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CptCurlAdministrator
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Loads for Curl's .300 Win. Mag. DR - a brain tease
      #50882 - 26/02/06 05:05 AM

OK all you double rifle gurus, we think collectively we're pretty sharp on troubleshooting these fascinating rifles. Let me report what I experienced with my Josef Winkler .300 Win. Mag. double. First a look at the rifle:



It's a nice Austrian SxS made in 1968 and imported by Paul Jaeger. I acquired this rifle in 1998. Being a fan of the .300 Win. Mag., I was excited to get this caliber in a DR. Now what does it shoot?

Intuition told me it would be regulated for the 180 grain bullets. After all, that weight is practically a standard for the cartridge. Having some on hand, I confidently set out for the shooting range. The 180 grain loads spread several inches at 50 yards.

My reaction, "Wow, this rifle must be regulated for 150 grain bullets." The 180's were spreading, so it either wanted more velocity (not an option) or it wanted less lead. Right?

So back to the range I went with 150's. They spread more! Did you hear that? Carumba! What's going on? Is the world flat? Are the laws of nature upside down? What to do? I thought about everything I knew of regulating DR's. No logic would help.

Desperate, I seized the only logic that came to mind: "If lighter spread more, then try heavier."

I loaded some 190 grain Hornadys. The barrel groups, though stll spread, came together some. They weren't spread as much as the 180's.

Next I tried 200's. More improvement, but still spreading.

Then the 220's. Perfection at last! And by perfection I mean accuracy to rival a bolt gun and perfect regulation.

These facts are the absolute truth. I know it to be real, because I witnessed the events myself. Eight years later I am still at a loss to understand why this rifle acts the opposite of every other double rifle I have known or heard about.

Has anybody had a similar experience? Can anybody explain what was going on with this rifle?

A real head scratcher, but a happy ending nonetheless.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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NE450No2
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Re: Loads for Curl's .300 Win. Mag. DR - a brain tease [Re: CptCurl]
      #50887 - 26/02/06 07:03 AM

Capt.
That is a nice looking rifle, very nice.

My "theory" is, when Josef made that rifle he was on the Schnapps , and he put the bbls on backwards, ie he put the bbl ment for the right on the left, and verse visa.

Try this for us. Load some 180 grain bullets with the same powder charge as the 220's. Then load some 180's to the same velocity as the 220's. Tell us how they shoot....
I have another "theory"....

Also what is your load with the 220grain bullets?

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Loads for Curl's .300 Win. Mag. DR - a brain tease [Re: CptCurl]
      #50892 - 26/02/06 09:06 AM

Capt, first let me ask if this double is the fastest chambered double rifle you have ever owned? I'd bet it is!

If it is, there is a little thing that is unique to very fast bullets in a double rifle! The faster the bullet, and the lighter the rifle, the adjustments to make change in POI become very minute! A very fast cartridge in a light double rifle is the hardest double rifle in existance to work up a regulateing load for! Even Holland & Holland built a custom double rifle chambered for 225 Win Mag, for one of the magazine writers, and they took a month of working every day with this rifle to get it regulated. If this rifle had been a 450NE with a 480 gr bullet at 2150 fps,in a 9.5 lb rifle, they would have regulated it in a couple of hours. The recoil of the rifle would have been far more forgiveing than a 180 at around 2900 fps.in a 8 lb rifle, thus giveing the regulator a wider lattitude in his load adjustments.

In your post, you didn't say exactly how the rifle was shooting! "Spreading" is not exactly explanatory.
Were the 180s shooting High or low, and were they crossing, or shooting wide. This is more important with this type of cartridge, than with a slower chambering usually paired with a double rifle. The adjustments in speed become very tiny, the faster the cartridge is normally. Where, for example, the 180s were shooting LOW & CROSSED, the slowing down of the load, or the upping of the bullet weight would move the POI in the right dirrection. As Tony suggests, if you use the 220 gr load with the 180 gr bullet, would effectively slow the 180 down, and reduce the recoil, placeing the 180 higher, and reduce the crossing. Just some things to think about!

It makes little difference, because you have found a load that works like it is supposed to, no matter how you found it. You can simply use the 220 gr load, or if you want to use the 180 gr bullets, then try slowing it down, with the load used for the 220 gr bullet. If that is close, the adjustments in podwer charge will likely be in the 10ths of a grain in powder weight,because of the very sensative nature inherent in double rifle chambered for very fast cartridges.

I'd be very interested in knowing exactly what the difference in the load would be when you find a load for the 180 gr bullet! GOOD LUCK with the 180 gr bullet, but then you always have the 220 gr bullet load that works! That is a lovely rifle, and needs to go to Africa for a full bag of plains game, and a big Leopard!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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bonanza
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Re: Loads for Curl's .300 Win. Mag. DR - a brain t [Re: CptCurl]
      #50900 - 26/02/06 10:25 AM

Me!

My .375 H&H was regulated for 300gr bullets, but I wanted to shoot 235gr pills. I tried 4 different powders and about 4 to 6 loads with each powder. My group went from 8+" to 2.4" for a six shot set. Even changing primers helped. My merkel did not follow the standard DR rules. BTW, that 235 grain bullets comes out at 2900fps - Sweet!

With much patience I now have a load for 235,270,300 and 350 grain bullets.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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500Nitro
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Re: Loads for Curl's .300 Win. Mag. DR - a brain t [Re: bonanza]
      #50905 - 26/02/06 11:31 AM


Bonanza

I found that bullet seating depth had a bit to do with regulation in my Merkel.

I also now have loads for 235, 270 and 300grains which helps when I am
going to take it after Pigs and Buffalo.

500 Nitro

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tinker
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Re: Loads for Curl's .300 Win. Mag. DR - a brain t [Re: 500Nitro]
      #50914 - 26/02/06 04:35 PM

500Nitro-

Tell me about bullet seating and your rifle.
I'm currently working out a load for my 8x60r and figure seating depth will come into the picture sooner than later.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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500Nitro
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Re: Loads for Curl's .300 Win. Mag. DR - a brain t [Re: tinker]
      #50917 - 26/02/06 05:26 PM


Tinker,

When I get any new double rifle, after getting it back from the gunsmith
who does all the checks I like done (I've explained this in previous posts),
I load up a range of Standard loads for that cartridge in sets of 4.
So 5 sets of 4 cartridges, generally starting well below normal load and
the last set of 4 at or slightly above normal load.

I then go down the range and see how it shoots.

Apart from 1 or 2 doubles, all of the ones I have shot like this (30+)
have shot reasonably well.

Once I decide on the best load, I then reload all the cases with this load
BUT I may play around with the seating depth of the bullets to see if this
has any affect on accuracy / regulation.

I sometimes find that it does have an effect on how close the shots fall on the target.

In regards to any recommendation on the OAL being longer than shorter than normal,
I have not done a comparison but nothing has ever jumped out at me as to one being
better than the other.

In regards to my Merkel, it just seemed to have quite an effect - the gun was accurate
but I just decided to play around a bit and it seemed to make a difference.

500 Nitro

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tinker
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Re: Loads for Curl's .300 Win. Mag. DR - a brain t [Re: 500Nitro]
      #50922 - 26/02/06 08:23 PM

Got it.

That makes perfect sense, and with this rifle I speak of the first two down the snoot landed one right above the other and right above the sight at fifty yards. The only issue with that load is that the brass was about ten thousandths long and I was juuuust pinching the bullets with that sweet little fu**up. Can't be as bad as the .323 Dia 125gr bullets the rifle had been shipped with...

It was refreshing too, as I'd been nervous about a few things I'd noticed with the rifle after I'd got it home, including the ammunition that'd come along with the gun. As this thing's an 8x60r from 1939 with a .318 bore it's anyone's guess as to what standard of the broad range of loads from the 8x60 family of cartridges this thing could have been regulated with. I've seen light bullets in the 2200+FPS range and I've seen heavy bullets in the 2700+FPS range. Had the 8x60 been settled as a Magnum cartridge by 1939? Hard to say. Heck, they were building 8x57 rifles then, one would think... At 2250FPS the Woodleigh 196gr bullets are hitting low. More bullet weight? More velocity? As I'm only working with the Woodleigh at this point, I'm nudging the velocity up, the bullets are printing further up and the groups coming together as I up the charge.

