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LGF
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In a charge, how close before you fire?
      #96303 - 08/02/08 06:33 PM

A question for those of you who actually do this for a living:

In a buffalo or elephant charge, how close do you let the animal get before firing at the brain? Of course, individual ability and situation will be determining factors, but if YOU have a big nasty coming at you, when do you fire? Assuming an adequate calibre, of course.

I have been meaning to ask this for years, but a crabby elephant brought it to mind (or brain) again yesterday. He changed his mind before I had to answer it for myself.


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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: LGF]
      #96341 - 09/02/08 04:06 AM

Well assuming the animal is within range of your big bores accuracy (50 meters), as soon as possible!

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gator
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: ]
      #96368 - 09/02/08 11:13 AM

about 36" was the closest, and that time was not a good situation. ended ok but way too close.

but in general you have one shot, so you make sure you're not going to miss. in brush and tall grass it can be 15 feet away.


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NE450No2
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: ]
      #96369 - 09/02/08 11:18 AM

LGF

How close depends on the circumstances.

1. Is the charging animal one you have previously shot?

2. Is the charging animal one that you WANT to shoot, or are ALLOWED to shoot?

3. Or is it one that will cause some DRAMA if you shoot it?

4. What kind of rifle are you using, Bolt, Single Shot, or Double?

Hunting elephants in Zim I have had several false charges from cow and young bull elephants where they stopped at 10 to 12 yards.

Durring there rush foward they showed all the "normal signs" of a false charge, the easiest factor to see is the ears flared out.

Even with their ears flared out my comfort zone stops at @ 6 yards. None came that close.

I have buff try to get up and get me, but they were hamered before they could regain their feet.

I hunt with a double rifle, which I FEEL gives me the ability to wait a little longer before shooting in a "charge" of an animal I do not want to shoot.

If it is an animal that I WILL be shooting, then if the charge is "danger close" ie within 20 yards I would probably shoot at around 12 yards and again at around 6 yards.

I did shoot a bull elephant at 120 yards, twice with my 450 No2, he spun around and immediately charged us, but fell down [my second shot had broken his front leg] after 2 or 3 elephant lengths.

I ran toward him, and he got up, I stopped at about 50 yards and brained him at the insistance of the PH. At that distance I felt I had time to shoot 2 shots and get in a reload before he got "danger close", especially as I had seen that he had a "bad leg".

I think in most charge situations the tendency is to shoot when the animal is too far away and the shot[s] are not properly placed, then he is too close to reload/rebolt, and the hunter is "savaged".

I HIGHLY recommend you watch ALL of Mark Sullivans videos. As he has perfected the proper way to handle a charge that developes from "Danger Close".

Watch them in the order they were filmed, and you can see how he learns, and perfects the technique.

There is a BIG difference in how he does and reacts to the first charge in "Black Death" and the charges in his later videos.

Whether you agree with his hunting philisophy or not, it does not matter, IF YOU WANT TO SURVIVE YOUR FIRST charge, then look at his videos. Study his technique, and practice it.

There is NO DOUBT in my mind, that watching his videos, and practicing his technique, saved my life in 2004 when was charged by a 350lb Gorilla from 12 yards, hitting him in the head at 6 yards. I had a bolt 458 Win Mag.

A gorilla is faster out of the blocks than ANY cape buff or elephant, I guarentee.

His techniques also gave me the confidence to stand firm on those elephant false charges that stopped 10 yards away, with the confidence that I was in complete control of the situation.

And gave me the confidence, and ability to kill several elephants at 6 yards or less.


It is nice walking "through the woods", having comfort in feeling, that ANY animal that charges you has just commited suicide, and that the extreme danger is theirs, not yours.

Study Sullivans videos, practice your shooting/reloading.

You have no time to be scared, no time for fear, you only have time to place your bullet in the proper spot.

THAT is the only thing that will save you, when HE COMES.


