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NitroXAdministrator
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Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles
      #7240 - 22/01/04 03:44 AM

I am thinking of buying a Tikka 512 in double 9.3x74R.

What do you guys think of this U/O double rifle?

Also I believe it is the single selective trigger model. Did they also come out in twin triggers? This may be a difficult thing for me as all the shotguns and rifles I have used have had twin triggers and I have real problems using shotguns with single triggers.

Also does anyone know the weight of a Tikka 512 in twin 9.3 mm ?

Thanks.


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #7242 - 22/01/04 04:23 AM

NitroX, I don't know about the little double since Tikka took over the manufacture in Italy. I did have a Valmet 412, however,and still have a 412 12ga shotgun, and it was a really handy little rifle for North America, even with some fairly long range shooting. Mine was origenally chambered for 375 Winchester. It had a 1 in 12" twist, and worked with even the 300 gr .375 bullets. I had it re-chambered for 375 JDJ, and used the 300 gr Nosler bullets with good success! The regulation is a bit touchy, but when you get the hang of it, it works fine. I regulated mine for the 300 gr bullet, then installed ribs perminently. Mine was a single trigger, but the Valmet was available with double triggers. I don't know if the Tikka has them, though!

The regulation adjustments work like this, if you already know, maybe someone else does not! The front adjustment moves the barrels from side to side,or twist, and the middle one, under the forestock, makes the barrels converge, or widen! The adjustments are very abrupt, and do not take much to move the print on the target a lot! The Valmets were well made!

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Dark_Helmet
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7247 - 22/01/04 07:07 AM

I don't think I could ever shoot an over/under rifle... its just..... wierd.

double rifles should be side-bys in my mind, I just can comprehend that whole o/u rifle thing...



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luv2safari
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7252 - 22/01/04 09:14 AM

I have, and use a wide variety of the Valmet System guns and barrels. Tikka did make a double trigger receiver; I have one. I used in Tanz with 9,3 o/u barrels and 320 gr Woodleighs to take a decent buffalo. I just told the game scout it was a 375 Flanged. He didn't know the difference. Neither did the buff...ran off 30 yards and gurgled loudly...died. My 416 Rigby doesn't kill'em any deader.

The double trigger receivers are hard to find, and I was glad to get mine. I bought it new as a Tikka 412 with 12/9,3x74r, just for use in Africa and love the gun! Took a bunch of Francolin and plains game with it. There is no more versitile system around for such a moderate price. I much prefer it to my overpriced Merkel 204 two barrel set...stacked 9,3's and a set of 16 gauge over 8x57jr w/Goertz 4x in claws. The Tikka and my other various Valmet and Tikka combinations shoot rings around the pre war Merkel.

I am a bit of the same mind about a true double rifle being a SXS, but the o/u's have one great advantage. One can "regulate" them by changing the front or rear sight height. YOU WON'T get away with that in a SXS. They move at 10, 2,4, and 8 'o clock when ammo changes. The o/u just moves at 12 and 6. For me, an o/u is quicker to get on target with, but it sure can be a bitch loading that bottom barrel while running to beat hell...after or away from some jerked off critter!

As for the weight in exact pounds and ounces...too darned heavy for a 9,3!!! Then add that hunk of scope mount, and you'll be handing the rifle to a tracker to carry for a while.

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4seventy
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: luv2safari]
      #7254 - 22/01/04 09:51 AM

In reply to:

I am a bit of the same mind about a true double rifle being a SXS, but the o/u's have one great advantage. One can "regulate" them by changing the front or rear sight height. YOU WON'T get away with that in a SXS.



Interesting.

Yes, if you alter the sight heights on any double you are indeed doing one form of "regulating".
But you are merely "regulating" the SIGHTS.
This is not to be confused with regulating the BARRELS which is a totally different ball game.

If an O/U rifle is shooting its groups apart or crossed, and you change the front or rear sight height, the groups will still shoot apart or crossed!
They will impact at a different place on the target, but if the O/U is not shooting its groups together, no amount of front/rear sight alteration will bring them together.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: 4seventy]
      #7258 - 22/01/04 12:38 PM

I wonder if there is any way to find out its weight. If it say say was 11 pounds I would defintely say no - that is the weight of my .450 - and eleven would be way too much for a 9.3mm.

Ask the seller? And make sure he hasn't sold it already too!

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4seventy
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #7262 - 22/01/04 01:31 PM

For a 9.3x74 double I'd want the unscoped weight to be around 8 pounds or less.
I shoot a 400-350 with similar loads to the 9.3 and at 8 pounds it is really sweet to use and carry.

