Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Cased pair of Howdah pistols

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)
Nordmann
.300 member


Reged: 05/07/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Denmark
Cased pair of Howdah pistols
      #232406 - 13/07/13 01:47 AM

Yesterday I bought this cased pair of fabulous Howdah pistols out of one of my clients private collections. I have been after them for some time. Every dog has its day!

http://www.jamesedition.com/lifestyle-co...(london)-687902

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #232419 - 13/07/13 07:58 AM

Excellent! - Truly a magnificent pair of pistols

I could not get to Holt's last month, but there was a Cased Pair of Purdey Howdah pistols which I would have loved to have seen

TH44


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Nordmann
.300 member


Reged: 05/07/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Denmark
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: TH44]
      #232421 - 13/07/13 08:06 AM

T444 they had no finish. well worn and Ģ21K plus comm. Remember Purdey's were really nothing special in 1845, still wet behind the ears, Manton and Tatham could both teach them a thing or two back then.

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #232422 - 13/07/13 08:10 AM


Nordmann

People forget that about Purdey's, Holland's etc
and just "buy the name".


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mike_Bailey
.400 member


Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: 500Nitro]
      #232443 - 13/07/13 06:16 PM

Nordmann, those are superb ! best, Mike

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #232458 - 14/07/13 03:05 AM

Beautiful! Absolutely stunning condition. .650" would shoot the standard patched ball meant for the Baker and Ferguson rifles. Well done.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39063
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: DarylS]
      #232503 - 15/07/13 12:53 AM



Credit: A post from the "Society of Gentlemen Adventurers", Mark van den Boogaart
From Leeds Royal Armoury, the Hunting section - top floor

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39063
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: NitroX]
      #232505 - 15/07/13 01:19 AM

Extremely Fine & Rare Cased Pair of Henry Tatham Howdah Pistols (London), 1845



A splendid and very rare cased pair of rifled howdah pistols by Henry Tatham, 37 Charing Cross, London, circa 1845. Gun and Pistol maker to the Royal family.



In their original case with coloured maker's trade label. Barrels retain 95% original bright stripy browning. Bores are bright with strong rifling. Triggerguards display most bright "peacock" bluing. The finely checkered select walnut stocks exhibit a startling 98%+ original varnish. The locks, hammers, and hinged buttcaps are finely engraved and have considerable colour hardening throughout. Stirrup rammers are crisp. Accessories include original key, rod with jags, and box of caps. Silver thumbpieces with owner's initials. 65 calibre barrels are 5 inches to patent breeches and pistols measure 12.75 inches overall.



Rifled percussion howdah pistols are very rare and this set by one of London's very best makers represents a rare opportunity for the discerning collector of fine English guns.



The howdah pistol was a large-calibre handgun, often with two or four barrels, used in India and Africa from the beginning of the nineteenth century, and into the early twentieth century, during the period of British Colonial rule. It was typically intended for defence against tigers, lions, and other dangerous animals that might be encountered in remote areas. Multi-barreled breech loading designs were later favoured over the original muzzle loading designs for Howdah pistols, because they offered faster reloading than was possible with contemporary revolvers,which had to be loaded and unloaded through a gate in the side of the frame.



The term "howdah pistol" comes from the howdah, a large platform mounted on the back of an elephant. Hunters, especially during the period of the British Raj in India, used howdahs as a platform for hunting wild animals and needed large-calibre side-arms for protection from animal attacks. The practice of hunting from the howdah basket on top of an Asian elephant was first made popular by the joint Anglo-Indian, East Indian Company during the 1790s. These earliest howdah pistols were flintlock designs, and it was not until about 60 years later percussion models in single or double barrel congfiguration were seen. By the 1890s and early 1900s cartridge firing and fully rifled howdah pistols were in normal everyday use.


Photo credit: A post from the "Society of Gentlemen Adventurers", Mark van den Boogaart
From Leeds Royal Armoury, the Hunting section - top floor


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 10:31 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39063
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: NitroX]
      #232506 - 15/07/13 01:25 AM

Nordman,

The above post is what would be copied to the Archive forum.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Nordmann
.300 member


Reged: 05/07/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Denmark
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: NitroX]
      #232512 - 15/07/13 06:02 AM

Perfect!

Go for it Nitroxx

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #232532 - 15/07/13 03:03 PM

Beautiful pistols. Museum quality for sure.

Regarding Manton's, they have again appeared im London. I have often before why they went completely out of the gun business?. There seem to be a little branche left in Calcutta, but it is a rather insignificant affair.

