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dnovo
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Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
What is it worth?
      #102579 - 16/04/08 09:48 AM

I give up trying to figure out what a given DR is actually worth in the current market. I have a nice conversation with someone at BassPro who admits that they are no doubt buried in a rifle I am interested in, suggests that I wait for it to sit around for a while, and then calls to say that another store just called him to say send the rifle, they had a buyer at the silly price they listed on the Net. So go figure.

This was just posted at the Cabela's site, with the usual excellent photos and a decent description from one of the stores where they know a fair amount about DRs:

" W. J. Jeffrey Boxlock in .400 Express

# Cal./Gauge: .400 Express
# Barrel(s): 24 Inches
# Weight: 10 Lbs 10 Ozs
# Sights/Scope: One Fixed, Three Leaf Express Rear Sight , Ramped Bead Front
# Trigger(s): Double
# Stock: Exhibition Grade Circassian walnut
# Stock Dimensions: 14 3/8 " LOP
# Butt/Pad: Engraved Steel
# Bore Condition: Excellent
# Extras: Makers Case
W. J. Jeffrey Boxlock in .400 Express. Built on the rare scallop-back "Leonard"action. 24" Chopper lump barrels with excellent bores. 100% London deep scroll engraving with 70% faded case colors. Barrels, trigger guard, floor plate and top lever are at 80% remaining charcoal blue. All screws indexed and perfect. Includes makers case.
Price: $49999.00

(Here is the link: www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun_inventory/inventory/buda/fine_rifle/983992_jeff400_bud.jsp?hierarchyId=10473

The wood looks very, very nice and the rifle appears to be as described, but 50K for a boxlock in a 400 Express? Am I missing something here? And no, I am not in the market for this rifle, just musing on the market and prices.

Your thoughts all? Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (16/04/08 09:51 AM)

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1980E26
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Reged: 03/05/05
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: dnovo]
      #102581 - 16/04/08 10:06 AM

Dave,

As you know it's not worth anything close to what they are asking. Maybe $18-19K max.
They must be smoking some really good stuff at Cabelas.


Corbin

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500Nitro
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: 1980E26]
      #102583 - 16/04/08 10:28 AM



GULP.

They don't even say whether it is an Ejector
although it looks like it is.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: 1980E26]
      #102584 - 16/04/08 10:34 AM

Wow! $50k for a rifle with little finish remaining on the action, thin finish on the barrels, and the stock heavily refinished.

I suppose he thinks those screws under the forearm are "perfect" and "indexed".

Top that off with a non-matching case that appears to be made for a shotgun, certainly not this rifle. The barrels are just lost in that recess!

Whew! Don't get me wrong, I would enjoy having that rifle, but at that price and in that condition it doesn't have my name on it.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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bouldersmith
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: CptCurl]
      #102585 - 16/04/08 10:45 AM

well under 20K in my book, nice....but not that nice. They will hold that one a long time for 50K.
Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com

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500Nitro
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #102586 - 16/04/08 11:02 AM



If it's an Ejector, I think it is the best of the best that Jeffrey made (Leonard) but WAY over the top at 50k.

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Anonymous
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #102588 - 16/04/08 12:13 PM

Quote:



If it's an Ejector, I think it is the best of the best that Jeffrey made (Leonard) but WAY over the top at 50k.




It has ejectors.

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xausa
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: dnovo]
      #102594 - 16/04/08 01:48 PM

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a .400 Express? COTW lists only one cartridge as a ".400", and that is not an Express. I have never heard of a .450/.400 referred to in any other way. If that is what is meant, then is it the 3" or the 3 1/4" version? (Or for that matter the 2 3/8" version?)

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Huvius
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #102596 - 16/04/08 02:01 PM

Quote:

well under 20K in my book, nice....but not that nice. They will hold that one a long time for 50K.



That's what I was thinking.
Makes you wonder just how any retailer can be such a poor judge of a gun's value and get so buried in a gun like this. Not knocking it, good gun, but not in the same league as a high end sidelock of the same price.
Can't imagine with a budget of $50K, this would be on anybody's list.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Anonymous
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: xausa]
      #102597 - 16/04/08 02:02 PM

Quote:

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a .400 Express? COTW lists only one cartridge as a ".400", and that is not an Express. I have never heard of a .450/.400 referred to in any other way. If that is what is meant, then is it the 3" or the 3 1/4" version? (Or for that matter the 2 3/8" version?)




