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TomN
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Reged: 07/03/10
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Loc: washington
10 gauge 31/2" wads
      #222178 - 22/12/12 12:32 PM

I have a 10 gauge that I would like to load I have the tools to load but was woundering if I could use 11 gauge wads for filler to get to the right hight. also would 11 gauge over powder cards work? I am asking as I have a chance to get 750 fiber and 500 card wads in 11 gauge. Thanks Tom N

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DarylS
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Re: 10 gauge 31/2" wads [Re: TomN]
      #222179 - 22/12/12 12:44 PM

Use the wads that fit tightly in the hulls.

I'd use 2 7/8" hulls myself, if I could get them. The shorter hull might make for better grouping and easier wad loading. It's all a crap shoot until your able to test.

My 3 1/2" chambered Pump shoots very well using round balls and 2-3/4" hulls, so it's not much of a jump.

www.trackofthewolf.com has wads & lists the sizes was well.

Measure as best you can, the interior diameter of the shotshell, then buy the appropriate sized wad from a source like track or or Circle W,X,Y,Z, or whatever they are called.

I expect you might need 10 bore or maybe even 9 bore wads, not smaller ones - but you are the one with the measuring device & the hulls.

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TomN
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Re: 10 gauge 31/2" wads [Re: DarylS]
      #222180 - 22/12/12 01:10 PM

Thanks Daryl I was asking as I could get them all for less then $8 dollers so I had to ask I will just have to get them form the internet. Tom N

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lancaster
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Re: 10 gauge 31/2" wads [Re: TomN]
      #222198 - 23/12/12 12:46 AM

circle fly wads
http://www.circlefly.com/html/products.html

http://www.circlefly.com/html/wad_sizing_chart.html



Edited by lancaster (23/12/12 12:48 AM)

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: 10 gauge 31/2" wads [Re: lancaster]
      #222628 - 31/12/12 01:49 PM

Normally you'd go the other way and use smaller gauge wads inside the shotcup to raise the shot column height to get a good crimp. If you do this the card helps the pattern also, (more for the shot to cushion against when set-back forces act on it). If, however, you use a card as an over-powder wad, and then put a standard plastic wad above that, the card could become squashed and deformed into the plastic over-powder cup on ignition. I'm assuming you're not just building a long column of multiple cards.

If you're worried about the card diameter not sealing, and it's made of cardboard, you can add a few drops of something to it to make it expand slightly. It's mentioned in Robert Stack's Shotgun Digest, which I can look up if you like. It might not work with fibre though. I've used fibre wads and cardboard wads in my 10 gauge putting them inside both SP10 and BPD10 wads. However I prefer insert wads made of wool from Ballistic Products. It's quite revealing to recover the various wads down-range and study how they're marked. It's also revealing to pattern the various loads and compare the options this way too ! I think the woolen wads won out slightly.

BTW, if the crimp didn't seal and small pellets or buffer came through it when agitated, I used parafin wax used to seal fruit preserving jars. Just a melted drop on the crimp gap sealed it. Also what worked equally well was a cut out 1" square of thin waxed paper pushed on top of the shot column just before crimping.

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TomN
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Re: 10 gauge 31/2" wads [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #222690 - 01/01/13 06:09 PM

Thanks I will be loading round balls and I wanted to be able ot get the ball high to the right place to crimp. I ordered some over powder cards and some felt wads and some shot cups that I will cut the fingers off and use the cup on the bottom to keep the ball centered in the barrlss. I will be starting with .748 balls they are a bit small and shoud center in the bore with the cup up and ball in the cup if not I will have th go with a bigger ball. Tom N

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DarylS
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Re: 10 gauge 31/2" wads [Re: TomN]
      #222710 - 02/01/13 06:02 AM

Tom - you might find the smaller, lighter 11 bore ball hits closer, ie: regulates more easily, just as I found that in my 12 bore that liked the 14 bore balls - centrally supported by the gas-check 'cups'. I must note the early success in my loads, which stopped further testing by me. That testing could have helped others today. Now, much of that is speculation of things that might help - things we might have tried but need to be attempted now.

