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TennHillBilly
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Reged: 17/05/13
Posts: 69
Loc: Tennessee Plateau
regulating with laser bore sights?
      #262208 - 14/03/15 03:57 AM

As Winter's end draws near, my thoughts return of getting back to work on my project. Got to wondering if laser bore sights would be a practical way getting a good start on starting the regulating process. Maybe it has been done? Any thoughts? Bill

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AkMike
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #262210 - 14/03/15 07:06 AM

The laser won't work because of the barrel whip.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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DarylS
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: AkMike]
      #262220 - 14/03/15 11:29 AM

Laser bore alignment will certainly align the bore axis with each other if done properly, even to putting in a small amount of crossing, which will be necessary, but as Pedersoli found out, that has little to do with the actual regulation of the barrels. This is due to barrel whip, vibration and recoil along with being fired from one side of the centre line and then the other.

Only pure S--t House luck would have laser alignment work well - as in - DONE! - imho.

If enough guns are built in a given calibre of the exact same weight, design and fit and used excactly the same load, then perhaps a 'trend' would be observed and thus actual regulation could be plotted and the process shortened somewhat.

I am sure that is how the English guns are started in regulation - a fairly accurate estimate is made for the initial test, then the work starts from actually firing and adjusting as necessary, with wedges and re-soldering.


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TennHillBilly
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: DarylS]
      #262252 - 15/03/15 02:08 AM

Guess I should have been more specific. I meant only for the initial alignment. Agree, first firing back to traditional methods. Just thought it would be a quick way to set up the initial soldering/wedges, etc.

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DarylS
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #262258 - 15/03/15 03:19 AM

I don't see why not. Should be as accurate or more accurate than bore plug rods, but then, I've never done either. I did make breeches for a SXS muzzleloader - 30 years ago. That's as far as I got, then something shiny distracted me, I guess. No idea where they are now - doubt I still have them. LOL

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Birdhunter50
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: DarylS]
      #262311 - 15/03/15 11:35 PM

Mike is right, it won't work, I tried it right off the bat and it didn't help. Because of the gun's rotation and recoil, if you use laser pointers in the muzzles, the right barrel laser would have to be pointing low left and the left barrel would need to be low right in order for them to shoot together. How much depends on the caliber, the amount of recoil, barrel time, weight of projectile, etc.
Bob


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twobobbwana
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #262331 - 16/03/15 11:45 AM

It would be interesting to see the laser bore siter put in the bores of a double rifle AFTER you regulated it properly and see the correlation of the lasers on the target.

If enough data was gathered in this way perhaps the laser bore siters could be used to provide a "starting point" for regulation that is much closer to the finished product than an amateur regulator might otherwise achieve.

Those craftsmen who regulate doubles regularly would have arrived at the starting point for regulation out of familiarity and have a "formula" that would produce a very close starting point in order to cut down on time at the shooting bench, cartridges and recoil.


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Birdhunter50
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: twobobbwana]
      #262354 - 17/03/15 12:40 AM

Twobobb,
What I have found to be of great help is that I keep a notebook on each gun I regulate, and I put down the caliber, the barrel length, the load, and the final spread at the middle spacer and the front spacer. I also diagram the barrels showing measurements between each of the components that make up the barrel set, including the diameters of the barrels at different points. Even though I use this to help me get started, no two barrel sets are the same, they all vary somewhat.
When I want to turn a set of barrels down, I know what has worked in the past and I have a starting point for doing the new set. I'm sure the large companies have something similar, though they don't have to go through all these details. They have large profiling lathes that can turn down two barrels to exactly the same contour and change any measurement they want just by programing the machine to cut a different profile. Bob


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Birdhunter50
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #262355 - 17/03/15 12:57 AM

Bill,
If you want, I can maybe get you started off in the right direction. If you tell me what caliber and load you intend to use and the length of the barrels, I may be able to get you close on the regulating spread. For beginners I think it is best to use Ellis' method of making up temporary spacers out of aluminum and attach them with hose clamps to your barrels. The aluminum cuts much easier than steel so you can adjust the spreads easier. After you have it shooting to your satisfaction, then you can make steel spacers to replace the temporary ones.
It is perfectly safe to shoot the gun while it is hose clamped together, just as long as the breech end of the barrels are securely soldered into the monoblock and the forend hanger has been welded or soldered in. I shot one of my tightest groups with a 45-70 that was hose clamped together.
Two brothers were watching me as I took the gun out and got ready to shoot it, they laughed so hard I thought they might fall over, but they quit laughing when they saw the target. I was never quite able to duplicate that group when the steel spacers were soldered in. Bob