X,

Look at the barrel flats, its a 400 Jeffery NE = 450/400 3" Its a 400 grain bullet, 55 grains cordite. Fabulous cartridge.

This may be one of Keiths rifles now that I have had time to think about it. Yep I bet it is given where the gun came from.. Hmmm.. It would justify the pricing.

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BigFiveJack
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: ]
      #102612 - 16/04/08 03:40 PM

If Pres. T. Roosevelt owned it I

would not consider it at over 25K.

With less note worthy former owners,

under 20K. Besides, it's too darn

HEAVY! Just one man's opinion.

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: What is it worth? [Re: ]
      #102624 - 16/04/08 11:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a .400 Express? COTW lists only one cartridge as a ".400", and that is not an Express. I have never heard of a .450/.400 referred to in any other way. If that is what is meant, then is it the 3" or the 3 1/4" version? (Or for that matter the 2 3/8" version?)




X,

Look at the barrel flats, its a 400 Jeffery NE = 450/400 3" Its a 400 grain bullet, 55 grains cordite. Fabulous cartridge.

This may be one of Keiths rifles now that I have had time to think about it. Yep I bet it is given where the gun came from.. Hmmm.. It would justify the pricing.



Agree with Sinner/Death by 600 (which do you prefer?) as to the cartridge. One of the all time best and now undergoing a well-deserved revival. However, given the condition of this gun, I respectfully disagree as to value based on provenance.

Keith was a great writer and apparently one of a kind. But would you really pay that much just to have a 'ridden hard and put away wet' and then redone rifle? And how does one establish provenance? I will defer to your knowledge on this, but when it is time to sell or pass this rifle on to the next generation, how does one give it an appropriate history.

It may well be that Keith left a list with serial #s of his rifles. I have seen at least one WR 476NE listed as ex-Keith, and I know he was a great fan of that cartridge and WR, but the seller had nothing other than his opinion to back the claim.

Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3533
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: dnovo]
      #102625 - 16/04/08 11:41 PM

Remember though, Elmer Keith was a writer and in contact with a lot of enthusiasts and dealers in that time. He was famous for returning correspondance to those who wrote him.
He also bought, sold and traded a lot of guns. In fact, he bought a Westley Richards from my great uncle. I'm not thinking that a rifle passing through the ownership of Keith gives it "provenance". If it had been a favorite of his, hunted with it, wrote about it, then maybe it would be worth 20-50% more, but not more than double the price!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by Huvius (17/04/08 07:43 AM)

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: What is it worth? [Re: Huvius]
      #102627 - 17/04/08 12:46 AM

If this is the Keith rifle I remember, which I believe it is, I think they are probably in it around $30,000.00 - $35,000.00 given there margins. They did a big trade and took this gun in with several others to move some hi dollar inventory. Namely my old Purdey 45-70 and my old pair of Boss 20 bores. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying its worth $50,000.00 to everyone, but if they have excellent docs on it, and it carries a rich history, then I could see this selling at auction for in the low 40's fairly easy.

Elmer was loved and respected by many of the worlds elite hunters and collectors. The Jeffery cartridge was a known favorite of his as well.

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bwanakim
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: ]
      #102636 - 17/04/08 03:05 AM

But if it WAS one of old Elmer's guns, why don't they advertise it as such? Without the proof, how can it be worth that? Even though many here have said the Cabela's people are knowledgeable, that has not been my experience, or at least I haven't spoken to those particular stores. I would hate to be the one owning this "treasure" when the music stopped, and no chairs were left!

After my bitter experience with the Raick Erigis I started a thread about several weeks ago, I'm getting out of this for a while--it's too dangerous. To paraphrase Mencken, the big dealers have decided that no one ever went broke underestimating the gullibility of the prospective double gun buyer. They've cynically decided to make hay while the sun shines. After my refund check clears, I'll have more to say about the Raick--pronounced (quite accurately) --"Wreck." I trust NONE of these people--they either know nothing, or are charlatans of the first order!