I'm getting it that small changes go a long way on paper and that this 8mm rifle might behave differently from big bore guns. I own three other double rifles, two of them sixteen bore roundball cartridge guns and the other a 500-450 bottleneck BPE. This rifle seems to do things in a completely different fashion. I'm remaining cautious, yet budgeting that the gunmaker was thinking magnum.

Thanks for the note.
I've kept the OAL constant so far, thinking I should save that variable for the end of the fine tuning.
As it is, I'm thinking I have a bit of work to do with my brass -- I'm forming from 7x65 and there's a bit of a crease on the necks from the shoulder of the parent cartridge -- accuracy doesn't seem to be what it should at this point. I haven't gotten up to what a full load would be either though and by the end of the next range session I'll be there.
I'm thinking a light clean up cut on the neck O.D. might offer more consistent neck tension, resulting in better accuracy for each barrel.
I've also noticed that the temperature of the gun itself may well make a difference.
The last time out I fired my first two shots fairly early in the morning from a cold (about 38F) rifle. The two pairs following those came later in the day (I had work to do out there) and grouped about an inch and a half away from the first two, each barrel in the same direction away from the first pair of shots, the rifle had warmed up with the day and stayed at around 65f until sundown.
I'll be keeping notes on that particular issue as I continue to run the rifle.


Thanks again for the note on OAL
I'll just have to see what happens as it all comes together.
Of course any other comments would be appreciated.


--Tinker



--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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500Nitro
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Re: Loads for Curl's .300 Win. Mag. DR - a brain t [Re: tinker]
      #50923 - 26/02/06 10:09 PM

Tinker,

2 things I've noticed but no conclusions

DR's of higher velocity / smaller calibres - I would say
30 cal and below are / do / can behave diff from Big Bores
and are alot more "finicky".

Re your shooting from clean cold barrels.
Fire 2 shots, one from each barrel BEFORE you start your tests.

Good luck.

500 Nitro

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ChopperGuy
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Re: Loads for Curl's .300 Win. Mag. DR - a brain t [Re: 500Nitro]
      #50931 - 27/02/06 03:10 AM

I acquired my .30-06 Krieghoff Classic just in time to scope and try factory ammo in it before going to Africa last August 2005. No time to do any load development if I wanted to get ready and comfortable with my new rifle. Luckily the Rem 180 gr Swift A Frame loads regulated VERY WELL and I used this rifle to take a white springbuck at 210 meters among several other PG species. I was very pleased.

I got it home and decided I needed to load a heavier bullet for it so I tried the 220 Woodleighs. My intention is to use the heavier bullets pig hunting here and in the bush on our next Africa hunting trip.

The 220 load that I settled on shot with almost the exact spread and POI at under 100 yards as the Rem factory load 180s I had been using. I figure I have a great "heavy" load for the '06 double on shorter range hunting excursions.

Pure luck on my part. I've said a big thank you to the gun gods and will hope for such luck again when trying to load a lighter bullet for my 9.3x74R Krieghoff double. (Fat chance of lighting striking twice. )

--------------------
"If you are in trouble, an airplane can fly over and throw you flowers, while a helicopter can land and save your life" Igor Sikorsky 1947

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500Nitro
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Re: Loads for Curl's .300 Win. Mag. DR - a brain t [Re: ChopperGuy]
      #50935 - 27/02/06 05:22 AM


Chopperguy

Most of the people I know who have 9.3x74R DR's have had no problem getting
different bullet weights to shoot to the same POI after a little tweaking of the loads
and range time.

So you may be lucky.

500 Nitro

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Grizzly
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Re: Loads for Curl's .300 Win. Mag. DR - a brain tease [Re: CptCurl]
      #50946 - 27/02/06 10:32 AM

My 2 cents.