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TennHillBilly
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #262385 - 17/03/15 11:08 AM

I'm starting with 2 Remington 700 bbls., 26" (actually 300 mag). I will cut the chamber areas and rechamber to 30-40 Krag. I expect the final length to be 24"+/_. Right now I have some old original ammo with the heavier bullet than modern ammo, 200+ grns, I think. We're away from home right now so don't have it with me. I expect current production ammo would be a better choice for the regulating process. I looked at a Westley Richards site wherein they regulated in as few as 8 rds, and as many as 100!

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DarylS
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #262391 - 17/03/15 12:35 PM

How thick are the barrels going to be at the .300 mag. neck area. Even the shoulder location would have to be removed as it is larger than the base of a .30/40 Krag ctg. at .457" compared to .490" .300 mag. shoulder.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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zimhunter
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Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: DarylS]
      #262393 - 17/03/15 02:37 PM

I know you can't use lasers on double rifles cause I've read it on these forums many times. When I scoped my doubles (a Chapius 9.3x74r UGEX and a Merkel 8x57r) I sighted them in with a bore mounted Laserlyte in the right barrel. Both were within 2 inches at 50 yds of aiming point with both barrels. Actually got the Merkel much better fiddling with different loads. Chapius had Leupold VariX-III 1-5as did the Merkel. Mounts on the Chapuis were Ruger rings on custom ruger bases in rib, the Merkel had an MAK quick detachable mount fro Belguim. I believe the difficulty in regulating doubles is greatly overrated magic to impress customers with the exorbitant prices charged. I have owned 3 Valmets (of course I know they are O/U's) one a salesmans set with a complete set of all the barrels they made for them. All were easily regulated as they were meant to be from the factory. Convential SxS's are certainly more difficult to regulate but primarily because they have top and bottom ribs that must be soldered in and a wedge at front if they had adjusters as say the Valmet does they could be adjusted but would not look as good. I don't shoot SxS's very well do much better with single sighting plane guns. If SxS's were so super difficult to regulate how do they make so many so cheap SxS shotguns. And don't give the BS that they aren't rifles and shoot shot. If they did not shoot basically to the same impact no expert shot would use them and yet they have been used for years successfully.When I shoot a SXS on the pattern board I aim at the same point at the same distance with both barrels and count the shot and the disbursement inside the circle. I have never patterned one that did not shoot within the circles correctly. Using modern methods and steels there is absolutely no reason they could not build a successful SxS rifle inexpensively. But there has to be a market for them and while some on here think there is it obviously isn't. If you don't believe that why is the Colt Python no longer built or the Peacemaker. Ruger makes very good single actions but they don't demand the price a Peacemaker does. Yet I would venture the Peacemaker or the Python could easily be produced to compete with the Rugers if the market demanded it and you could prove it would return a profit. A pretty much perfect example of this is the Sabbati sold by Cabelas. It was about half the price of any other SxS big bore. But sales were absolutely ruined by the manner they successfully regulated some of them. I never read a single honest report that said they did not regulate to hunting accuracy with a single one of them. It was an appearance they did something less expensive to regulate some of them.The forums can take credit for totally killing the sales. Reminds me greatly of a man named Ralph Nader who totally destroyed the sales of an automobile by writing a book that did not honestly represent the automobile he hated so much. The book was 'Unsafe at any speed' (which it absolutely was not in any way) and the car was the Corvair by Chevrolet. I would personally been happy to own a Sabatti with the ground muzzle and used it in Africa. I really also liked the early Corvairs. Somehow millions have learned to drive rear engined air cooled horizontal opposed engined autos since before and after the Corvair. In point of fact I had one made of the 3 most popular. I had a Karmann Ghia Volkswagen,with Porsche running gear and brakes and a Corvair engine. Ran and drove exceptionally well. Also owned several Volkswagens and Porsches over the years

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Birdhunter50
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: zimhunter]
      #262412 - 18/03/15 12:26 AM