--------------------
bwanakim

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dnovo
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Posts: 490
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: bwanakim]
      #102637 - 17/04/08 03:16 AM

Okay, I will assume that it is indeed an ex-Keith gun. While I have had some disagreements with Sinner/Death in the past, it was not based on his knowledge of DRs or the 'who's who' of 'what's what' out there (no, I am not being cute, I mean it.) But even assuming that it IS an ex-Keith, is it really worth the extra value just for that? Someone earlier said, "I wouldn't pay that for an ex-TR gun." Well, that's a bit much, as there are TR collectors out there who will buy anything TR, gun-related or not. But Keith owned a lot of guns, and the 'value added' by his ownership would not seem to be that important. I have seen a fair number of other gun writers/editors guns advertised of late (including a John Amber) and they seem to sit on dealer's 'shelves' even at moderately higher prices with little or no general bites.

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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Anonymous
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: bwanakim]
      #102638 - 17/04/08 03:26 AM

Quote:

But if it WAS one of old Elmer's guns, why don't they advertise it as such? Without the proof, how can it be worth that? Even though many here have said the Cabela's people are knowledgeable, that has not been my experience, or at least I haven't spoken to those particular stores. I would hate to be the one owning this "treasure" when the music stopped, and no chairs were left!

After my bitter experience with the Raick Erigis I started a thread about several weeks ago, I'm getting out of this for a while--it's too dangerous. To paraphrase Mencken, the big dealers have decided that no one ever went broke underestimating the gullibility of the prospective double gun buyer. They've cynically decided to make hay while the sun shines. After my refund check clears, I'll have more to say about the Raick--pronounced (quite accurately) --"Wreck." I trust NONE of these people--they either know nothing, or are charlatans of the first order!




Excellent point though this wouldn't be the first time details were left out of the description. I have sold many hi end important guns to Cabelas, and they often leave the provenance out, I have no idea why.

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starwars
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: ]
      #102642 - 17/04/08 05:21 AM

100% correct. If that is a Keith double rifle it just might bring close to asking. I know a few people who wouldn’t mind having that gun in the 40 range if it checks out. It is a best grade Jeffery built on their action in the makers proprietary caliber. A very seldom seen item in todays market as you well know. In my opinion even if it wasn't Keith's at one time retail would be low to mid 30's.

bwanakim- WR pricing and treatment of customers from what I hear is not the best, that's to bad you got snookered to. I hate hearing that but it does match other peoples experiences. Didn't they get in trouble with the feds a while back if I recall?

--------------------
Richard

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500Nitro
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: starwars]
      #102644 - 17/04/08 06:16 AM


Star Wars

Just a quick question re your comment "It is a best grade Jeffery built on their action"

Who do you think built the gun ?

Leonard ?

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bwanakim
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #102648 - 17/04/08 07:23 AM

If they were to describe it as a Keith gun, and it turned out not to be, they would have breached an express warranty of description. That would give rise to a lawsuit, and if it's not one of his, then you'd have a considerable loss of value as the thing would become "damaged goods." As the subject ofd such a suit, it could be worth less than if they had just not said anything at all. It would be interesting to see if they would state--in writing--it was a Keith gun.

I feel sorry for old Elmer. From the sound of some of his letters, he was hard up a lot of the time. Imagine what he would think now--if only he could have gotten that kind of money for himself while he was still alive!

--------------------
bwanakim

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Huvius
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: bwanakim]
      #102649 - 17/04/08 07:46 AM

Quote:

I feel sorry for old Elmer. From the sound of some of his letters, he was hard up a lot of the time. Imagine what he would think now--if only he could have gotten that kind of money for himself while he was still alive!



Maybe so, but he paid about $600 (if I remember right) for the WR double he bought from my great uncle. He wrote him about how much he liked it. I'll see if I can find the letter and post a copy.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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bonanza
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Re: What is it worth? *DELETED* [Re: Huvius]
      #102656 - 17/04/08 09:31 AM

Post deleted by bonanza

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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BigFiveJack
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: bonanza]
      #102661 - 17/04/08 10:43 AM

Quote:

This rifle is -identical- the Jeffery 450 BLE that I paid $17,500.00 for.


WHEN ???

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

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470evans
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #102669 - 17/04/08 01:23 PM

If I remember correctly this was bought off GunsAmerica a year or so ago. If it sells for the asking price it was quite an investment.

The serial #, proof marks and Leonard # put it early, pre 1904. The engraving and action look very nice.

The price makes me happy I have a Jeffery 400

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Sarg
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Re: What is it worth? [Re: 470evans]
      #102675 - 17/04/08 04:34 PM

I,m just leaning here , but those barrels are shoe lump ? not chopper lump aren,t they ?
Less desirable also ?

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