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Rell
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Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Rechambering?
      #30979 - 13/05/05 04:15 AM

Two questions.

Can a berreta O/U in 30-06 be rechambered to 30r blaser,300h&h rimmed or another rimmed 30?

Can a searcy or merkel 375H&H mag be converted to a 375 flanged?

Someone here was talking about a 458win being rechambered for a 450 no2, this is what's got me thinking.

As an aside, I was in the H&H gun room in NYC this week and I saw a beautiful rigby sidelock 1912 in 450ne that had been rechambered and rebored to 470NE. They wanted $55,000USD for it. I was pretty surprissed, does that not seem just a little (2x to much) steep?

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Rechambering? [Re: Rell]
      #30985 - 13/05/05 06:13 AM

rell

"As an aside, I was in the H&H gun room in NYC this week and I saw a beautiful rigby sidelock 1912 in
450ne that had been rechambered and rebored to 470NE. They wanted $55,000USD for it. I was pretty
surprissed, does that not seem just a little (2x to much) steep? "

The rechambering is not a problem as it was almost certainly done in the UK and done well, reproofed.
This double is one of the best of the best in a Classic stalking configuration and in excellent condition
by the looks of it.

Re price - you get what you pay for and don't forget, Holland back up what they sell so of course
it will be (slightly?) higher than others.

At the the level and market segment the guns they sell are pitched at, it doesn't matter
whether it's 45, 55 or 65.

It's expensive to most of the market that eyeballs Merkels, Chapuis and lower grade, well used
English guns. To someone who wants an "English" Rigby to go on Safari and wants it
now, there it is, available now, no waiting.

That's just my HO on the market.

500 Nitro

PS - IF it's the Rigby Bissell Rising third bite sidelock, then it is even better than a
Rigby made on a Webley action.


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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: Rechambering? [Re: Rell]
      #30988 - 13/05/05 07:39 AM

In reply to:

Two questions.

Can a berreta O/U in 30-06 be rechambered to 30r blaser,300h&h rimmed or another rimmed 30?




Yes, it could be rechambered for a larger cartridge case - depending on the cartridge chosen, opperating pressure, how much metal is available in the barrel walls, and the action size. Reregulation would be very likely.

In reply to:

Can a searcy or merkel 375H&H mag be converted to a 375 flanged?




No, the flanged version isn't large enough to "clean up" the chambering of the belted version.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Rechambering? [Re: new_guy]
      #31047 - 13/05/05 10:46 PM

In reply to:




In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can a searcy or merkel 375H&H mag be converted to "A" 375 flanged?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No, the flanged version isn't large enough to "clean up" the chambering of the belted version.




Yes it can be done but you end up with a wildcat cartridge, because the shoulder of the 375 Fl, is farther back toward the flange than the shoulder on the belted version.

This is done by boreing out the BELT area of the chambers, and installing a rings of steel, then cutting it flush with the end of the barrels, and running the fl reamer in to cut the ring to the Flanged base, cutting the recess for the flange, and the extractors. Then the 375 FL brass is fire formed to the resulting chamber. The rounds will have to be loaded with standard 375 H&H dies, or special cut wildcat dies. Since all double rifles need handloading to get the best they can offer, the use of a wildcat, this easy to make wildcat is a good choice. Because one can simply use the 375 H&H load data, starting with the low listed loads, and working up to get regulation, this one makes sense in a double rifle. However this work is not cheap, unless you can do the work yourself, and if not, it is easier, and cheaper to simply buy what you want from the maker, in the first place, but it can be done successfully,
if that is the route you want to go!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Rechambering? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #31088 - 14/05/05 06:57 AM

Yes & no. Length to shoulder for the .375 Flanged Magnum is the same as that of the .375 Belted Rimless Magnum - 2.4". What makes it look different is that the Flanged has a longer neck than the rimless, .440" vs .350", which results in the Flanged having a longer overall length of 2.940" vs 2.850" for the Belted Rimless. Ditto the Super .30 Flanged and Belted Rimless. Twenty-five years ago the Brits were high and behind converting Flanged Magnum rifles to Belted Rimless because ammo and brass for the Flanged could not be had at any price. Mac is quite right that going in the other direction would seem to require chamber sleeving though.

