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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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livinus
.224 member


Reged: 12/06/06
Posts: 47
Loc: belgium
are express rifles accurate?
      #58793 - 14/06/06 08:35 AM

Being a new member to this forum, I would like to discuss a recent article in the French magazine "Armes de chasse". This article concerns the accuracy of new over/under rifles in the 2000-4000euro price range. The rifles tested were "shelf" specimens from various gun dealers, not the extra selected ones that gun writers often receive for test reports. The rifles were tested from a sitting bench with 3 different brands of ammo (RWS, Norma and Sellier et Bellot).
Distance 50 meters, open sights.
In Europe the accepted norm for double rifles is 5.0cm at 50 meters. Not all rifles met that criterium however.
As could be expected, most rifles did best with a specific brand of ammo, but at least one rifle proved exceptionaly acurate with all three brands of ammo. Here are the results, in order of merrit.(with smallest/largest groups) Sabatti Luxe (1,0-2.2cm!);Verney-Carron (0.7-5.5cm);Fabarm ((0.7-6.0cm)
;Zoli Focus (1.0-9.5cm);Fair Safari (2.5-11.0cm);Beretta 686 (2.5-14.5cm);Chapuis Super Orion (4.5-8.0cm);Blazer 2000(3.5-11.0cm);Browning 525 (4.5-13.0cm);Heym 2005 (5.0-14.5cm). Let me know what you think of these results.



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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: are express rifles accurate? [Re: livinus]
      #58795 - 14/06/06 09:30 AM

I would say that a cm or less is exceptionally accurate.

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unspellable
.300 member


Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa
Re: are express rifles accurate? [Re: bulldog563]
      #58929 - 17/06/06 06:59 AM

Best I know of was a 3/8 inch four shot group at 100 meters with a Continental side by side chambered for the 375 H&H Belted Magnum. At this late date I cannot recall the make.
I doubt if it could be done two out of three tries.


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: are express rifles accurate? [Re: livinus]
      #58931 - 17/06/06 07:24 AM

Livinus , there is no arguement that a double rifle is a target rifle, but just because it wasn't designed to be a target rifle, doesn't mean it is not accurate! If the rifle was well made in the first place, and if the proper load is shot in it, it will shoot to what ever sights that were installed, and filed at the makers.

I don't know how many GUN RAG writers I've read where they say the multiple flip-ups on a double rifle are for show only! This is not the case, those sights were placed there for a reason, and if properly loaded it will shoot to them. There is a great missconception, amoung even long time double rifle owners, that states that all double rifles cross at some point in their bullet flight, this is not correct, either. If prpoerly loaded the two barrels will not cross at any point, but shoot side by side. However, the tightest group one can expect, of both barrels, is that of the barrel that shoots the largest individual group. A double rifle that shoots all shots from both barrels in one ragged hole at 50 yds is crossing at 50 yds, and will ge wider as the distance increases. Striveing for the one hole group in a double rifle is not a proper goal. The proper group to shoot for is a comosit group that is one, and one half the size of the largest group fired by the most open barrel, with the aiming point in the exact middle of the composit group. This will mean that the left barrel has it's center of it's group on the left of point of aim, and that the right barrel's center of it's group is on the right of point of aim. The perfect load is not easy to find, and will change slightly as temp, and atmospheric conditions change, but not enough to make the shooter know the difference in the field, where the rifle was designed to be used!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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333Jeffery
.300 member


Reged: 21/04/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Florida
Re: are express rifles accurate? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #58933 - 17/06/06 10:35 AM

Dugaboy, I always thought that the barrels were supposed to shoot to the same point? But, parallel bores make more sense from a design standpoint.

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: are express rifles accurate? [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #58972 - 18/06/06 04:45 AM


In reply to:

Dugaboy, I always thought that the barrels were supposed to shoot to the same point? But, parallel bores make more sense from a design standpoint.







333Jefery The bores are not paralell, but converge! This is where many get the idea that the bullets must cross paths! The barrels must be made to converge, because of what is called barrel time, and recoil arch. Simply, the RIGHT barrel will have a line of sight through the bore that points to a spot that is low, and to the LEFT of where the sights are pointing on the target, and vice- versa for the left barrel. IOW, they not only converge, but point low as well. The amount is decided by the man regulating the rifle by fireing it at the target, and with wedges soldering, and resoldering till the proper barrel convergence is met.

The barrle's line of sight through the bore does cross, the bullets do not! The reason the bullets do not cross, if properly loaded, is, when the sights are on your point of aim, and the trigger is pulled, the recoil arch starts. For the RIGHT barrel it recoils up, and too the RIGHT with the bullet traveling down the bore. The point where the bullet leaves the muzzle should be where the sights were pointing when the trigger was pulled, but slightly to the right of poa. and vice versa for the left barrel.