Kiwi bloke brought up a good point about using smaller diameter wads inside normal shotcups to give height to the balls. The guys did this in their 12 bore ML shotguns, using .58 cal balls inside the plastic cups. I wanted more ball weight so I only tested these more than once, about 35 years ago.

If a ball inside a shotcup gives good centreing (a tight fit) in the bore, then that is another variable you can test.

I have read that a shot cup actually rotates in the bore in the direction of the reamer, which would be right handed if reamed from the breech, left if from the muzzle. This came from an article on trap shooting, where they were attempting to get the very best patterns and that the minor rotation actually screwed up that was capable with slight longitudinal grooving. I cannot remember where I read that, now - dammit.

The actual direction of reaming is not important, but that ANY rotation should aid in accuracy. The longer the wad column, the more contact/friction in the bore with the faint, invisible reaming marks and the more likely the wad will rotate around it's axis - if it's tightly holding a ball!

For smokeless powder, Alcan's AL8 and Herculese Blue Dot worked well in my 10 bore double for high speed shot loads with 2 ounces of shot.

Just a thought.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TomN
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Re: 10 gauge 31/2" wads [Re: DarylS]
      #222717 - 02/01/13 06:46 AM

Daryl
Thanks I will probabay have to load a lot to get one that will shoot well and then stick to that one if not and I fine one that will shoot well I will have the barrells regulated to that load. I haven't got all the things I need to start as yet they are still in the mail hope to get them this week sometime.
Tom N

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TomN
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Re: 10 gauge 31/2" wads [Re: TomN]
      #222800 - 03/01/13 12:27 PM

Got the shells and shot cups to day I still need the powder. What I did was to take a loaded shell that I had and took the shot out (1 5/8 oz.) and tryed to put in a round ball. I cut my shot cup to hold the ball and then started to put the load together so I high the right high to crimp the ball and down with a 8 segment crimp. I think that I have the high right as the ball was to the top of the shell but when I started the crimp and them tryed to finish it it just folded into the shell it looks like a one layer rolled crimp it seams to hold the ball tight but I wounder if it will shoot without undue pressure? I have never loaded shot shells befor and I know that the right hight is very inportent for the crimp and pressure. maybe with just balls I should just cut some of the crimp off and get a role crimper and try that. Thanks

Tom N

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DarylS
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Re: 10 gauge 31/2" wads [Re: TomN]
      #222847 - 04/01/13 02:51 AM

10 bore 3 1/2" & 1-5/8's oz. shot? must have been a steel shot load.
What does the ball weigh that you are going to use?

If less than 711gr. (1-5/8oz), you should be able to put in a 12 bore wad or wads to increase the height of the ball inside the case to get the proper height for a proper crimp.

I take it from your description that the case mouth, folded back inside the hull with the ends of it pointing straight down the inside walls, contacting the ball & holding it there.

When fired, about 1/2" of case mouth must reverse backwards to unfold and you are concerned about pressure increase form this 'extra work'. I would be too. I have a feeling, the ball will squeeze down a bit to ride over case mouth, and the following wad will attempt to reverse the inverted case mouth while it passes. The question is will this rise pressures too much. I don't know, but I do not like that scenario one bit.

Best to take it apart and do it right - get the wad height right and record what wads were necessary to do it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TomN
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Re: 10 gauge 31/2" wads [Re: DarylS]
      #222849 - 04/01/13 04:36 AM

Daryl
The ball is a .690 from track of the wolf. I doin't think that they are that heavy as my .715's are only in the 545 to 550 range. I would have though that the hight was right or a little hihg as the ball when presed in was at or near the top of the shell. I think what happeded is I used to much pressure to close the crimp and pushed the springie part of the wad down and them folded the crimp down to far. I hadn't had plans to shoot it I will try one more and if I can find a hight that works will shoot them.
Tom N.
P.S. For all you out their that would try this stay with a 12 or 20 gauge as their isn't much info out their for slug loads for a 10 gauge at lest I haven't been able to find them.

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DarylS
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Re: 10 gauge 31/2" wads [Re: TomN]
      #222851 - 04/01/13 05:11 AM

Tom - permanently compressing the wad is entirely possible when you crimped it. I prefer built up wad columns with card and fiber wads, only using the gas checks for holding the ball centred and as a gas check. The built up column still has a bit of 'give', but is also firm and deliberate in it's exit from the muzzle. I believe compressible wad columns can compress crooked (Ed's pictures show this) and send the ball or bullet off at an angle to the muzzle as the wad opens unevenly in relation to the line of departure.

I'm confused again - are you using a 10 bore or a 12 bore?
The .690" should work in a 12 bore just fine, as it is a 14 bore ball - of about 495gr. in pure lead.

437.5gr. to the ounce. A .715" ball usually weighs 1 1/4 ounces at 545/6gr.

If a 10 bore, I'd think a .740" ball would be about as undersized to the .775" (10) bore as you'd want. A .740" ball in pure lead will only run 600gr. A true 10 bore .775" ball is 700gr. according to my chart, just under the 1 5/8ounce load of shot for weight.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TomN
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Re: 10 gauge 31/2" wads [Re: DarylS]
      #222863 - 04/01/13 09:55 AM

Daryl
Yes it's a 10 bore I have tryed the .715's and I got some .748's but when I put them in the cut back shot cup they tend to bulage the shot cut and the shell so as not to load. What I am hearing you say is to cut the fingers off the shot cup and turn it over and use the cup at the bottom of the shot cup and keep the flat part on the fiber wads or should I just cut the cup off the shot cup and put it right on the fiber wads? The 690 would fit insied the shot cup with the fingers cut off to just mid ball and seam to hold it in the center the others I have seam to be to big to do that but if I should be turning it over I would use the .748 ball and hope the presser would keep it centerd as it looked to small to fill the cup and seams to let the ball roll arown inside of the cup on the bottom of the shot cup thanks.

Tom N

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DarylS
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Re: 10 gauge 31/2" wads [Re: TomN]
      #222864 - 04/01/13 10:28 AM

If the shot cup has a well cupped hemispherical shaped gas check base, cut that off and place on the powder. Then use 9 or 10 bore, fiber wads (whatever is needed) to fill the case to the ball. Place another gas check cup under the ball with the cup holding the ball centred in the case and in the bore - I'd start with the .748" balls.

In my testing, I did not have good luck using compressible wad columns under the balls.

That said, using Blue Dot or Long Shot powder, I would be surprised if you didn't see 1,900fps with a .690" ball.

That would put your 10 bore at a higher speed than any bore rifle, but a good 200fps.

It would take VERY careful loading using a chronograph and any other pressure judging methods possible to stay safe. Perhaps you should think in terms of staying in the 1,600 to 1,700fps range.

1,650 to 1,700fps would be equivalent to the 3" 9 dram heavy 12 bore charge of the 1890's, early 1900's. Peter from Denmark, of this forum, has just such a gun, I believe.

To find out what speed to develop your loads to, use a 10 bore black powder load and chronograph it. W.W. Greener's 9th Edition book should have that data, or perhaps COTW or other tomb.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TomN
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Re: 10 gauge 31/2" wads [Re: DarylS]
      #222944 - 05/01/13 11:55 AM

Daryl
I cut the bottom off the shot cup and used it for the gas seal and I took the top of the shot cup and cut the fingers back it just hold the .748 ball. As neather end has a good cup for holding the ball I cut it just short of the mid line of the ball and it seams to hold it centered. I then used 3 1/2" inch felt wads and one 1/4" over shot wad to get the ball to the right hight and was a lot more careful with the pressure that I used to close the crimp. These are put up in Fed. 31/2" shells that had a 15/8 oz load of shot so at under 700 grains they should be ok as I have sean peolpe replace one oz. of shot with a one oz. slug with out harm. I loaded 3 like this and will shoot them and check them over to make sure that they look ok and that they fall out of the gun easely. If they work ok I will load 6 six and see what kind of group I get if they work well I will load the rest of the box and shoot them.
Tom N

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DarylS
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Re: 10 gauge 31/2" wads [Re: TomN]
      #222978 - 06/01/13 04:53 AM

Sounds as if that will work - IF there is enough back pressure (wad and ball weight) to get the powder to ignite and burn properly. The shot replacement load will most likely produce quite low velocities.

One must start somewhere to get an idea of what is going on in the gun, though. Good luck.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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