mind:)

Edited by CptCurl (13/10/10 09:50 PM)


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xausa
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: THS]
      #169448 - 13/10/10 06:46 AM

It appears that the fired case shown in your picture has been fired in an "improved" chamber, created in an effort to enhance the performance of the cartridge. Will the action close on a fired case?

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kamilaroi
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: xausa]
      #169456 - 13/10/10 11:32 AM

Could it be a WR "Accelerated Express"?

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AkMike
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: xausa]
      #169462 - 13/10/10 12:13 PM

Quote:

It appears that the fired case shown in your picture has been fired in an "improved" chamber, created in an effort to enhance the performance of the cartridge. Will the action close on a fired case?




I agree! You'll need to do a chamber cast and have custom dies made for it. On this side of the Atlantic I'd use CH4D to make them. I've talked to (IIRC)Dave, the owner and he's very sharp about chamberings.
http://www.ch4d.com/
But I don't know who does this on your side.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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THS
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: AkMike]
      #169468 - 13/10/10 06:15 PM

The action will not close on a fired case. Custom dies wil be very difficult to get on this side of the atlantic.


But since the owner has fired Westley Richards factory with no other problems than disformed brass, wouldnt it be concidered safe to reform 30-06 brass to .318WR and use them only 1 time and live with the disformed brass?


As for my thoughts on the reloading, I thought perhaps 46grs of N-160 could be concidered safe, as that would be 37 grs cordite x 1.24.


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bonanza
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: THS]
      #169473 - 13/10/10 11:07 PM

According to Kynoch, you should be getting about 2400 fps with a max load. Using a chronograph I'd find a medium speed powder and try to get around 2200 or 2300 fps.

What is the full case volume with N160 after firing? I have a .35 WCF double rifle and might be able to help you with a safe starting load.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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JabaliHunter
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: bonanza]
      #169475 - 14/10/10 12:18 AM

If it is an improved chamber, then by effectively firing 'fire-forming' loads you could run the risk of eroding the chamber throat. I think I would go the route of getting a Hornady Hydraulic Forming Die (to mimic the fire-forming) and then some custom full length loading dies. You shouldn't have any difficulty getting hold of custom dies from the USA if you get a chamber cast done and send off the casts (or send the fired cases - a RFD should be able to help there).
At the end of the day, its a Westley Richards DR - presumably fairly valuable, so I personally wouldn't be taking any short cuts. What do others think?


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #169476 - 14/10/10 12:43 AM

This is a problem that cannot be solved by "keyboard" advice. Evidently you have a non-standard chamber. Firing anything other than ammunition made specifically for this rifle can damage the rifle and possibly injure the shooter. Do nothing further with this rifle before taking chamber casts, slugging the bores, and getting expert advice as to identification of the proper cartridge followed by having custom reloading dies made. I recommend RCBS.

If all this sounds foreign to you, then wipe off your rifle and store it safely until you feel comfortable with this advice.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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AkMike
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: CptCurl]
      #169477 - 14/10/10 01:27 AM

I believe that CH4D can ship overseas. Write them a email and ask. Your local gunsmiths should be able to do a chamber cast and slug the barrel for you. Then simply send the bismouth casting to CH4D.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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DarylS
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: AkMike]
      #169482 - 14/10/10 03:12 AM

Your fired brass looks exactly like my friends WR Mauser's brass, before and after firing. It is very similar to an improved case. His rifle, a Westly Richards Mauser was never modified after leaving the factory. I believe that is what the brass is supposed to look like. The shoulder is virtually identical to a .416 Rigby shoulder. How about a picture of your factory round?

Will used to load for it using CH4D dies I believe and achieved 2,350fps to 2,400fps with 250gr. Barnes old style RN bullets. He did not load it hot as it has about 73gr. capactity, roughly 10gr. more than an '06 and is similar to an improved case.

Fired cases should go back into the chamber, in any rifle. If not, the chamber is not round or not straight. IT matters not what rifle or ctg. it is, a fired round MUST fit the chamber it was just fired in as brass shrinks .001" on average after expanding to fit and seal the chamber when fired. This shrinkage is what allows it to be extracted. if it didn't shrink after firing, you wouldn't get it out. Try turning the case and re-inserting it into the chamber. If at some point, it re-chambers, it has an out-of-round chamber.

Could it be that brass from one barrel won't chamber in the other, but will chamber in the barrel it's fired in? That could very well be the situation, ie; both chambers are not identical. Sized brass most certainly chamber.

Making your brass from .30/06 cases is quite feasible - they need to be necked up first - perhaps to .375" then sized back down to place the shoulder in the proper place for proper headspace.

To simily neck them up and fire, takes the chance of blowing the rifle up due to very much excessive headspace on an unaltered '06 case. The shoulder MUST be properly adjusted, as I noted. Re-forming the shoulder as noted, is called producing a 'false' shoulder.