Thanks for sharing Nordmann.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3518
Loc: Colorado
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: rigbymauser]
      #232550 - 16/07/13 12:05 AM

What makes a gun a "howdah pistol" rather than an "Officer's pistol" or "Traveler's pistol"?
I thought howdah pistols generally had features such as belt clips or a ring on the grip cap which make sense when in a howdah.
Is there a reason these are not referred to as "Howdah pistols"?

http://www.jamesdjulia.com/auctions/catalog_detail_shots.asp?Details=48713&sale=135

http://www.arbourantiques.co.uk/2010/firearms/joseph-lang-officers-pistols-sold/

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Huvius]
      #232575 - 16/07/13 09:29 AM

Huvius - I have thought long and hard about this subject since first viewing the post

I have not posted before because of Nordmann's obvious and well deserved enthusiasm

These are a pair of best, museum quality "Officer's", Gentleman's" or 'Traveller's" pistols from a top class London Gunmaker,
that may well, had the owner been in India, used as "Howdah" pistols

I have six double barrelled pistols, of which 3 or 4 could be considered "Howdah" pistols

I have an almost identical (in size and style) pistol by Wilson of London which is a "Gentleman's" pistol

I paid a lot of money for a "Baby Howdah" (posted somewhere here) in .500 X 1.5 " that is, on reflection a transition cartridge pistol before revolvers superseded them



These are, in my opinion, examples of "Howdah" pistols, barrels 8 - 11+ inches long, overall length 16 - 18 inches

This post is in no way intends to denigrate the excellent pair of pistols you have , just to follow Huvius' comment

TH44

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 10:33 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Igorrock
.400 member


Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1635
Loc: Finland
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: TH44]
      #232580 - 16/07/13 01:59 PM

I do not own any "Howdah" pistol, but IMO in the beginning they have been weapons like todays "bank robbery specials" ie. shotguns whose stock and barrel has been shortened. Thatīs why I think a real Howdah should be quite a big and robust double barrel gun. Later those factory made "Officer's", Gentleman's" or "Traveller's" pistols has been, more or less, used same way as the original ones.





Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 10:35 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Nordmann
.300 member


Reged: 05/07/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Denmark
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: TH44]
      #232594 - 16/07/13 06:49 PM

TH44

You are of course correct, but..your entry could also read:-

"These are a pair of best, museum quality howdah pistols from a top class London Gunmaker,
that may well, had the owner been in England, used as "Officer's", Gentleman's" or 'Traveller's" pistols"

Do you get my point?

They are:- Just a killer pair of London made double barreled pistols, flat new in the original makers case...in original (not refurbished) mint condition...how does that sound?

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3518
Loc: Colorado
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #232605 - 16/07/13 11:32 PM

Quote:

TH44

You are of course correct, but..your entry could also read:-

"These are a pair of best, museum quality howdah pistols from a top class London Gunmaker,
that may well, had the owner been in England, used as "Officer's", Gentleman's" or 'Traveller's" pistols"

Do you get my point?

They are:- Just a killer pair of London made double barreled pistols, flat new in the original makers case...in original (not refurbished) mint condition...how does that sound?




This is precisely why I posed the question of - what makes a howdah pistol a howdah pistol.
Did any makers specify in their ledgers that a particular gun was a howdah pistol or was the term even in use in period?
How do the big auction houses differentiate between the two? They certainly seem to so must have some criteria.

As for these particular pistols, I would think that they have been refinished sometime simply because the condition of the guns far exceeds the condition of the case interior. The case lining in the lid is newer than that in the base as you can see.
Also, the brass wedge keeper is much too shiny to not have been refinished. Perhaps the wood has been redone leaving the metal in original condition.
Beautiful weapons all the same.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Nordmann
.300 member


Reged: 05/07/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Denmark
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Huvius]
      #232610 - 17/07/13 02:14 AM

Huvlus..

The material on the inside lid is original. Why would the material on the inside of a lid get damaged, faded, worn or covered in stains?

The brass has not been cleaned...is not brass its white brass..German silver, nickel silver whatever you wish to call it.

The wood is not refinished, not re checkered, not cracked, no re varnished, not dented or chipped, and certainly never re stocked.

Its very easy to comment on something you have not seen in your own hands with your own eyes, and that you don't own and probably never will.

IN MY QUALIFIED & PROFESSIONAL OPINION THE PISTOLS ARE EXHIBITION QUALITY AS PREVIOUSLY REPRESENTED


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Igorrock
.400 member


Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1635
Loc: Finland
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #232614 - 17/07/13 04:39 AM

Quote:

Its very easy to comment on something you have not seen in your own hands with your own eyes, and that you don't own and probably never will.


If you open a new topic to showcase yours weapons, itīs quite normal that people here will discus what they see and not always only admiring that. Some of those commentators have very long experience and good knowledge of old and rare weapons. Thatīs why I comprehend their comments, though these comments arenīt always positive.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Edited by Igorrock (17/07/13 02:15 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3518
Loc: Colorado
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #232615 - 17/07/13 04:44 AM

Quote:

Huvlus..

The material on the inside lid is original. Why would the material on the inside of a lid get damaged, faded, worn or covered in stains?

The brass has not been cleaned...is not brass its white brass..German silver, nickel silver whatever you wish to call it.

The wood is not refinished, not re checkered, not cracked, no re varnished, not dented or chipped, and certainly never re stocked.