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luv2safari
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: 4seventy]
      #7265 - 22/01/04 03:28 PM

When changing bullet weights and/or velocities in a SXS the POI changes drasticly and at an angle of around 45 to 65 degrees, because the gun travels outward as well as upward, due to the barrels being on the sides.

In an O/U the gun just travels up. The degree of upward travel at the time the bullet exits the barrel determines where the new POI is. If otherwise regulated, the O/U will just move both barrels up, and the POI in relation to this. Say that it is regulated for 286 gr 's traveling at 2,300 fps:
1. A 250 gr at 2420 fps will print low
2. A 320 gr at 2100 fps will print high

In a SXS what happens is:
1. A 250 @ 2420 out of the right barrel prints low and left...out of the left barrel it prints low and right.
2. A 320 @ 2100 out the right barrel prints high and right, while it prints high and left out the left barrel.

Recoil starts as the bullet moves, not as it exits the barrel. That's why smaller faster bullets print lower and big slow ones print high. In the SXS you also have lateral movement to consider.

This is the best rationalization for O/U double rifles. A change in sight elevation brings them back close to target.

Heck...just buy the gun!! Its only money...

Also, I'll put my 412 9,3 dbl on a good scale soon and let you know the weight. Be aware that Tikka made two barrel weights in their 9,3's and other barrels. The most common is the set with a solid rib...heavy. They also made a light version with quarter rib and an improved front sight. I have both and will weigh both for you. I use the solid rib version and have the quarter rib set sold, I think.

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Edited by luv2safari (22/01/04 04:06 PM)

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4seventy
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: luv2safari]
      #7268 - 22/01/04 04:31 PM

Even more interesting.
Now from what I can make out you are saying that changing the bullet weight (or other things) in a SxS double can result in a change in the barrel groups on both planes, horizontal, ie shooting apart or crossed, and also vertical, ie the height of the groups in relation to the aiming point or sight picture?
And regarding the O/U rifle you are saying that there is only a change in the vertical plane and you are suggesting that therefore a correction made at the sights can put everything back to point of aim?

Well yes, it is true that USUALLY the O/U will only shift its bullet impacts along a vertical line.
But you are forgetting that the O/U is just as capable of shooting its barrels apart or crossed as the side by side is, if there is a change made to the load that the rifle was regulated for!

When changing to a different load, IF the O/U still prints both barrel groups together, but changes the height of impact, yes, you could alter the sight height to coincide with the new impact height, and all would be well.
But this OFTEN does not happen and the new load will OFTEN make the two barrel groups impact the target as two seperate groups, either apart or crossed, and as I said before, no amount of sight alteration can fix this.

Actually if any double, SxS or O/U is still putting both groups together with the new or changed load, but merely printing them too high or too low, BOTH styles, SxS and O/U can be put right with a sight height change.

If either the O/U or SxS are now shooting SEPERATE groups as a result of a load change, NEITHER O/U or SxS can be corrected with a sight height change!

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luv2safari
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: 4seventy]
      #7274 - 22/01/04 05:41 PM

Right! But, you must keep in mind that there is both lateral and verticle movement inherent in the horizontal SXS barrel design, that is not present in a verticle design. SXS barrels cause movement toward whichever side the barrel sits, then there is the rise, also. I have had a lot of experience with O/U double rifles and have found that, for the most part, the only change to POI is verticle...but not always. It seems that the soldered together barrels are the trickiest. Some stay put, while others confound me. Most stay close together and just shoot high or low.

Those SXS's go all over the paper, but in the pattern as I described. Again, this isn't carved in stone, but is a well founded generalization.

For some reason, SXS's are more sensitive to different bullet design and composition within the same bullet weight than are O/U's. I have no idea why. Maybe its just my own particular experience and not necessarily so, in general.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: luv2safari]
      #7284 - 23/01/04 03:11 AM

You both are right, and both are forgetting one thing that is unique to the O/U rifle, and that is the effect of one barrel being in line with the verticle, and horizontal axis of the rifle, and the other barrel being above that same axis! Each barrel reacts differently to garvity. What this means is the rifle recoils back, and up from the bottom barrel, just like the top barrel, but with far less muzzel rise, than the top barrel. This is something that is not a problem with a S/S, both barrels being at the same hight above the axis of horizontal, and verticle center of the rifle.

With the O/U this difference between the barrels, causes it's own set of problems, but only when regulateing, and it is true the change of bullet weight, in an O/U, is not as drastic a change to the regulation as it is with the S/S.