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LGF
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: NE450No2]
      #96392 - 09/02/08 05:30 PM

Gentlemen:

Many thanks for your responses. Sinner, NE450No2 gets at the main point – the great majority of charges by nonwounded elephants and lions are ‘mock” – the animal will stop before it reaches you. If you shot every animal who looked threatening at 50 yards you would have a lot of explaining to do. I gather from people who have experience that buffalo don’t waste energy on mock charges; they usually mean it.

NE450No2 gets at all the issues. I am not hunting, just walking, so I usually do not have to worry about wounded animals. Of course, there are some wandering around with spear wounds or snares, and are nearly as cranky as an animal just shot. And this area is thick bush, so things happen fast.

His point on not shooting when the animal is too far is my main concern; you want to let it get close enough to be sure it is serious, and to ensure a decent hit. No one would care if I had to shoot a buffalo, but there would be considerable drama after shooting an elephant; getting squashed might be less painful!

I have not watched the Sullivan videos, but I guess I should. Having walked thousands of miles through buffalo country over thirty years without ever being charged, I must confess to having severe doubts about the ethics of a man who seems able to produce a charge at will. But your point is well taken.

I carry a .470 and practice when in the US, where I can reload ammo. I have no idea how well practice on an IPSC course translates into reality, but at least I am reasonably confident about speed, accuracy and reloading on the move.

Again, many thanks for the excellent advice, and I look forward to input by other people with plenty of experience.


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Ripp
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: LGF]
      #96413 - 10/02/08 03:26 AM

In 40 plus years of hunting I have only been charged 4 times..twice by bears and once by a buffalo in Zim..after he had already been hit 5 times total --and once bowhunting a bison in the Dakota's..

In all instances, I have waited until they were close enough were I was certain of the shot--in both cases with the bears--they were 20 feet or less--with the cape buffalo--about 15 yards..and the bison..got behind a tree as he rush by--as he stopped to see where I had gone--let another arrow fly and he ran the opposite direction only to collapse within about 40 yards...

I have watched most of Sullivans dvd's--and while I do NOT approve of most of what he does--agree totally with the above post--there is definitely something to learn there..once you get past the theatre and arrogance..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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hoppdoc
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: Ripp]
      #96433 - 10/02/08 10:31 AM

I have never been inolved in a real charge--

I do not have Sullivans DVD's.I am concerned that any video can make you think he shoots closer than he really does.

From others who have watched all his video's--how far does he shoot the initial Buff vs the subsequent animals?? What's his ranges??

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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JPK
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #96442 - 10/02/08 12:46 PM

HopDoc,

No matter what their doing with the zoom and the lenses, you know its close when he has to step out of the way of the skidding very recently dead critter! Guys, the key to watchg MS DVD's is to turn the sound off!

Like 450NE No2, I've faced a bunch of bluff charges from eles. I don't find the ears a reliable indicator of whether the effort is a bluff or for real though. I've been involved in two for real charges, one with ears laid back, one with ears spread. But the eyes tell the story, when it is for real the hate is easy to see; the same look is absent with bluffs. BTW, neither of the two for real charges were preceeded by bluffs, the were both charges on sight, or smell or hearing maybe, but the began instantly.

Everyone wants to wait until the shot is sure, but remember, the shot is NEVER sure. None of us is perfect and we've all made better and poorer shots. The DR gives the opportunty for two very quick and so two very close shots, but you ought to be using enough gun in case the shot isn't perfect.

I've been told more than once that in Zim, 10yds is the limit for a self defense claim, outside of that and you have automatic trouble. How the elephant gets to 10yds has an impact on how much window you have. If the ele is standing at 15 or 20 and posturing, etc, and then decides to give it go, you have a lot of time since the ele will still be accelerating. If the ele crosses the 10yd line at top speed, less time. If its thick and the ele is unseen and already there when it comes, almost no time.

If the ele is coming for you, then there isn't a lot of relative motion, and it mostly elevation, but if the ele is after another in your party there can be quite a bit of relative motion because of speed and closeness.