Rechambering a double rifle can sometimes make a lot of sense, especially when the original chambering was especially dumb. Always plan on re-regulating, although it sometimes isn't required. It isn't particularly expensive anyway. A double in something like .458 WM could easily be rechambered and re-regulated to one of the Flanged .450s, such as .450 No. 2 NE, for $1,000 or so I imagine.
--------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Rechambering? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #31402 - 18/05/05 01:41 PM

450NitroExpress,

I recently bought a Marcel Thys sidelock double in 458wm and priced up the conversion with JJ Perodeau. Worst case cost including reregulation and reblueing if both were required was abot $1700. JJ thought requiring reregulation about a 50/50 chance. If I recall the cost of the rechamber and reconfiguring the ejectors was in the $500-$600 range.

Also the only viable choice, at least on this rifle due to action width and barrel meat is 450NE 3 1/4". 450NE No2 wouldn't work according to JJ.

Hope this helps.

JPK


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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Rechambering? [Re: JPK]
      #31417 - 18/05/05 04:02 PM

The problem with having JJ do it, (no offense to his work, I've seen it since he worked for Thys) is the lack of proof marks for the new chambering. I would suggest that if you had it done you get it reproofed in England, Belgium or Austria.

By the way, I thnk you should rechambr it.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Rechambering? [Re: JPK]
      #31420 - 18/05/05 04:13 PM

JPK:

I figured re-chambering would be $400 to $600 and re-regulation $600. I did not include re-blacking the barrels because it usually isn't required. It wasn't the last time J.J. re-regulated one for me.

Nothing wrong with .450 3.25". Sure beats .458. I've seen a number of .458s re-chambered to .450 No. 2 and others to .450 3.25". Just depends on how much steel you have to work with.
-------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Rechambering? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #31453 - 19/05/05 03:45 AM


400NitroExpress

" I did not include re-blacking the barrels because it usually isn't required. It wasn't the last time J.J. re-regulated one for me."

Could you explain how you re regulate a double rifle which generaly means unsoldering the barrels at the muzzle
and resoldering them, then firing new loads means that you do not have to reblack the barrels ?


Re re chambering and reproofing
IMHO, A re chambered double rifle is worth nothing if it has not been reproofed.
It also means you can only sell or hunt with it in a few countries.
My recommendation is to get it reproofed in the original country of manufacture.

500 Nitro


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Rechambering? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #31454 - 19/05/05 03:51 AM

Mickey, 450NitroExpress,

I've enjoyed shooting the rifle as a 458wm since ammo was relatively cheap and easy to get in the short time I've owned the gun. I've put about 130 or so rounds through it.

Must say that I've had no ejection or extraction issues and after a little learning curve on loading it smoothly no issues there either.

The rifle is now on its way back to JJ to have the front trigger pull lightened and a bit larger front bead installed. I've got a couple of days of shipping time to decide whether to rechamber now or wait till after my Oct Zim trip.

I'd have JJ do the work and he'll get it "on the books" with Marcel and I'll send it to be reproved afterwards.

As sugested would be the case by others in earlier threads I haven't found factory loads that regulate really well. The Federal loads have been the best with the Sledgehammer load crossing by two inches but at the right elevation at 50yds and the Bearclaw being about the same distance apart but not crossing. At about 70yds they're still pretty good and I wouldn't hesitate to hunt with them as is but if I need to go to the trouble and expense of developing or having developed for me loads that work I'll probably rechamber to avoid having to do this twice.