Suffice to say, they are too different animals, but both have their crosses to bear. There is no free lunch with either of them, both demand some knowledge, on the part of the owner, to be useful !

I have both, but I prefere the S/S, to the O/U, for hunting anything that bites back!




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Hauptjäger
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #7306 - 23/01/04 02:03 PM

First I do not own an o/u rifle, but I shoot an o/u shotgun, and I love it and would love to have an o/u rifle!
That being said, it seems to me that if you can move past the “mystic” of the s/s double, than their should be no problem using an o/u. I will admit that I like the look of the s/s and when I think of classic doubles s/s is the way to go. But at the end of the day it’s all about 1. What feels good, and 2. You can afford. O/u’s are usually cheaper. If possible, I would go for the double trigger model.


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luv2safari
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7309 - 23/01/04 04:23 PM

While I'll always prefer the Classic SXS on esthetic terms, the O/U is a bit easier for me to tame with a variety of loads. You have called it right on target about both quirky types of doubles.

I was making generalizations about the basic characteristics...wouldn't turn down either configuration!

The biggest disadvantage to the O/U is it gets top heavy as it gets bigger, and is a real bitch to get a shell chambered into that bottom chamber when running...at or away!! They have to be opened up sooo darned far, unlike a SXS. A 375 is about as big as I think is practicle in an O/U.

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4seventy
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7312 - 23/01/04 05:25 PM

In reply to:

With the O/U this difference between the barrels, causes it's own set of problems, but only when regulateing, and it is true the change of bullet weight, in an O/U, is not as drastic a change to the regulation as it is with the S/S.



Mac, I think you have forgotten an important point here.
Every double rifle is an individual!
Some are more forgiving than others, both SxS and O/U.
I've seen SxS and O/U doubles which would shoot a variety of different bullet weights well.
On the other hand I've seen O/U doubles which will go right off the paper (shooting apart) at 50 yards with a change in bullet weight.

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4seventy
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: luv2safari]
      #7316 - 23/01/04 06:35 PM

In reply to:

The biggest disadvantage to the O/U is it gets top heavy as it gets bigger, and is a real bitch to get a shell chambered into that bottom chamber when running...at or away!! They have to be opened up sooo darned far, unlike a SXS. A 375 is about as big as I think is practicle in an O/U.



The top heavyness depends much on what depth and style of action is used, what type of stock and forend is used, and also if a scope is fitted.

Big O/U doubles don't have to be top heavy.
I've handled a trim little open sighted O/U in 500 Nitro which had no top heavyness at all and ballanced beautifully.
Kicked well though!

If you are having trouble loading the bottom chamber while running perhaps you should try a different loading technique.
I don't find the O/U style any slower or harder than SxS to load the chambers.

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Chasseur
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: 4seventy]
      #7324 - 24/01/04 03:23 AM

All double are individuals I think. My SxS 9.3x74r will regulate good groups with both 232 bullets and 286 bullers. I believe it was regulated with the new Norma oryx 286s, but with the 286 norma alaskan's while the point of aim shifts a bit and the group opens up, its still a useful hunting group (2-3 1/2" at 100y), same with the 232 vulcans. Not a big deal to adjust the scope and she's ready to go.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: 4seventy]
      #7328 - 24/01/04 03:58 AM

In reply to:

If you are having trouble loading the bottom chamber while running perhaps you should try a different loading technique.
I don't find the O/U style any slower or harder than SxS to load the chambers.



Loading technique can,almost always, be improved on, but that will not overcome the loading drawbacks of the O/U double rifle, when compaired to a S/S! What I mean by this is, improvement depends on the way you load both. If one needs improveing, they usually both do! If you are loading one barrel at a time,a handicap with either type, then you will not have a real problem with the O/U, that you will not have with the S/S. However if your drill lets you load both barrels simultaneously, then the O/U has some serious draw backs.

The S/S double can easily be loaded both barrels simultaneously, by haveing two rounds between the first, and second, and second, and third fingers of the forehand. The cartridges are carried with the primers up, with bullets hanging down when holding the rifle for the first two shots. when the chambers cleared, the left hand is then turned to have the palm down, fingers folded up like to make a loose fist. This points both cartridges forward so both bullet ends can slide into the chambers at the same time, the right hand never leaving the pistol grip. The fact is, if the barrels are S/S, this makes gravity holds the cartridges bullet end,out in front of the hand, with the primer end up against the palm of the hand, very steady!

