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Setterguy
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Loc: Washington, USA
Winchester 21 DR in 45-70
      #199413 - 14/01/12 11:43 AM

I am starting a new post but actually it is continuation of my previous thread titled Optimal Load for a 45-70. That title was not really supportive of the content. So, anyone new can read the previous thread for background. I have progressed some on the barrels and the receiver is just beginning to be worked on. I have basically lost a year on building the receiver; disappointing! I have not posted pictures of the barrels as yet but will try with this post. Daryl helped last time but it is time I learned myself-------we will see if it works. I have titles and descriptions on the pictures so I hope they follow as well. Here goes---Bill


Winchester 21 20 ga barrels as a donor monobloc



45-70 barrels attached and filed to contour. Front forearm lug soldered inplace.



Breech end ruff chambered for 45-70. Needs to be faced, rim cut and extractors milled in.



45-70 barrels permanently in Win. 21 20 monobloc. Note breech end top must be milled to accept Birdhunter50's top rib. The entire barrel set is in need of striking and polishing.



Closer picture of the original mating of the Winchester barrels. Again will be milled to accept Bob's top rib.



Muzzel end with ruff crowning and temporary spacers between barrels.



Side view of the barrels.



Side view of the barrels with Birdhunter50's top rib setting on top. Breech still not milled out to accept ribs.



Top view with Bob's top rib in setting in place.



Previously posted side view of the prototype 21 receiver I am making. It is ruff milled and currently (today) the top tang was made and shaped to a stock. It must be filed, sanded and polished inside and out to ensure all the internals function properly.



Top view of the ruff milled receiver. More pictures of the receiver and forearm parts on the previous thread.



I will post more pictures as I hopefully make some progress------------Bill








Edited by CptCurl (16/01/12 12:44 AM)


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Sarg
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #199418 - 14/01/12 12:33 PM

Well you gave it the old collage try !

Cant wait to see your pics & follow along the thread !

When you copy & paste , just keep checking your post on the reply part before posting .

You only have to save 3 on 4 lines , one of them is sure to work , I think it is the bottom one on my drop down list ?


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tinker
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Sarg]
      #199428 - 14/01/12 02:22 PM

Keep it up!
You'll be a happy man when the job's done, I'm looking forward to seeing how you do.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: tinker]
      #199469 - 15/01/12 05:42 AM

Looking good.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: DarylS]
      #199596 - 16/01/12 02:18 PM

I've got a question of the group. Considering this rifle will be In 45-70 I could still shorten the barrels to 22 inches vs leaving them at 24 as they currently are. Has anyone done the pros and cons of barrel length for a 45-70?------Bill

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: tinker]
      #201023 - 29/01/12 02:52 PM

Thank you for the input on the barrel length. I will leave them at 24 inches. Birdhunter I agree with you on on handling and weight forward. You asked about body size. I am 6-2 and 245 so I do like a hefty rifle and a little weight forward. --------------Bill

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #201062 - 30/01/12 02:14 AM

I have made some progress since the last pictures. I have completed the top tang made to the proper radius to fit a stock, welded it in place and drilled the hole to accomodate the top lever. I am now working on fitting the trigger plate to the underside of the frame. It has a small space between the end and the mating surface of the frame so I will have to weld in some material then file it away to fit as it should. The rest of the trigger plate fits correctly. Then the next step is to contour the frame with the trigger plate in to final contours.

As you can see I still have to mill out the slot for the safety and drill and tap the holes for the screws.




Not a very good picture but it does show the radius of the tang.



I will send some more pictures as I make progress.--------Bill

Edited by CptCurl (01/02/12 11:33 PM)


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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223584 - 14/01/13 11:09 AM

After a considerable delay I am back with some updates on my Winchester 21 DR 45-70 project. Since my last post (last year) I have completed all the 3-D scans of the prototype receiver, trigger plate, top lever, monobloc, and forearm shoe. We have just verified and modified the CAD data to input to the CAM program for the receiver. It turns out that the CAD data was prepared expecting a 4 axis CNC milling machine while my machinist only has a 2 axis machine. This caused considerable delay in rewriting the program since the milling machine tried to pick up data inside the block of steel and would plunge the bit into the metal causing quite a mess. Anyway, this is something for you to keep in mind if you try this. The learning curve has been steep for me but I think I am finally ready to finish milling out the receiver. The first thing we did was extract the data for the outline of the receiver being careful to be exact on the water table and the radius for the hinge pin. We set up the EDM wire cutter to cut out two receivers at once (see pictures below). You can see from these pictures we are literally starting with a solid block of 4340 steel alloy. The wire cutter saves a tremendous amount of milling time and does a great job on the flat or surfaces that require a precise radius. I highly recommend you use this step first.

EDM tank. You can't see the metal block but it is in a bracket below.



Tank emptied with one cut completed



Both cuts made from block of 4340 steel alloy.



Receivers as released from the initial EMD cut.



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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223587 - 14/01/13 11:23 AM

Thought I would add a couple more pictures to show the radius and the watertable.



Hinge pin radius.



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DarylS
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223589 - 14/01/13 11:30 AM

Oh MAN - what a LOT of work - you guys building doubles from scratch - WOW and BRAVO!!

Gotta be a labour of love. I can't seem to get motivated to load my .17AH's. Nothing to make, just load.


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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: DarylS]
      #223593 - 14/01/13 12:00 PM

Setterguy,

Thanks very much for an update of your epic project.

Great to see it taking shape.

Looking forward to seeing progress photos of the CNC work.

I wish you every success in this "grand endeavour".


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Matabele
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #223609 - 14/01/13 05:15 PM

I love to see projects like this! Thanks for posting and all the best for your endeavour, and please keep us updated, thanks.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Matabele]
      #223657 - 15/01/13 10:54 AM

First I must correct some errors in my earlier post. I simple didn't read it well enough after typing it. The first error was in the description of the machinist CNC machine vis a vis the scan data. I said he had a two axis machine but, in fact, counting the "Z" axis i.e. the depth then he has a 3 axis machine. What he can't do is rotate the part. He can do X and Y axis as well as depth. The second error I should have seen immediately but didn't until I re-read the post. The pictures I posted and said they were 4340 steel alloy are actually 6Al-4V grade V titanium. We wire cut both the titanium and 4340 in the same manner and at the same time but I posted a picture of the titanium. The picture below is both steel and titanium. The difference is apparent. I was confident of the EDM cutting so we did both but we are using the 4340 steel to mill first to validate the codes. I will be using the 4340 for the DR receivers and the titanium for shotguns.

4340 and grade V titanium wirecut receivers



I will soon show some pictures of the validation process and the steps along the way.---Bill

Edited by CptCurl (13/03/13 09:00 PM)


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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223709 - 16/01/13 09:57 AM

I promised to show some photos for the validation process of using the CAD data in the CAM milling machine. After cutting the receivers from the blocks of steel and titanium we needed to see if the program would accurately reproduce the all the outside contours of the receiver. We used a block of aluminum to start this process in order to not ruin one of the actual receivers. It was a good thing too since we did have a problem as discussed above. Below are some pictures of the outcoume.





You can see that the receiver contours are going to be correct and the dimensions accurate. As you can see from the next series of pictures the receiver is taking shape.




















As I have said in other threads there really is no shortcut to this process. Each step must be validated and verified. I have now begun the actual milling of the 4340 steel alloy receivers. I should say that the two dimension milling of the insides of the receiver are more straightforward than the complex radii of the surface. I will post progress as I hopefully make some.---Bill

Edited by CptCurl (13/03/13 09:02 PM)


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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223712 - 16/01/13 12:08 PM

Bill,

It's great to see your progress on this project. It's fascinating. The whole CAD/CAM/CNC process is a real testimony to worthwhile technology.

As you see the action emerge from the material I'm sure you'll be happy you endured the trials and tribulations you encountered and persisted.

I wish you every success with this project and please keep the photos coming.

It encourages me to get back to my own study of the CAD/CAM/CNC process.


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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223726 - 16/01/13 03:45 PM

I just reopened the thread and saw that the pictures had disappeared. I have no idea how that happened. Here they are again.







Edited by CptCurl (13/03/13 09:04 PM)


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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223727 - 16/01/13 03:50 PM

The second set of pictures from above that somehow disappeared???





If I deleted them somehow I don't know what I did and hope I don't do it again.---Bill

Edited by CptCurl (13/03/13 09:05 PM)


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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223821 - 18/01/13 08:14 AM

I have now completed the barrels for the DR. They are waiting on the completion of the receiver to be regulated. I used one of Bob Hynden's(Birdhunter50)top ribs and it worked out great. It saved me a lot of work making one. Before anyone jumps on me for making a beavertail forearm and being a nontraditionalist I need to say that the Winchester 21 came predominately with a beavertail. So, I am true to the gun. However, you will see in one of the photos that I do have a splinter forearm but I need to refinish the wood. I will try both to see which one I like the most. I will try and keep an open mind. I know this is an area for very strong opinions from the forum group.

As Bob has pointed out to me before, first time builders such as myself frequently err on the side of too much metal on the barrels i.e. too heavy and that is the case for this DR. I should have contoured the barrels more but it seemed right at the time. From the best I can tell the DR will weigh about 11 pounds. That is about 2 pounds more than I wanted but it is what it is. I further contributed to the weight problem by using the dimensions of a 12 ga stock instead of a 20 ga (the receiver and monobloc are 20 ga). I wanted the pistol grip area to be thicker and stronger than the sleek lines of the 20. I probably didn't need to do that either and it will be over designed in all areas I guess. This is a learning process afterall. Please see the pictures below.

Completed Winchester 21 DR 45-70 barrels and forearm





Front Ramp of Bob's top rib


Top rib and 2 leaf folding site. Quarter rib milled for Talley bases


Breech end completed with selective ejectors made and installed. Faced and fitted to standing breech of prototype


I know some of you don't want to look at this picture but please bear with me


Front sling bracket still loose for regulation


Underside of completed breech end


With fitted but not finished splinter forearm


Dishwasher sighted it and helpless


Edited by CptCurl (13/03/13 09:08 PM)


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TomN
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223824 - 18/01/13 10:16 AM

Setterguy I like the look of the beavertail and it gives you somthing to hang on to. looking good you have a lot ot talent to be able to do that form scratch.
Tom N


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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: TomN]
      #223828 - 18/01/13 12:08 PM

Setterguy,

Keep up the good work.

It's great to see the shape of the action evolve as the speeds and feeds are refined.

Perhaps the cure for your overweight .45/70 is a rechamber to 450 3 1/4 NE or .450/500 that'd get the weight "about" right. Build yourself a 9lb .45/70 next time.

If you're worried about the pistol grip being too thin perhaps extended tangs may allow you to have strength in this area but be svelt enough to maintain feel.

Beavertail forends are alright on guns that get shot enough to get "hot to handle" in the front hand but are you ever likely to be shooting "driven elephant" ??? I shoot Sporting clays with a splinter forended sxs and it'll get uncomfortably hot to hang onto. Some say a gloved front hand will do the same thing. Otherwise it's just an individual's opinion of fit and feel.......unless you want weight forward.

To end up with a gun of correct weight for calibre, great balance and feel and dynamic handling is all a "balancing act" ..........pun only half intended.

Just my "two bits" worth. Remember "Free advice is usually worth everything you gave for it!!!!"

Great project. Thanks for posting. Keep us in the loop.


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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #223838 - 18/01/13 02:57 PM

Twobobbwana,you make a great point on the 450 NE. I have seriously thought about not stamping the barrels maintaing the option of simply extending the chamber to 450. The weight would certainly handle it well. However, I am going to finish it as a 45-70 and see how I like it. It is too early for me to tell since I can't even shoot it yet. You can't believe how anxious I am to get the receiver done. This project has taken so long but I am not going to give up until it is finished. I could shoot it now with the prototype receiver but it does not have bushings and I don't want to take the chance.----Bill

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223855 - 18/01/13 04:42 PM

Steady Bill "Stay the Course".

You're almost there !!!! Remember it's usually the last 5% that is the difference between a good job and a great job.

If you make a shortcut now you'll regret it.

At least an 11lb .45/70 shouldn't kick much. Just don't stamp the cartridge on the barrells yet..... just in case.

I can only have an inkling of your excitement.......watching what would be a long term project come slowly to completion.........at the same time wondering whether a computer glitch/programming problem will cause the cutter to spear through everything, including the milling table, and head towards the basement.

Hang in there and make sure you keep posting photos so that we can all see what can be achieved if we apply ourselves.

When you're producing shotguns and double rifles that you're proud of all the anguish will be worth it.


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223876 - 19/01/13 01:13 AM

Bill,
I wouldn't worry too much about using the beavertail forend on your gun. We have all read the opinions of those who like the splinter forend and those that favor the beavertail. Most collectors of British doubles claim to prefer the splinter because it is traditional and is supposed to help you shoot driven birds better or some such. With a rifle we are talking about pinpoint aimed fire and I personally think the beavertail gives me more control. Your best bet is to do as you suggested, try both, and just see which one you like best for your shooting style. If the beavertail didn't work, they wouldn't be putting them on so many new double rifles. Bob


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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #224088 - 22/01/13 07:33 AM

I am posting below some pictures as we begin the actual CNC milling of the receiver. This continues to be a work in progress. The pictures below are where we are as of today. There likely will not be further work until late in the week. The first picture is of the bottom of the receiver where the milling is complete for all the structure. The jig to the right of the four receivers is made to precisely fit the where the trigger plate will mate to the receiver.



This picture is of the back of the receiver with the bottom jig in place.



This is a side view of the receiver. You can see we have done some milling of the top but none as yet on the sides.



Another view of the bottom of a receiver with the matching bottom jig.



This is a view of the four 4340 steel alloy receivers two of which has had some milling.



This is a picture of the top and the beginning of milling the sides



To mill the side they are jigged bottom to bottom so two are done at one time.



You can see from this picture how the milling of the side is progressing.



That's it for now. I will update you as I make progress.-------Bill

Edited by CptCurl (13/03/13 09:09 PM)


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Matabele
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #224111 - 22/01/13 05:36 PM

Fantastic to watch Bill, thanks for keeping us in the loop!

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