The 300 WM is a very accurate generaly long range cartridge.

A double is a tool for shots under 100 yards as a rule.

At the shorter ranges, more lead is the rule.

I don't know if you have the data on how your rifle was regulated, but I would bet they did it with the heavies. You don't need a 180 or 190 grain boat tailed screamer with a high BC in a double rifle. In 300 WM, you want a rope shooter out to 100 yards or so that will generate the largest wound channel.

With shots over 100 yards, if what you are shooting at is going to try to kill you, you can, with practice, get at least 3 well aimed shots on your target. And if you were hunting something expecting a charge, you would load your magazine accordingly-180, 200, 220, 220.

They have turned your 300 into a true DR by regulating it with heavy bullets. Of course, as the 300 WM is still one of the more popular sniper calibers, perhaps there is a new market for double sniper rifles. But then we would to have a mag fed double. Actually, Rusty and I saw one at the Galazan booth at the Dallas show. Rusty handled it, I did not.

The maker of your double took a long range cartridge and gave you all of the advantages of the 300 WM for DR use.

I am new to the DR world, but am not new to the long range world. I shoot and reload for 50 BMG, 338 Lapua, but passed on the 408 Chevy Tac. At the 40 cal level, I found a wildcat round known as the 400 BAS, which is a "RUM type" version of the Chevy Tac - more powder capacity in the base and greater neck angles. Better powder burn and more cmpression in the case.

I believe I received the first off the line. With there being no line, we had to improvise somewhat. Now this round was designed by a benchrest shooter - a Champ. But I think I set him back when I insisted on a bipod.

He tested her on a 1000 yard range, using the bipod. 5 shots in under 2 minutes produced a tight group well under 8 inches.

The reason I digressed into long range was to emphasize the bigger at shorter theory. If I am shooting long range, I want the least weight bullet with the highest BC that I can put on the target.

IF range is not an issue, I care not about bullet weight, and at under 100 yards, care not about BC over 100 yards. As long as I can get a 220 grain bullet out at above 2500 fps, the rest will take care of itself.

My bet - if you used 200 grain bullets and targeted at 200 to 250 yards, you would get groups pretty close to your standard shots.

Powder is important. Slower burners fill the case. But you need to check outthe case design. Put a slow burning powder into a slight necked case and you will not burn all of the powder. The 300 WM is suitabe for the slower burning, but probably not the slowest burning.

Primers are critical. And expensive. I use only match primers in anything but 20 cal. The other exception to that rule is the semi auto.

Sorry to ramble, but I can't explain something like this without the big picture.





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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Loads for Curl's .300 Win. Mag. DR - a brain tease [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #50951 - 27/02/06 01:01 PM

Mac,

By "spreading" I mean that the right barrel group was to the right of the point of aim and the left barrel group was to the left of the point of aim. Just the opposite of "crossing".

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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mickey
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Re: Loads for Curl's .300 Win. Mag. DR - a brain tease [Re: CptCurl]
      #50957 - 27/02/06 02:08 PM

You could have meant the butt stock was growing larger. I hear that happens when a sleak young thing reaches middle age.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Re: Loads for Curl's .300 Win. Mag. DR - a brain tease [Re: CptCurl]
      #51027 - 28/02/06 02:41 PM

In reply to:

Has anybody had a similar experience? Can anybody explain what was going on with this rifle?




Curl,
Yes, I've had a couple of doubles do strange things not exactly the same as you describe, but along the same lines.

With your 300 it sounds to me like the lighter bullet- faster velocity loads are effecting the barrel movement to a greater degree than the slower 200 grain load.
Call it "regulation energy" for want of a better term where there is more of it (in your 300) with the lighter bullet weights than the heavier ones.
The old "barrel time" system of working up loads often goes right out the window with the smaller doubles IMO.
With faster cartridges in doubles, I think bullet acceleration speed down the bore can have more influence on where the bullet impact ends up than the barrel time/bullet weight system which usually plays a major part in many large cal moderate velocity doubles.

Edited by 4seventy (28/02/06 03:33 PM)

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