Take a square piece of paper, and draw a line from the top corners accross the paper to the opposite corner on the bottom of the paper. The point where these two lines cross is point of aim. The bottom LEFT corner is where the RIGHT barrel is pointing with the sights pointing at the apex of the two lines in the middle. As the rifle is fired the right barrel more or less follows the line up along that line till the bullet exits. Where it exits, determins where it hits the target. The slower the bullet travels, the higher, and farther to the right it will strike the target, and vise versa for the LEFT . The key is to have the bullet exit just at the point where it will strike a place just on the right of point of aim, for the right barrel, and the on the left for the left barrel. This means the center of each barrel's individual group, should be on it's own side of POA with a composit group for both barrels forming a group that the center of will be at the poa.

This convergence cannot be pre- programed into the rifle,even identical rifles of the same chambering, but must be done by trial and error! When the load is proper the bullets from one barrel doesn't cross the path of the other barrel in flight!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Grizzly
.333 member


Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 359
Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA
Re: are express rifles accurate? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #58980 - 18/06/06 09:01 AM

My opinion is that they are accurate for hunting. Don't forget, you don't carry a bench hunting. With that said, most Express rifles are more accurate than the shooter.

As for the validity of a French test, I am certain they would do well in the grueling "drop/surrender" test .

Sorry Larcher, I could not help myself.

--------------------
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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: are express rifles accurate? [Re: Grizzly]
      #58995 - 18/06/06 03:43 PM

With my 9.3x74R Chapuis, scoped, I have killed a Kudy at a little over 300 yards. Hit him 3 out of 4 shots.
I killed a coyote at 271 yards, hit him with both shots.

I have shot my 450 No2 and my 450/400 at 200 and 300 yards with the flip up sights.
It just might suprise you how good they shoot at a distance.


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unspellable
.300 member


Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa
Re: are express rifles accurate? [Re: NE450No2]
      #59208 - 24/06/06 04:02 AM

I don't know about saying the two barrels shouldn't shoot to the same point. Say I have a medium bore that puts both barrels in one hole at 100 yards. At 200 yards the two holes will be the same distance apart as the muzzles were at firing. At 300 yards they will only be twice as far apart. (Neglecting all other variables of course.)

If the barrels are set to shoot exactly parallel then the two bullet paths are the same distance apart as the muzzles were at fring for the whole distance. They will be farther apart than the one holer all the way to 200 yards.

Don't forget that due to jump the muzzles will be farther apart at firing than their actual seperation on the rifle.

It would make life a little simpler for the regulator if he sets the barrels to shoot to the same point.



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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: are express rifles accurate? [Re: unspellable]
      #59224 - 24/06/06 08:44 AM

In reply to:

It would make life a little simpler for the regulator if he sets the barrels to shoot to the same point.





It might make life easier for you, because you don't have to finish the load developement, before you gat something you will accept! The whole idea of REGULATING the barrels is so they will shoot side by side, with a given load.

Folks keep confusing regulating with proper loading to shoot to the regulation. These are two intirely different things! The muzzle jump, and yaw is the same no matter what range you are shooting, with the same load! If you are loading your rifle to shoot one hole at any distance, it is not loaded properly!

The regulator has one advantage on you, he has a known load to regulate the barrels for. he knows that load is safe in his barrels, and by an educated guess, he solders them at a close starting point. He regulates by soldering shooting, soldering, and shooting till the barrels are shooting paralell to each other, but close enough that they form a composit group on the target . Distance is not a matter he is concerned with at this point. The barrel regulator is only interested that the barrels shoot to the same elevation as each other, and the spread beteen the individule barrel groups is no more that the distance between the center of the bores, apart, and that they form a tight composit group of both barrels. The rifle is completely regulated before the rifle is given to the sight filer. Because these barrels shoot side by side, the flip up sights can be made for several different distances, and only elevation is involved, for the sight filer!

You, on the other hand, can make up a load that will shoot to ONE HOLE at the distance "YOU" want,no matter how the barrels were regulated,or the sights filed, but that load will not shoot to the other sights, on the rib. If you are shooting one hole, at any distance, the bullets are crossing paths, and your load is slightly fast,and probably shooting a little low to the sights, but just slightly! This load is easy to fix, and it should be fixed, because it is not right!

If you back off very slightly till the barrels shoot slightly apart, but close enough to make an acceptable composit group, you will find the center of that composit group will match the elevation, at the distances filed into all the sights as well! Of course if you are sattisfied with a load that crosses, it's your rifle, do your thing, but just because you will accept it, doesn't make it a correct load!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: are express rifles accurate? [Re: livinus]
      #59384 - 28/06/06 02:50 PM

Livinus,

There was an excellent article by Jack Lott kindly posted by Nickudu (who posts some amazing reading material here and on AR) which talked about several double rifles made around the 1900s and their exceptional hunting accuracy. I printed out a copy at the time but have moved to a new address and cannot find the copy at the moment. If some member has it saved, I would request them to please post it here. The article should tell you a lot from an old master of hunting in Africa and his experience, though much has been said by the very experienced members here that completely agrees with Jack Lott's experience. Great minds think alike - we have some of the finest and moste xperienced shooters here today. Their opinions are solid gold!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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