This picture should explain what I said about necking up and then using the FL die, properly positioning the shoulder. The rifle I am altering brass for, is a 9.3x57 Husky. The rifle has .019" headspace - .007" is MAXIMuM CIP, .006" maximum SAAMI allowed for safety for any modern rifle.

You can actually see the difference in height of the shoulders betwen the simply necked up case and the formed case. As this 'newly' and properly formed brass perfectly fits the chamber, it will last for at least 30 firings.
The first case is a factory case. The second is a factory case merely necked up. The shoulder is too low (body too short) to fit the chamber properly with support between the shoulder of the case and the shoulder of the chamber.

The third case is a case necked up straight in one pass with a die I modified. The forth is a straightened case necked down in a 9.3x57 FL die set properly to make a shoulder in the proper location, so that there is a slight 'crush' fit when the bolt is closed.

This is the same thing you should do to your .30/06 brass before ever firing one in this rifle. With proper fitting brass, the chamber is perfect.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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simonsaorsa
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: DarylS]
      #169490 - 14/10/10 05:22 AM

The stamps are the "proof" marks. We have a quaint custom here in the UK and Europe that gunmakers have to send their guns out for independent testing at a proof house before sale to the public to make sure they won't blow up. The proof house then puts their stamp on the rifle or shotgun. Your Westley will have been proofed at the Birmingham or London Proof Houses. You can look them up on the web if you are interested in your rifle's history.

doubleriflejack basically explained what the marks mean. There is more in Graeme Wright's book, now into its 3rd edition.

Westleys have or at least had an operation in the USA - you could do worse than drop the rifle off with them to investigate. I hope the rifle has not been converted to the "improved" chambering. The 318 was not meant to be a rocket like the 270 Winchester let alone your US magnums. Boddington considered it a fine enough cartridge in its plain jane formulation.


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doubleriflejack
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: THS]
      #169493 - 14/10/10 05:43 AM

I sent you a PM, in answer to your PM to me. The comments mentioned by other here are valid; I am now convinced that someone in the past has, indeed, altered the chambers in your rifle, so you need to determine exactly the dimensions of the chambers, see that they both are the same, and you need to have a custom, specially made, die set made up for the rifle, to allow you to handload for it. DO NOT FIRE ANY MORE STANDARD .318 CARTRIDGES IN THE RIFLE, for it obviously is no longer chambered for those cartridges. I really hate it, when someone alters a rifle in this way, but it has been done numerous times in the past, and will, no doubt, be done numerous times in the future---a sad state of affairs, but a fact.

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THS
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: DarylS]
      #169494 - 14/10/10 05:46 AM

Quote:

The shoulder is virtually identical to a .416 Rigby shoulder. How about a picture of your factory round?



Yes, the fired case have a shoulder allmoust identical to the .416 Rigby. The fired case is to the left on the picture and the factory cartridge to the right.

Quote:

Fired cases should go back into the chamber, in any rifle. If not, the chamber is not round or not straight. IT matters not what rifle or ctg. it is, a fired round MUST fit the chamber it was just fired in as brass shrinks .001" on average after expanding to fit and seal the chamber when fired. This shrinkage is what allows it to be extracted. if it didn't shrink after firing, you wouldn't get it out. Try turning the case and re-inserting it into the chamber. If at some point, it re-chambers, it has an out-of-round chamber.



That might be an issue as well. I will look into to that as well as other things and report my findings.


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kuduae
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: THS]
      #169499 - 14/10/10 08:33 AM

I faintly remember a description of such a sharp-shouldered chamber in a Westley-Richards repeater. IIRC it was mentioned by Ken Waters, who had such a rifle rebored to a wildcat he named .35-318, retaining the original sharp-shouldered chamber. My "Master Index" sais it was in Handloader Magazine #114, page 14. Perhaps a member still has this issue?

--------------------
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Mike_Bailey
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: kuduae]
      #169521 - 14/10/10 06:31 PM

THS, I would phone Westleys in Birmingham and ship the rifle to them. Gun not closing on fired shells, send it to them, donŽt blow up a vintage Westley and for the sake of a few Kroner youŽll know what you have !, best, Mike

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THS
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #169556 - 15/10/10 04:49 AM

I have now talked to WR and the owner of the rifle.

The owners father bought the rifle brand new and is according to Westley Richards chambered for .318 WR Square shoulder. WR knew they have told customers in the past to use regular .318WR ammuntion, but would now leave that choice up to the customer, because of the possible danger of case rupture.

So.. What to do now?

I will inform the owner to get custom dies, hang it on the wall or continue to hunt with the factory ammunition as he has done the last 20 years. I supose its up to him...


As for chambering a fired case... I remebered wrongly. It is possible to chamber used brass, but it locks very, very hard.