Its very easy to comment on something you have not seen in your own hands with your own eyes, and that you don't own and probably never will.

IN MY QUALIFIED & PROFESSIONAL OPINION THE PISTOLS ARE EXHIBITION QUALITY AS PREVIOUSLY REPRESENTED




Quote:

Huvlus..

The material on the inside lid is original. Why would the material on the inside of a lid get damaged, faded, worn or covered in stains?

The brass has not been cleaned...is not brass its white brass..German sil




There is quite a bit of wear on the vertical surfaces of the dividers which indicate that there must have been loose items stowed in those compartments which are not there now. One would expect that there would be commensurate wear to the interior of the lid if, again IF, the case was ever stowed in a position other than flat.
There are pressure spots on the interior surface of the lid that do not correlate with the dividers and compartments of the case.
There are stains on the label which do not communicate to the surrounding lining material.
The worn areas on the label from the hammer pivot screws reveal bright blue liner beneath where one would expect to see worn and darkened liner material.

Although I obviously have never held these pistols in my hand "and probably never will", there is enough to see in the pictures which should raise honest questions about what once accompanied the pistols which is not presently there. Why?

How would a cased pair of guns somehow emerge after some 160+/- years in nearly perfect condition yet the interior of the original case display such wear?

No, I am not going to quit my day job.
It affords me the ability to buy my guns from somebody other than you...

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Nordmann
.300 member


Reged: 05/07/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Denmark
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Huvius]
      #232618 - 17/07/13 08:07 AM

Huvlus

In answer to your most interesting but utterly baseless concerns I offer the following facts rather than mistaken observations and opinions seemingly to arise from dare I say a degree of envy?

The case is missing the powder flask and the bullet mould. Interestingly enough the cleaning rod and original key are present. Staining on a trade label is quite common both from oil adhering to the locks as well as humidity which can cause the nitric acid used in manufacture of paper in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries to yellow and discolor the linen or rag fibers over time.

Unlike so-called "French" casings which grip the pistols and their accessories securely, partition type or "English" style casings allow pistols to rub against and indeed often detach the partitions when the case is carried in any other than a flat position. Even mild jostling can result in tearing of lining or broken dividers.

The pistols themselves, which are the main point of discussion, remain in remarkable, pristine condition throughout with all finishes including blueing, browning, casehardening, and varnish original and nearly as intact as when they left Henry Tathum's premises at 37 Charing Cross 175 years ago. A delight to the eye these beautiful examples of the apogee of the percussion gunmaker's art are certain to please the most discriminating collector of English pistols or aficionado of fine antique firearms in general.

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #232622 - 17/07/13 08:39 AM

The last few posts are the exact reason I thought long and hard about posting earlier, and probably on reflection, should not have done so. I had just prepared a full page post on the subject but most of it is informed opinion from my own experience so it is better left.

My apologies to all concerned

TH44


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3518
Loc: Colorado
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: TH44]
      #232627 - 17/07/13 11:16 AM

I clearly should have kept my opinions and questions to myself as well.
If anybody else has insight as to my questions about what "makes" a Howdah pistol (and if any features would preclude a gun from being a Howdah) I would genuinely like to hear.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Nordmann
.300 member


Reged: 05/07/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Denmark
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Huvius]
      #232632 - 17/07/13 08:43 PM

I accept that what is supreme to my way of thinking may not be to someone else. Thus, the question of "best" and "original" can never be resolved here...

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jaz
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #233954 - 10/08/13 09:26 PM

Howdah = big money
Travelers or Gentlemans = less money
The features of these are not correct for a true Howdah pistol. Could it have been used - yes, but probably not.
Most notable here is the fact they "were purchased out of a collection" - but are now for sale at a rather inflated price.
This post was an advertisement.
Nordman - I see you advertise quite a few guns on Guns International - in my opinion they are priced at three to four times what their value should be.
To troll for someone with more money than brains is not an admirable but understandable.
This has nothing to do with jealousy. This forum is here for enjoyment, to learn, teach, and trade ideas.If you post something, it is up for discussion, whether it is criticism or praise.
I 100% agree with Huvius


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5268
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: jaz]
      #233957 - 10/08/13 10:09 PM

I don't know whether these are "original finish" or not. From the photos I would opine that the barrels are re-browned because there appears to be more aging of the locks than the barrels. The wood finish is rather shiney as well, raising questions in my mind.

However, these are interpretations of not-so-good photos. That is no substitute for inspecting the weapons in-hand. I say this more as an observation of the photography and not as a judgment of the items themselves.

Certainly the comments of other members are fair. Nobody but Nordmann has held these pistols. The pistols are not on trial, but this is fundamentally a discussion forum.

I am very thankful to have these displayed. They are beautiful and rare. It is not often we have the opportunity to see photos of such fine pieces, let alone have the opportunity to hold such items. Thanks for placing them here for display.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)



Extra information
1 registered and 132 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 31031

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved