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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns

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Rolland
.333 member

Reged: 31/12/06
Posts: 281
Loc: Camp Verde, AZ

16 guage european shotgun id
#150525 - 13/01/10 04:14 PM

I picked up a 16 guage shotgun I want to turn into a double rifle and was hoping someone could id it for me. The name on the barrels is " kruppscher flussstahl" "Essen" with crossed cannons. It has a bear engraved on each barrel. The choke is marked "choke 169" it looks like a full choke.
The top of the rib is marked "Wapen Deputen falun Import"
I assuming it is German but not sure. I am retaining the existing barrels and will be making a new monoblock and barrels.

Edited by Rolland (13/01/10 06:25 PM)

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 16 guage european shotgun id [Re: Rolland]
#150530 - 13/01/10 04:50 PM

Get some photos up of this gun.
The most significant feature of what you've noted is the gun talking about what kind of steel the barrels (which you'll be turning into recycling bin filler) are made of.

Photos will tell more than you'd think to say.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Der_Jaeger
.375 member

Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania

Re: 16 guage european shotgun id [Re: tinker]
#150568 - 13/01/10 11:25 PM

"kruppscher flussstahl" translates into "Krupp Fluid Steel". To me, the gun looks like a Neumann. Having handled many German guns and only a handful of Neumanns, that would be my guess based on the photos: The squared off bolsters at the frame angle, the flat action back, the shallow side clips, etc.....

--------------------

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4seventy
Sponsor

Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: 16 guage european shotgun id [Re: Rolland]
#150571 - 13/01/10 11:32 PM

Those are Belgian Proof Marks on the barrel flats.

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93mouse
.375 member

Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Slovenia

Re: 16 guage european shotgun id [Re: 4seventy]
#150577 - 14/01/10 12:27 AM

Yes - ELG,P.V are Belgian but the U with a star - it might be German beside "Wapen Deputen falun Import" may indicate that gun was made in Belgium and imported into Germany?

P.S. Perhaps that U was just inspector's stamp.

see post 1924 marks:

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17575181

Edited by 93mouse (14/01/10 12:59 AM)

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450_366
.400 member

Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.

Re: 16 guage european shotgun id [Re: 93mouse]
#150600 - 14/01/10 02:26 AM

Its a gun built for a swedish retailer, probably "cheap" german like geco or some other suhler. Probably bought thru a dealer in belguim, many swedish nonames came from liege.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Rolland
.333 member

Reged: 31/12/06
Posts: 281
Loc: Camp Verde, AZ

Re: 16 guage european shotgun id [Re: Rolland]
#150625 - 14/01/10 07:17 AM

Thanks for the information.

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ellenbr
.300 member

Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama

Re: 16 guage european shotgun id [Re: Rolland]
#150708 - 15/01/10 11:07 AM

It passed thru the Liege proofhouse in 1936 and wears a set of Sauer made Krupp tubes with an early trademark. Are there any marks near the forend lug?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Rolland
.333 member

Reged: 31/12/06
Posts: 281
Loc: Camp Verde, AZ

Re: 16 guage european shotgun id [Re: Rolland]
#150714 - 15/01/10 12:05 PM

No that is the extent of the markings, it is interesting that it is that old I would have placed it in the 1950's had I been guessing.
Thanks

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1774
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: 16 guage european shotgun id [Re: Rolland]
#151553 - 23/01/10 09:48 AM

1. Falun is a town in Sweden.
2. "U under crown" is a German proofmark. Here we have "U under star", this is the pesonal mark of a Liege, Belgium proofhouse inspector.
3. Despite the germanic name, "Neumann" never was a German gunmaker! There were instead three gunmaking companies named Neumann in Liege, Belgium.
Neumann, Ernest, 1890 - 1905
Neumann, Max, 1924-1946
Neumann, Freres & Cie (brothers and Co)1860 - 1954
Krupp steel was of internationally renowned quality. Krupp sold barrel blanks to all European gunmaking centers, Suhl, Ferlach, Liege and even London. Jeffery's first .600 Nitro Express db had Krupp steel barrels!
So there is no hint that this gun ever was in Germany!

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by kuduae (23/01/10 09:50 AM)

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Rolland
.333 member

Reged: 31/12/06
Posts: 281
Loc: Camp Verde, AZ

Re: 16 guage european shotgun id [Re: kuduae]
#151656 - 24/01/10 02:28 PM

Thanks for the information, at least I know now what I have.

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Kiwi_bloke
.333 member

Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand

Re: 16 guage european shotgun id [Re: Rolland]
#158066 - 02/04/10 07:35 AM

Perron symbol means Belgian made.

O in script means 1936 proof. (Prooved under rules adopted 1924).

CHOKE 16.9 means barrel diameter 16.9mm (0.665") 22 cm in front of the breech.

ELG means proved in city of Liege.

PV with lion means powder without smoke, (i.e. smokeless).

16/65 means short chambered 16 gauge; 65mm / 2,1/2" long cases, (not 70mm / 2,3/4").

U star is the countermark of the proof controller.

Wapen Depoten falun import: a Swedish retailer of firearms.

Neumann & Cie in Liege made a very similar looking safety gun, which is perhaps what this is. See photos in the littlegun.be website under "identified craftsmen".

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Kiwi_bloke
.333 member

Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand

Re: 16 guage european shotgun id [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
#158067 - 02/04/10 07:38 AM

Also, the weight in Kg on the barrels should pretty much still be their weight today, unless they've been honed out or altered.

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Sville
.400 member

Reged: 23/03/10
Posts: 1189
Loc: Sweden

Re: 16 guage european shotgun id [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
#158103 - 02/04/10 07:05 PM

Here is the frontpage from Vapendepotens catalogue from 1984. A few years after they disappeared. As said they were importers of weapons, often of low quality from Spain and Belgium. But they also sold more exclusive rifles and shotguns from Husqvarna, Sako, Valmet, Tikka.

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