JPK


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Rechambering? [Re: JPK]
      #31500 - 19/05/05 03:27 PM

JPK:

I see what you mean. Certainly, if the gun ultimately needs re-regulation and you're at all inclined to re-chamber, you might as well do it all at the same time. At any rate, until you find soft and solid loads that print pretty close to the same, you're not ready to re-regulate. If the solids are crossing slightly and the softs are shooting slightly apart, how do the velocities of the two compare? Sounds like this might be fairly simple to solve with handloads.

Best of luck on your hunt.

500 Nitro:

I understand your question. I resisted getting that rifle re-regulated for a number of years because I didn't understand that either. It is a pre-WWI rifle in fairly high original condition and the decision wasn't easy. I asked J. J. if the barrels would need to be re-blacked and he said that it usually wasn't necessary. When the gun came back there was NO physical evidence whatsoever that the barrels had been touched - except for the way it shot.

I've seen re-regulation done a few times since then and it isn't what I once imagined it to be. The barrels are not unsoldered and resoldered, they're simply heated enough to soften the solder enough so that the wedge and barrels can be moved. As I understand it (I'm strictly a layman here), as long as the heat is not overdone and the solder (and/or the gunk sometimes accumulated under the ribs which is often caustic) doesn't run, then the existing finish isn't ruined and re-blacking isn't required. Based on this understanding, if correct, I guess the need to re-black depends a lot on the skill of the regulator. J. J. is good.

Mick:

I certainly agree about the importance and value of re-proof, but I'm sure J. J. could return the gun to Belgium for this. Having worked in Liege and been an active importer from Europe since, I'm sure he knows the ins and outs of it.
--------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Rechambering? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #31501 - 19/05/05 04:03 PM

In reply to:

Mick:

I certainly agree about the importance and value of re-proof, but I'm sure J. J. could return the gun to Belgium for this. Having worked in Liege and been an active importer from Europe since, I'm sure he knows the ins and outs of it.




I agree. I am sure he can take care of it. I have seen a couple of rifles a Krieghoff, and a Chapuis, that were rechambered from 458 to 450 3 1/4 without proofs. They were both for sale and the asking price was what an untouched rifle should be. Around $8,000. They never sold and even at $5000 the Chapuis is still for sale. I lost track of the Krighoff.

Nobody know who did the work on the Chapuis, if it was reregulated and even if it was done correctly and that they would get a safe rifle. Thus it is untouchable. I offered $4500 for the Chapuis on the condition that I would pay for a reproof. If the rifle failed than I would get all my money back. The owner refused. He still has it 3 years later. Maybe he has little confidence in the rifle as configured.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
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Re: Rechambering? [Re: mickey]
      #31547 - 20/05/05 05:08 AM


400NitroExpress

Regarding re regulation - I can see what JJ is doing. I supposed when you rechamber
it is not going to change that much so only minor tweeking would be required.

Mickey
As you know, if a gun blows up on re proof, they give you back the pieces.
If it fails, they can chop the barrels !!!

Obviously the owner didn't have confidence in the way it was done !!!

Good decision not to buy it.

500 Nitro





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mickey
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Re: Rechambering? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #31554 - 20/05/05 05:59 AM

JPK

I don't want to scare you off the rechamber. If it is done correctly and reproofed you will have increased the value of the rifle beyond the cost. You will also get a rifle that you will have no worries over, not even in the back of your mind.

500 Nitro.

I'm not sure how JJ reregulates but the way I have seen it done in Liege and Ferlach is with two irons, heated with gas, that are inserted into the ends of the barrels. A jig is used that allows the individual barrel to be move backand forth and up and down. When the solder is hat the barrel that is offending is tweaked. The barrels never get hot enough to hurt the blacking.

I had a Gibbs that shot very badly reregulated by a well known fellow in the NE of the US. He claimed that he could do the job, and like a fool, I let him. He melted the solder almost to the breech and burned off the blacking almost as far. What a mess. I sent the rifle to Liege and had it put back together and reregulated properly. It came back looking better than before and shot very well also.