Zimhunter,
It is quite obvious that you have never regulated a double, all you did was tweek the loads on a couple of them to get the best results from two rifles that were already regulated by the factory.
Lets talk about the shotguns first. You claim that shotguns are regulated like double rifles, and to some degree you are correct. At the factory they set the barrels to superimpose two loads of shot, one over the other by making them converge and setting the muzzles at the same level while they are soldered together.
All the better made guns, and especially the better older guns, were set up to throw two patterns of shot to converge at a given distance. Light weight bird guns were most likely set to converge at 25 yards or so, and waterfowl guns were set to do the same at about 40 yards. They will still do that today, IF, you use shells of similar power and speed. If you have never patterned a shotgun that shot one barrel high and one low, then you have not done much work at the pattern board. I have shot many shotguns at a pattern board and have found a handfull that would not throw their patterns one over the other at any distance. In most cases these were the cheaper guns.
You are correct in saying that the cost of a good double is because they are difficult to get regulated, and to dispute that you offer up shotguns and Corvairs. I owned a Corvair motor one time, it was in a Harley trike frame. The motors were good enough, but only after you removed some of the Rube Goldburg cooling cowling. Much of the rest of the car was crap, and I never liked Ralph Nader either. He was a self promoting asshole!
Sabbati got in trouble, not because they made bad guns, but because they tried to fix the problem with a very crude way of altering the muzzles, then trying to pass them off as new and well regulated guns. Cabelas got into trouble along with them because they were not taking care of customers early on. They didn't really start to play fair till it was discovered and widely talked up, how widespread the problem really was.
To get back to your two doubles mentioned first, you said that they both shot within two inches at 50 yards. That's because they were well regulated to do so at the factory. You do not get the credit just because you tweaked the loads you shot in them. If you want to prove what a good regulator you really are, send me one of them and I will unsolder it for you and send it back. Then you can get some real firsthand experience in regulating a double. Till you have done at least one regulating job, please refrain from condemning those who have more experience at it than you do.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #262417 - 18/03/15 12:53 AM

Building "regulating handloads" and "building a set of regulating barrels" are different things.

Creating a set of "regulating handloads" is basically assuming the double rifle barrels are already regulated. The handloader is trying to match or find the bullet weight, powder weight, velocity etc that duplicates the original factory load used OR magically achieves the same results.

Regulating barrels is the process of test shooting and changing the wedges between the barrels until the right angles are achieved to shot parallel or meet at a given distance. A particular factory or handload is used as part of this process.

There are a number of gunsmiths and amateurs here on NE who have done this and do this. One of our moderators even says it is not that difficult ... for him and other talented persons maybe.

But if you have an adjustable barrel double rifle, it is a form of regulation still to make the manual adjustments to get it shooting properly. Same principles but far less difficulty.

Regulation of shotguns is of course FAR EASIER as the same precision is not required.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: zimhunter]
      #262419 - 18/03/15 01:01 AM

Quote:

.... could easily be produced to compete with the Rugers if the market demanded it and you could prove it would return a profit. A pretty much perfect example of this is the Sabbati sold by Cabelas. It was about half the price of any other SxS big bore. But sales were absolutely ruined by the manner they successfully regulated some of them. I never read a single honest report that said they did not regulate to hunting accuracy with a single one of them. It was an appearance they did something less expensive to regulate some of them.The forums can take credit for totally killing the sales.




I think you are on very thin ice here with the comments re honesty ....

But all the comment above proves is a lack of an ability to read actual forum posts over time, or ability to search for them. There was LOTS of evidence of the absolute crap way Sabatti or Cabellas went about trying to fix UN_SUCCESSFUL regulation attempts. Assuming those rifle were even regulated at all in the first place ...

The fact is it seems the company Sabatti listened and fixed up their act so that models produced since those problems seem to be adequate and good value.

Quote:

Reminds me greatly of a man named Ralph Nader who totally destroyed the sales of an automobile by writing a book that did not honestly represent the automobile he hated so much. The book was 'Unsafe at any speed' (which it absolutely was not in any way) and the car was the Corvair by Chevrolet. I would personally been happy to own a Sabatti with the ground muzzle and used it in Africa. I really also liked the early Corvairs. Somehow millions have learned to drive rear engined air cooled horizontal opposed engined autos since before and after the Corvair. In point of fact I had one made of the 3 most popular. I had a Karmann Ghia Volkswagen,with Porsche running gear and brakes and a Corvair engine. Ran and drove exceptionally well. Also owned several Volkswagens and Porsches over the years




BTW are you drunk with all this rambling on?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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zimhunter
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: NitroX]
      #262429 - 18/03/15 06:36 AM