Some of you have seen the following photo sequence of an for real charge where I stopped the ele at 7yds, as paced off after the event. Sorry if it bores you, I still get excited looking at the photos. My two attempted brain shots were both low, since I misread the ele's head position, which was lower than I'd ever seen before then. The PH, who shot after my two was also low. You could cover all three of our shots with a playing card. But I was using enough gun that a too low shot stopped her in her tracks and the subsequent shot got her to retreat. Just remeber, you cannot rely on being perfect! Use enough gun!

Here is the sequence, hopefully copied from my earlier post.

Thought I would add photos of the charge sequence that I recieved a bit ago from Dave Hulme who was the photgrapher for this great series.

She is coming!


PH Richard Tabor fires a warning shot over her head using one barrel of 470 when she is about here.


I fire first one barrel, which stops her cold but is low, and then the second barrel which is also low but gets her turning to leave.


I am reloading my double rifle in this photo. Rich Tabor fires his second barrel but he is also low.


I reload one barrel and get in a good heart/lung shot.


Rich has gotten in a heart/lung shot and I reloaded one again and get in a raking shot that runs the length of her left lung. I'm just lowering my rifle after the shot.


The quiet calm after the action.


Conitinues.


Until Dave Hulme, who has an awesome sense of humor, breaks the tension.


Tense follow up.


We find blood and put a tracker between us to guide us as we keep our heads up and eyes open for trouble. But we round a corner and she is dead.






We were not hunting this elephant, btw, but once we had to shoot we had to continue until the business was concluded.
Good fun, after the fact. A cold beer never tasted better. Richard and I were pretty quiet but Dave was really wound up and didn't stop talking for two days!

JPK

Edited by JPK (10/02/08 01:03 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: JPK]
      #96451 - 10/02/08 02:36 PM

Quote:

Some of you have seen the following photo sequence of an for real charge where I stopped the ele at 7yds, as paced off after the event. Sorry if it bores you, I still get excited looking at the photos.




Its perfect for the discussion and an illustration of a true real life direct experience. Never feel shy at re-posting it if necessary and thanks for displaying it again with comments and added photo.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NE450No2
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: NitroX]
      #96456 - 10/02/08 03:57 PM

JPK

That elephant looks friendly to me, she has her ears out, smile on her face, just probably "running up" to see if you have any peanuts in your pocket for her.

There is NOTHING like elephant hunting.

As I have said before, WELL DONE, good shooting, good gun handling [reloading], and good follow up shooting.

Perfect Double "Riflemanship".

Edited by NE450No2 (10/02/08 04:00 PM)


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JPK
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: NE450No2]
      #96468 - 10/02/08 05:34 PM

Nitrox,

Thanks. I'm sure you and others, including me, dislike repost after repost and it can seem like tooting one's horn a bit too much.

450NE No2,

Thanks.

Yea, good reloading - that wouldn't have been nessecary if I'd made the first or second shot right! But her head was very low, you can see it in the second photo. I needed to have been over the eye line rather than below it. I believe I focused on the prominent forward bulge of the zygomatic arch rather than finding the less distinct end of the arch. I have a LONG way to go to "seeing" the suspended brain like Richard Harland describes.

The day prior to this charge, a bull came from maybe 75yds, on sight or smell again. Ears back, eyes malevolent. He checked at maybe 12yds, but only after a shot over his head. After a long standoff, ears spread and eyes more curious than malevolent, a second shot over his head got him to leave and he just ambled away. This wasn't his first go it seems since he had a nice bullet hole in his right ear.

We were in the Save, where the elephants are fierce. 500 Grains has had to stop one or two there.

Looks like I will be returning to Zim for more elephant hunting this year, perhaps as early as May. Only enough time available for a two week hunt. Thankfully, I have a couple hundred of Mike Brady's solids. Any plans?

JPK


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NE450No2
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: JPK]
      #96529 - 11/02/08 01:39 PM

Have a good hunt.

May go back next year, probably to the SAVE.
It is a great place to hunt.