This can be tried with an O/U, but the cartridges tend to wander in different dirrections when the hand is held with the palm faceing the left side of the rifle, gravity makeing the cartridges want to fall together, and roll between the fingers. One is better off loading one barrel at a time with the O/U!

I have to say here, this only works if you have no injury to the left hand. This is the way I've re-loaded my doubles for many years, but last year I had some cancer surgery to my left hand,and arm, leaving me to find a different way to re-load quickly. I haven't had time to find a better way to load, since my left hand was damaged. It worries me some, because loading a double, one round at a time, is much slower.



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"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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luv2safari
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7339 - 24/01/04 06:26 AM

You are absolutely right about the axis of the O/U and barrel rise difference. The top barrel tends to rise more with heavier bullets and less with lighter bullets, while the bottom barrel exhibits less of this tendancy. POI does open up verticaly.

I just now tried some hot 250 gr Nosler ballistic tips, then slow 320gr Woodleigh protected point rounds in the same gun, a Merkel 204, regulated for RWS 285 gr.They shoot : bottom -right on & top 1.2" at 1 'o clock.The Noslers chrono at 2420 fps, Woodleighs at 2090 fps. The horizontal didn't change. Here is what did happen at 80 yards...regulated range. (I let the barrels cool, action open for 20 min. after each 2 shot series; ambient temp 36 degrees F):

1. the 250's bottom barrel shot 2" low, and the top barrel shot about right on...maybe 1" high.

2. the Woodleigh 320's bottom barrel shot 3" high, and the top shot 7" high.

I'll try the same test in my Tikka that is regulated for the 320 Woodleighs...using 250, 270, and several different 285-286 gr loads...some factory and some handloads. I will try RWS 285, Norma Oryx 286, and S&B 286.



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4seventy
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7346 - 24/01/04 07:48 AM

In reply to:

Loading technique can,almost always, be improved on, but that will not overcome the loading drawbacks of the O/U double rifle, when compaired to a S/S! What I mean by this is, improvement depends on the way you load both. If one needs improveing, they usually both do!



The O/U will only have loading drawbacks if the reloader is using the wrong technique.

The "cartridges between the fingers" method may look macho but it is not necessarily the best way to do it, for SxS or O/U.

I gave up the Stewart Granger/Peter Capstick style of loading years ago as I found a much improved way to do it!

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luv2safari
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: 4seventy]
      #7366 - 24/01/04 11:36 AM

From what I hear, Capstick and Granger got loaded all the time...fast. They both developed a technique unequaled to this day for droping down two bottles quickly.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: 4seventy]
      #7369 - 24/01/04 11:40 AM

In reply to:

as I found a much improved way to do it!




Like blood from a stone!

You've hinted at it several times, TELL US!




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4seventy
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: luv2safari]
      #7370 - 24/01/04 11:43 AM

In reply to:

From what I hear, Capstick and Granger got loaded all the time...fast. They both developed a technique unequaled to this day for droping down two bottles quickly



HeeHee, yeah the buggers!

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4seventy
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #7372 - 24/01/04 11:48 AM

In reply to:


You've hinted at it several times, TELL US!



Nitro, all in good time ol'mate, all in good time!
Or as Sir Humphrey would say, "In the fullness of time Minister"!

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NE450No2
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7380 - 24/01/04 01:00 PM

The best way I have found to reload a double rifle, or any rifle for that matter, is to carry extra ammo in a buttstock shell carrier. Then as you need to reload just "pluck" a round from the shell carrier with your "trigger" hand and stick it in the chamber[or magazine as the case may be].
On hard kickers just be sure and use a buttstock carrier that has leather around the wood of the stock so that your face is not cut. Been there and done that.
Check out www.murrayleather.com Good stuff.

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4seventy
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Re: Valmet 412 and Tikka 512 Double rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7386 - 24/01/04 01:35 PM

Dug 1,
I must admit to getting a bit of a chuckle with this one!

In reply to:

This can be tried with an O/U, but the cartridges tend to wander in different dirrections when the hand is held with the palm faceing the left side of the rifle, gravity makeing the cartridges want to fall together, and roll between the fingers. One is better off loading one barrel at a time with the O/U!




You have just described how your SxS method of loading both the O/U chambers does not work very well, true?

Part of my original statement was.......

" perhaps you should try a different loading technique".

My point being that it may not be a fault of the O/U but really a fault with the technique used to load the O/U!

Perhaps if you don't want to take my advice on doubles you may prefer to take some of your own.

Like regarding SxS & O/U chamber loading......

"Loading technique can,almost always, be improved on"
and
"If one needs improveing, they usually both do"!

Good advice indeed!



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