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doubleriflejack
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: THS]
      #169558 - 15/10/10 05:23 AM

I believe that I have discovered exactly why your rifle is as it is, with the oddball chambers. Since I have never owned a .318 WR, though I have handled cartridges a few times, and have seen a few double rifles in this caliber, including one extremely nice WR, cased, I decided to do a little research on the cartridge and on the double rifles chambered for it, something everyone should do, if they are contemplating the possible purchasing of such a rifle, or who have already done so, but are not all that familiar with the cartridges used in such. The cartridge was designed, of course, for bolt action rifles, but a few double rifles have obviously been chambered in it, same as was done with the .416 Ribgy cartridge, though not a good idea, as the extraction/ejection isn't as positive acting, and the breech pressures should be kept as low as possible for double rifles too. Anyway, the .318 WR bullet dia. is .330", 250 gr. bullet at 2400 fps velocity. I am sure that you already knew all that, but I next read that West. Rich. had done some experimental work on the cartridge, designing a more square shouldered version of the cartridge, TO IMPROVE HEAD SPACE CONTROL. At that point, I said "BINGO," that explains why you have a DR for that version of the cartridge. Reading more, it said that this more square shouldered version DID NOT LAST, thus we have the more common version we now are more familiar with. Seems to me that you have to choose between two choices: 1. Get custom made, special order, handloading dies, and load for the rifle as is, OR 2. Have a good well experienced gunsmith ream out the chambers for the more common version of the cartridge, so you can easily shoot the more common cartridges for the caliber.

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THS
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #169566 - 15/10/10 07:30 AM

Thank you for the research Doubleriflejack!

As for option 2, would it at all be possible to ream out the chamber for the regular .318WR since the straight wall chamber is larger? I supose the barrels have to be set back or something in order to do this?

Its like, you can ream out a 6.5x55 chamber for the wildcat 6.5-06, but you cant go the other way around without setting back the barrel right?


If it is possible to ream out the chamber, will the rifle value drop? Are oddbal calibers/chambers priced among collectors?


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JabaliHunter
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #169567 - 15/10/10 07:55 AM

There are photos of the square shouldered .318 WR in both Hoyem and Fleming's books. I have a couple of observations/questions:

I may be wrong, but it appears that the shoulder on the square shouldered case is slightly further forward, so I can't picture how the chamber could be reamed out from the square shouldered version to the original.

Obtaining, custom dies for reloading would still require standard ammunition to be fire-formed for subsequent reloading. Personally, this is not something I would be comfortable doing with a double rifle due to the risk of rupturing a case and/or worse, although it appears that the owner has been doing this for 20yrs. Therefore, I can see 2 options, obtaining another rifle with the chamber reamed to .318 WR square shoulder to use for fire-forming cases, or get a forming die such as the Hornady in my previous post ($165).

If you cannot get a chamber cast done or send fired cases, surely WR should be able to supply reamer dimensions to the die maker(s) or even obtain dies directly and supply them to Norway?


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #169574 - 15/10/10 10:43 AM

Anybody can do chamber casts from Cerrosafe, which is available from Brownell's, Midway or Huntingtons. That's all you need to have custom dies made.

This is not a difficult problem.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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doubleriflejack
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: THS]
      #169657 - 16/10/10 05:32 AM

Having no access to the .318 WR "square shoulder" version case, nor dimensions of it either, I was only taking a guess that it could be reamed out to more common version of same caliber, BUT PERHAPS I WAS IN ERROR. If too much metal was removed with the "square shoulder" version, certainly it could not be simply reamed out to common version, because it has already been reamed beyond reverse alteration, without some serious metalwork possibly being done to rifle to return it to its original common version of cartridge. Such a thing can only be assessed after a dimensional study of the two cartridge versions, to see, but it looks as if you have already answered that question, since you have the two cartridge versions at hand. I, too, wondered if, as collector's value, as is, it would be better to simply preserve, but I cannot answer that, for I know nobody who collects such. I am certain that the "square shoulder" version double rifle is a very rare commodity, indeed, and collectors of it would be even rarer, so I seriously doubt its collector's value---short suppy, but little or no demand! Fire forming of brass can be done, easily, safely, using new brass, WITHOUT FIRING WITH BULLETS! That is, you would not be firing bullets in loaded cartridges. SIMPLY FIRE FORM WITH PROPER LOAD OF PARTICULAR POWDER AND WITH FILLING ONLY; NOT BULLET. IT WORKS WELL, AND SAFELY, AT LOW PRESSURE, SO NO WORRY ABOUT CASE PROBLEMS DUE TO FIRE FORMING. Once fire formed, simply load the cases normally, with bullets, and fire normally. I have done this a lot, with other calibers, with no problems.

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Huvius
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Re: .318WR double rifle barrel stamps? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #169660 - 16/10/10 05:47 AM

I would suspect that the previous owner may have a quantity of fired brass which can simply be neck sized and reloaded. No problem.
IMO, if the neck dimensions, overall cartridge length and powder charge are the same for both 318WR variants, there should be no issue with firing the standard 318WR cases in this chamber. And this is the easiest way to get well formed brass for the handloading process which would eventually be the remedy to your situation.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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