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Ripp
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: JPK]
      #96534 - 11/02/08 03:17 PM

Quote:

Nitrox,

Thanks. I'm sure you and others, including me, dislike repost after repost and it can seem like tooting one's horn a bit too much.

450NE No2,

Thanks.

Yea, good reloading - that wouldn't have been nessecary if I'd made the first or second shot right! But her head was very low, you can see it in the second photo. I needed to have been over the eye line rather than below it. I believe I focused on the prominent forward bulge of the zygomatic arch rather than finding the less distinct end of the arch. I have a LONG way to go to "seeing" the suspended brain like Richard Harland describes.

JPK




Have never hunted elephants but have one booked in 2010--per my conversations and readings..if you break the broom handle of imagining one sticking out both sides of the ears and through the head..is suppose to work for braining them..as I mentioned.. have never tried it but sure plan too when the opportunity arises..

Personally I think Harlands book is awesome..The guy I plan to be hunting with --Ivan Carter..states that he strongly prefers brain shots--said he had not done a heart/lung in years..not sure if that is all hype or whatever--looks like quite a "rush" ...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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ozhunter
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: Ripp]
      #96537 - 11/02/08 03:48 PM

Although I don't shoot for a living and haven't had plenty of experience, I must say I have seen a few mock charges from Ele and even Lion but have only had to shoot one in self defense.
The distance was at about the maximum legal distance for a self defense shooting which was about ten yards but in this circumstance we had no choice than to shoot to kill as it came straight for us from about twenty yards from a standing position through super thick cover bolling over trees on the way.
If it was in more open country we might have been able to let it come in a couple more meters but know doubt with the same outcome.


Edited by ozhunter (11/02/08 07:26 PM)


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NE450No2
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: Ripp]
      #96554 - 11/02/08 06:52 PM

Ripp

I know Ivan Carter, and I know people that have hunted with him, and I have seen videos of some of his hunts.

He will get you close to the elephants, real close.

Practice shooting at 6 to 12 yards.


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DDouble
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: NE450No2]
      #96588 - 12/02/08 05:19 AM


A MOST important asset of a hunter is reading body language.

There are animals you can tell are in a full charge 40 yards away. Others are confused as what to do themselves!! These last ones are the ones that KILL you.

One thing about these last ones is that a shot (over the head or a non lethal hit in chest or head) may turn them away (more often with elephant than buffalo).

I have a lot of experience with buffalo, and can pretty much tell what is real from what is not (yes I am smart enough to know I can still easily fail).

Hunted elephants twice in Chewore and bowhunted (stalked) a lot in the Save Conservancy (Humani) so I have far less (actually very very little) experience. But felt ele are a bit more difficult to read than buffalo.

Dont know about lion, but if they come they look mighty fast!! Sullivan almost certainly would not be here if he would tease lions to make videos.

--------------------
Ddouble


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JPK
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: Ripp]
      #96591 - 12/02/08 06:42 AM

[quote
per my conversations and readings..if you break the broom handle of imagining one sticking out both sides of the ears and through the head..is suppose to work for braining them..

Personally I think Harlands book is awesome..The guy I plan to be hunting with --Ivan Carter..states that he strongly prefers brain shots--said he had not done a heart/lung in years..not sure if that is all hype or whatever--looks like quite a "rush" ...

Ripp




Ripp,

The trick is to break, in the center, the "broomstick" which runs from EAR HOLE TO EAR HOLE through the brain.

The trouble with this in practice is that to know where the ear hole is you need to find the rear of the zygomatic arch, which is the bone structure that runs more or less front to back under the eyes and under the glands and ends about 2-3" under and a bit behind the ear holes. The front portion under the eyes is more prominent, especially in less than bright light. The ear holes are not visible from the front and are about 1 1/2" in diameter. They are easiest seen from slightly behind broadside to the ear/head junction.