Just about what I expected on this forum. Incidentally I don't drink. If I recall the comment was about using Lasers to regulate. And in the last 60 or so years I have patterned quite a few doubles but I will have to admit they were O/U's as I greatly prefer them to SxS's.We have a difference of opinion about doubles and they will probably stay that way, at least as far as I am concerned. They are greatly overpriced and overrated as to use. It's a romantic attachment generated by nostalgia about Africa in the early days. I expect the same type of response to this also. I really don't remember having to remove very much of anything from the Corvair engine in my Karmann Ghia. I merely used those three autos to show what an adverse press can do to a product. Somehow Volkswagon and Porsche didn't get tarred with the same brush and have been eminently successful. As to the honesty I read many comments on this and other forums that the guns so regulated actually shot the regulated ammunition well enough to hunt with but the rifle was returned because of the poor muzzle, I even heard some say they didn't like to be cheated with this shoddy workmanship, some returned them because they could not be regulated with their desired load. Most of the doubles I have known would only regulate with the original or close load. So be it.

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TennHillBilly
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: DarylS]
      #262435 - 18/03/15 09:06 AM

You may be correct as far as cutting below the neck. I'll have to wait until I get in the lathe. Right now, the monoblock (4140) is drilled to 5/8", so I have ample meat. If I have too small a chamber area.......well, buy a couple of blanks. It would have nice to use a 30-06 but Ellis doesn't recommend. I'm using an AyA 12ga.
Besides, good discussion going on. I personally am enamored with the lore of the double. I love the fun of building guns. I love pouring over pics of the H&H's and would love to own a classic '50's Rolls.
Besides, at 50 yds., how close do the bullets have to be to bring down a Buff? With the best regulated gun, what's the best group you Vets can shoot off-hand in quick succession?
Hell, let's keep the 'discussion' going!


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DarylS
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #262441 - 18/03/15 10:02 AM

Can't speak to a smokeless gun, but my DR in .58 round ball, was capable of putting 1" to 2" - between 2 deliberate offhand shots, right then left, at 50yards - open sights.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: zimhunter]
      #262444 - 18/03/15 10:57 AM

Quote:

Just about what I expected on this forum. Incidentally I don't drink.




Well that's one excuse then gone.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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TennHillBilly
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Reged: 17/05/13
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: NitroX]
      #262448 - 18/03/15 12:31 PM

I think 1-2" off-hand is pretty dang good.........actually damn good IMHO! One of my favorite shooters is a .54 Sharps 'paper cutter'. I feel the recoil from that more than my Ruger 1 in .416 Rigby. How would that gun print off a rest? Is this something you regulated? If I could achieve that in a first build, would I be proud!

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zimhunter
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #262452 - 18/03/15 02:56 PM

I didn't consider it an 'excuse' as I don't feel I need one for having my own opinion. But that's really not appropriate on this forum if you disagree with the norm it seems. I apologize to all for having a differing opinion.

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tinker
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: zimhunter]
      #262453 - 18/03/15 03:12 PM

There's opinion and there's experience.

There's sharing one's perspective and there's making an ass of oneself.


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zimhunter
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: tinker]
      #262454 - 18/03/15 03:30 PM

My opinion is based on my experience and I have no idea who you are or what your experience is but I will put mine up against it with no trepidation at all. I have achieved the response I expected when I entered the first post. I predicted it perfectly. This forum is totally predictable when it comes to Double rifles.

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tinker
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: zimhunter]
      #262455 - 18/03/15 03:36 PM

I didn't notice at first -- how many double rifles have you built.and/or how.many sets of double rifle barrels have you built and regulated?

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zimhunter
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Re: regulating with laser bore sights? [Re: tinker]
      #262458 - 18/03/15 04:35 PM

I have never built a double rifle nor have I ever regulated one. Never claimed I had. I have never cooked a roast beef either but recognize when one suits my palate. I have never built an automobile either but I can drive one. I have never written a book but know when I like one and can generally evaluate when it is well written. And on and on and on. If you have to have experience in something to voice your opinion I'm afraid most who post on here would be mute in many many cases about many things. It is a thoroughly predictable forum when it comes to double rifles. I have no idea what your experience is but I would gather from the tenor of your comment that you have built and regulated a double rifle and if so you are to be congratulated on an accompolishment not many have, but then not many build rifles at all,it's not exactly as common as auto mechanics is it. A lot more shoot them than build them but I guess they have no opinions about them or if they do don't voice them, or there would be more of us asses around. I would say your opinion typifies the type of person on this forum I am referring to. Of course that does not make you an ass.

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