Moral is never let an Amateur practice on your rifle. Make sure they are competent to do the job. Second moral is that almost anything can be fixed by an expert.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Rechambering? [Re: mickey]
      #31556 - 20/05/05 06:12 AM


Mickey,

Thats why I spend $1000 - $2000 on every gun I buy (Double Rifle) to make sure
everything is OK before I stick my head next to it !!! And if the gun needs re regulating
then I'd pay to get it done by an expert as you say - the same as I get my guns worked on
by competent gunsmiths and not back yarders / amateurs. They cost more but at least they do
it correctly.

Then if and when you sell it, people say "Oh, that's a bit pricey" but they don't look at
what it is and that it works !!!

ANYBODY can sell a double cheap - but you get what you pay for so it depends on how much
risk you want to take !!!

500 Nitro


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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: Rechambering? [Re: Rell]
      #31568 - 20/05/05 10:32 AM

I had a Tikka 512 barrel set in 30-06 rechambered to 300 FM. It went slicker'n snot.

It was an easy rechamber, according to the gunsmith.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Rechambering? [Re: luv2safari]
      #31571 - 20/05/05 01:46 PM

Mickey,

I figured that rechamber would add value, but thats not really critical to me since I don't forsee selling it. Even with 130 flawless rounds through the gun and the benefits of cheap and easy ammo with worldwide availability, I do think getting rid of that small kernel of doubt would be worth it.

In fact if the rifle had been a 470 I probably wouldn't have been able to afford it, likewise a 450NE or other big bore rimmed NE. I bought the rifle with the idea of restocking it (since I'm a lefty) and rechambering. Odd thing is that somehow the right hand stock with 1/4" castoff and a cheekpiece to boot somehow fits. The fact that the gun is 458 let me buy it in the first place.

400NitroExpress,

Federal advertises the velocity of both loads as 2090 out of a 24" barrel. I've read a review that crono'd the ammo at 2126 out of a 24" barrel and Allen Day on AR responded to my post asking if anyone had crono'd these loads. Allen had and they came very close to the #'s for him. My rifle has 26" barrels so I figure I'm shooting at 2100 to 2150 but don't have a crono so I'm just guessing. It would seem that there is some difference between the solids and softs since one crosses and the other doesn't.

The reason JJ thinks reregulation about a fifty/fifty proposition is that in his experience if you load the new 450 ammo to the 458 velocity for which the rifle was regulated you're very often there. JJ shot my rifle when checking it out for me prior to finalizing the purchase and he's a better shot than I for sure. He managed a four shot two inch group at 50yds with the rights and lefts crossing by about 1 1/2". The rights were a half inch apart and the lefts overlapping.

Since the rifle seems to be regulated for a pretty high velocity there is no need to reregulate after a conversion just to get to 450 NE performance levels since the rifle seems set up for that anyway.

JPK


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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: Rechambering? [Re: mickey]
      #31576 - 20/05/05 02:17 PM

In reply to:

I had a Gibbs that shot very badly reregulated by a well known fellow in the NE of the US. He claimed that he could do the job




I'd like to know who that was and who not to send any work to...

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Rechambering? [Re: new_guy]
      #31577 - 20/05/05 03:11 PM

He has now retired and someone else is running the business. I was told later that he refused to reregulate anymore because it was too difficult. Too bad he didn't realize that sooner.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Rechambering? [Re: JPK]
      #31614 - 21/05/05 01:41 AM

JPK:

Yeah, I would think the chances are pretty good that it wouldn't require re-reg, and .450 beats the .458 all hollow in a DR. I would do the conversion without a second thought. Sounds like a real nice rifle. I'll bet its pretty.

Mick:

That is pretty much the way I've seen it done as well. From the photos I've seen of the process, it looks to me like it is done the same way when building a new rifle - regulation is done after the ribs are soldered on.
---------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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