Since when the elephant raises or lowers its head the front portions of the zygomatic arch rise more, or drop more, than the end below the ear hole, if you don't key on the end of the arch and instead key on the more promoinent forward portion, your shot will be high or low. High if the eles head is up, low if it is down. Keying on the eyes has the same effect. Finding the rear of the zygomatic arch would be easy if you were to observe from a distance, but if you push in to close range, under 15yds in my book, the elephant will almost surely sense you and be moving, at least its head, when the moment for the shot comes, which is the moment the ele notices you.

Shooting elephant, I find elevation a heck of a lot more difficult to smoke out than centering the shot where the brain is. BTW, too low is generally better than too high. With a too low shot you still have the possibility of spining the ele from the front and a miss low often drops and knocks out an elephant (if you're using enough gun) while a too high shot need to be really close to have any visible effect from the bullet striking. I believe that this is because there is much more solid bone to which to tranmit energy below the brain than above which is only honeycomb.

A heart shot on an elephant is as simple as hitting a five gallon bucket and it lacks the intense satisfaction of the perfect brain shot, or even the intense "oh shit" of a less than perfect brain shot. But be aware, a poor brain shot might get your PH into the game if this is significant to you.

I've corresponded with Ivan Carter and hope to hunt with him not too far into the future. He's an ele fanatic. You will have a GREAT hunt with him.

JPK

Edited by JPK (12/02/08 06:50 AM)


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Paul
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: JPK]
      #96619 - 12/02/08 06:32 PM

What a great thread! And I'd never seen the pics before.

A few questions:
- Where can an Aussie get Mark Sullivan's video cheapest?
- Can anyone draw us elephant kill spots showing the broomstick stuff etc?
- What chance someone only hunting buffalo might have to shoot an elephant in self-defence?
- How do you prove you had to do it?
- What happens if you can't?

Thanks in anticipation
- Paul


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Will
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: LGF]
      #96626 - 13/02/08 01:05 AM

There are no hard and fast rules about charges. In my limited experience, I could tell when the elephant were serious.

It is best if you can wait until they are close, maybe five yards. Though the brain shot is nice, a good frontal heart shot will probaly stop them too.

Hitting the brain on a frontal shot on elephant is tougher to get done than imagined, especially in a charge. When they are close, their head is down and the tendency/instinct is to shoot too low.

One can Monday-morning-quarterback charges after the fact, but I would guess that without tons of experience in charges it is mostly a crap shoot. Sometimes you get lucky. I used to dream about it all the time. Maybe that helps!

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

Edited by Will (13/02/08 01:17 AM)


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Ripp
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: Paul]
      #96628 - 13/02/08 02:02 AM

YOU CAN CHECK KEVIN ROBERTSON'S "PERFECT SHOT" BOOK WHICH GIVES A GOOD ACCOUNTING OF SHOT PLACEMENT--RICHARD HARLAND'S BOOK "NDLOVU" IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE BEST I HAVE EVER READ WITH COUNTLESS PHOTOS FOR SHOT PLACEMENT--BELLS BOOK IS ALSO VERY HELPFUL WITH SHOT PLACEMENT...


As to Ivan Carter---there will be a new dvd coming out later this year featuring him ele hunting--suppose to be fairly intense--should be a great show--believe Boddington is heading that one up..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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ozhunter
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: Ripp]
      #96649 - 13/02/08 09:48 AM

Quote:


As to Ivan Carter---there will be a new dvd coming out later this year featuring him ele hunting--suppose to be fairly intense--should be a great show--believe Boddington is heading that one up..

Ripp




At the opening scene of "BODDINGTON ON BUFFALO #2" there is an add for their up coming Ele DVD with one of Ivan's close encounters.
Quite impressive.


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Ripp
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: ozhunter]
      #96655 - 13/02/08 12:29 PM

When I was in Reno, Ivan had some footage of 6 different charges --all taken within a VERY close distance---a real adrenalin rush... I asked him what he uses for a gun--he was given a Heym .450 double--says he loves it...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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93mouse
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Re: In a charge, how close before you fire? [Re: Ripp]
      #96673 - 14/02/08 12:07 AM

Here is an interesting story by Andy Hunter:

http://www.african-hunter.com/mock_charge_or_real.htm


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