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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Cast Bullets
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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Soft versus hard cast bullets
      #280378 - 06/04/16 12:45 AM

This may be a bit off subject but it is a current concern of mine so I am asking all the experts out there. I have a Lyman 12 gauge mold for the "sabot slugs" and have been using Winchester once fired hulls and AA 12 gauge wads to load these in and then they are star crimped. I have gotten good accuracy and good speed out of them so far doing this without any problems.
Winchester has quit selling the 12 gauge AA wads some time back so I was looking for a replacement load that would get me about the same speed using another wad. I called Ballistic Products to see what they would recommend and the tech told me that Clay Buster wads were the standard replacements for the AA wads. I also found out that they had new Federal clear primed cases on sale some I bought some of those as well. I was assured that they would be a good replacement for the AA hulls.
I loaded up a few of these using the Lyman soft cast slugs and fired a few of them in the rifled slug gun I am just finishing up. The hulls were trying to stick in the chambers and I know that the load is a recommended load by Lyman with only 9300 PSI., so I figured that the problem was that either the hulls were thicker or it might be that the wads were thicker. I measured the soft lead slugs at .685" across the from rim of the slug where it is largest.
Finally, here is my question, if I cast these out of harder lead will they be enough smaller to just relieve a bit of the pinching when they they leave the case mouth? I have some alloy that I hardened up by putting quite a bit of tin into it, it can just barely be scratched with a thumbnail.
Is there any way to know or predict how much the diameter will be reduced by using harder lead. Also, does the casting temp. of the metal make any difference in diameter size as long as the mold blocks are hot? Bob

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Soft versus hard cast bullets [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #280382 - 06/04/16 02:57 AM

Hey Bob. I seem to recall reading that 10:1 gives you the hardest tin/lead mix. Further adding antimony will increase hardness.

Antimony/lead (the old clamp-on wheel weights) mixes cast smaller than tin/lead, I think.

In my 14 bore rifle, the difference between soft lead and WW is about .002" - that is all.

The higher the temp with antimony alloys, the more frosted the bullets and theoretically, the smaller the projectile, but I cannot measure the difference with my calipers, but the micrometer, which you can measure to .0001", ie: 1 10 thousandths might see a difference. Indeed, you can measure to close to 1/2 that, as in between the marks. I have never measured them with the mic. as I do not see measurements that small as being useful.
A cooler "melt" will give smaller projectiles, but would be difficult as far as consistency is concerned.

I thought the WAA12R wad was THE wad for the Lyman sabot slugs, especially when using slower powders like Longshot and Steel. I had the data for that around here and cannot find it now.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Iowa_303s
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Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1014
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: Soft versus hard cast bullets [Re: DarylS]
      #280387 - 06/04/16 03:49 AM

Bob,
I beleive Daryl has it backwards as to alloy of lead/tin vs lead/ antimony.
If I need a fatter bullet from the same mould I use an alloy that has more antimony in it.
Tin can only harden an alloy so much. I use up to 5% tin and once that point is reached I start adding antimony.
In my experience, linotype will produce the largest bullet from a mould.
Hope this helps.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Soft versus hard cast bullets [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #280438 - 07/04/16 12:11 AM

I went ahead and cast up a dozen out of the harder alloy. It appears that the new harder bullets are .002 to .003 inches smaller than the ones cast out the pure lead. However, in measuring these I found that the mold doesn't throw perfectly round bullets, measured one way ,(across the parting lines), the seem to be 3 to 4 thousandths larger than when measured at 90 degrees to the lines. This means that the out of roundness is more than the difference between the hard and soft lead bullets.
I am hoping that the small reduction in size will help the bullet/wad combination to enter and go through the forcing cone area without creating quite as much pressure. If the soft lead slug noses have been swedging down any as they go through the forcing cones, then this may be a mistake, I just don't know.
Daryl, You are correct about the wads being the ones they recommend, but as far as I can tell, they have been discontinued and the replacement wads are now Clay Busters. I did measure the thickness of the wad petals and the Clay Busters are 1 to 2 thou. over the AA wad thickness. The hull thickness at the mouths of the Federal cases and the old AA cases seem to be about the same thickness.
Iowa_303, I had added part of a bar of Tin to my 10 pound lead pot but didn't have any Antimony so I dumped in a large handful of old reclaimed shot. It should have at least some Antimony in it, probably Arsenic as well! That's another reason to always do your bullet casting outside! It was chilly outside yesterday and windy too. I had to put up a piece of plywood to block the breeze and I still had to run several bullets and remelt them because of wrinkles caused by the mold not being hot enough.
I intend to try these out today and will report back to you guys on how they worked out. It seems like these chambers must be a little too tight but I have taken them down to full depth according to my chamber gauge and even went in with the long forcing cone reamer and relieved a bit more of the lead in the chambers. These are really light weight barrels and I can't afford to take any more metal out of the front of the chambers in them. I hope to find the right answer today. Bob

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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Soft versus hard cast bullets [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #280456 - 07/04/16 06:37 AM

sorry - YES - I had it bassackwards

antimony mix casts larger by .002" to .003" in the 12 bore size.

Pure lead casts smallest due to more shrinkage.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Soft versus hard cast bullets [Re: DarylS]
      #280457 - 07/04/16 06:42 AM

Out of round can also create problems of course.

You may or may not wish to pursue the special wads that Ed Huble had made up for holing .58 cal. (.575" to .577" bullets. The address for them should be found somewhere in his 12 Gauge from Hell thread.
I have a couple bags of them I bought from a fellow in Manitoba, I think it was. I have not worked with them yet- keeps getting put off, however I do have Blue Dot, Longshot and Steel powders for the experimenting.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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