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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Rhodes
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Reged: 20/09/11
Posts: 94
Loc: NQ, Australia
Double Rifle weights
      #233058 - 28/07/13 05:17 PM

Thought I might post this as a reference for anyone putting a double together for the first time. It may be something that is overlooked on a first build, getting the overall weight as light as possible (and in the right place) as well as managing the recoil of the chambering. It makes a big difference to the finished gun and how much you enjoy hunting with it.

Like everyone else I've trawled the used gun sites looking at weights of the old British Doubles and they seem to be all over the shop. Doubleriflejack and I touched on this in another post. John Hunter was a well known PH in Africa back in the day. He wrote in one of his books that his favourite gun was a Holland 500NE with 24" barrels that weighed 10lb 5oz.

John Taylor, another African hunter who needs no introduction also seemed to prefer guns that appeared light for caliber. These men wrote that they carried their rifles for a lot of miles and did little target shooting bar sighting in their rifles. Below is a table from John Taylor's book "African Rifles and Cartridges" from the late 1940's which shows the weights of Double Rifles from the various brit makers. The "New Weight" shows that they lightened their guns as new and better barrel steels became available.

RIFLE..................Normal Weight.................New Weight
Caliber................Double bbl.....................Double bbl
600NE..................16 to 18 lbs..................14 1/2 to 15 1/2 lbs
577NE..................12 1/2 to 14 lbs..............11 1/2 lbs
500NE..................11 1/2 to 12 lbs..............10 1/2 lbs
470NE..................11 to 11 1/2 lbs..............10 1/2 lbs
465NE..................10 3/4 to 11 1/4 lbs.........10 1/4 lbs
425WR..................11 lbs..........................10 1/2 lbs
450/400NE............10 to 10 1/2 lbs..............9 1/2 lbs
375 Mag................9 1/2 lbs......................8 3/4 lbs

He also mentioned that Holland built their 465NE to weigh 9lb 6oz when they had access to tungsten steel barrels. No doubt you'd know that you pulled the trigger when that one went off.

Please add any info which you feel may be of use. For those who've built doubles it would be useful to add barrel lengths and profiles you've used and final gun weight if you wish to share this info as a reference for others.

Rhodes

Edited by Rhodes (28/07/13 05:20 PM)

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Double Rifle weights [Re: Rhodes]
      #233060 - 28/07/13 05:47 PM

Rhodes

"looking at weights of the old British Doubles and they seem to be all over the shop"

That's because you are comparing weights of guns from
different eras.

Old guns, pre WW1 tended to be heavier.

ie Look at the Webley & Scott Screw Grip or PHV1
- and other doubles.

Up to a certain point, most had full length ribs.
After that, they seemed to go to Qtr ribs.

On weight, a heavier gun that is balanced is
better than a light gun that is not balanced
or is barrel heavy.


"600NE..................16 to 18 lbs..................14 1/2 to 15 1/2 lbs
577NE..................12 1/2 to 14 lbs..............11 1/2 lbs"

Too light for me.



Edited by 500Nitro (28/07/13 05:48 PM)

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Rhodes
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Reged: 20/09/11
Posts: 94
Loc: NQ, Australia
Re: Double Rifle weights [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233062 - 28/07/13 07:06 PM

500

You raise a good point on which era a gun was built. I should add that the OP wasn't meant as an opinion or a "what should be" more of what was happening at the time.

Here's where I put you on the spot though. Of the guns you've had exposure to, what weights do you think they should be. In particular the 450/400?

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Double Rifle weights [Re: Rhodes]
      #233070 - 28/07/13 10:20 PM

I think 9.5 lbs is fine for a 450/400.

--------------------


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"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

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"Yo! Mr. White"

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1297
Loc: France / Germany
Re: Double Rifle weights [Re: Rhodes]
      #233071 - 28/07/13 10:26 PM

Webley & Scott 577NE - 26 " barrels - 1909 - about 15 1/2 lbs : heavy rifle , lower recoil , i like !

A.Francotte 600NE - 24" barrels - 1926 - about 14 1/2 lbs : recoil with full load is stiff , but very good for hardening !


First of all i buy a rifle that i like , afterwards i weigh it !

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Double Rifle weights [Re: Rhodes]
      #233072 - 28/07/13 10:32 PM

Quote:

500
You raise a good point on which era a gun was built. I should add that the OP wasn't meant as an opinion or a "what should be" more of what was happening at the time.




Yes, understand. I just re read my post, it wasn't meant as a criticism even though it came across that way, I just meant to
explain one reason they were like that.

I'll answer the 2nd question separately.

Edited by 500Nitro (29/07/13 12:33 PM)

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Double Rifle weights [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233073 - 28/07/13 10:36 PM


Re weights, as said before, balance is very important,
a heavy gun feels lighter.

450/400 - 9.5 - 10 lbs. It is starting to get up there
if you start getting near 10.5 lbs or above.



grandveneur

14 1/2 lb 600 Nitro, jesus you are game !!!

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1297
Loc: France / Germany
Re: Double Rifle weights [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233075 - 28/07/13 10:51 PM

I just check it again : 6,5 kg are about 14 1/2 lbs ! I was the only one who buy it after two years of disposal !

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Rhodes
.275 member


Reged: 20/09/11
Posts: 94
Loc: NQ, Australia
Re: Double Rifle weights [Re: grandveneur]
      #233100 - 29/07/13 12:32 PM

Quote:

recoil with full load is stiff , but very good for hardening !






I like this.

500, you're good, your posts are never taken as criticism.

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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Double Rifle weights [Re: Rhodes]
      #233134 - 30/07/13 04:08 AM

My brother's .300wm is pretty stiff shooting at 7.5lbs

Edited by Ckhobart (30/07/13 04:12 AM)

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Double Rifle weights [Re: Rhodes]
      #233210 - 30/07/13 11:15 PM

How about the 450 Nitro Express 3 1/4 inch rifle, what should one of those weigh? I built my .405 Winchesters to weigh between 9 and 9 1/2 pounds and that seems to be about right. Bob

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twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Double Rifle weights [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #233246 - 31/07/13 10:47 AM

I think it stands to reason that, if a 375 H&H mag and a 450/.400 both generate 4000 ftlbs of energy then a weight of about 9 1/2 lbs should fit both !!?? This should relate to both double rifles and bolt guns..........afterall physics are physics !!!! A 9 1/2 lb .375 H&H is quite shootable therefore a 450/400 of the same weight should be equally so.

I would not expect much difference in weights between calibres generating similar ftlbs of energy e.g. .450/500, .450 NE, .465, .470........or 480gns @ 2,150 fps (?)

I'm sure the British gunmakers would have had a formula for the weight of each grouping of calibres/energies to recommend to a client..........but would defer to his instructions of course. I'm sure that somebody who was going to carry a double for the entire dry season and shoot 50 rounds out of it per year would want a "lighter" gun than somebody who shot 50 rounds out of it, in a lifetime, mostly target shooting from a bench/rests.

I agree with the comments about balance. Correct balance makes a heavy gun seem lighter and poor balance makes even a light gun a pig to carry.

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